My astro society membership...are my day's numbered?

[cloudbuster]

After years of whitnessing a large number of people leave my local astro society (all for near enough the same reasons), i was finally prompted to post the following rant on it's messaging board. In the light of this, i should like to know if SGL members think that i should start looking for a new dark site asap??!!!! The rant is as follows:

Astro society’s...don’t curb your enthusiasm....especially towards beginners!

I have been a member of BAS on two occassions. Firstly in about 1998 and again from about 2007/8 to the present, and whilst there are some truely smashin’ peops at the club, a recent realisation has prompted me to voice a few concerns.

During an 18 month period, we lost AT LEAST 14 MEMBERS, all of which had a genuine enthuisiasm to meet new people with a similar interest. 12 of which voiced to me their gripes:

They felt (rightly or wrongly) ignored and marginalized, and that they couldn’t really join-in any of the conversations, as they felt effectively ‘locked-out’, unable to relate to what was being spoken about. These people were all ordinary but quite pleasant people, some of which i have remained in touch with. Some left after only one visit, citing that they thought the club ’aloof’. In my own view, there is nothing particularly wrong with talking about astro related topics in-depth, but we cannot afford to take our eye off the ball, and need to give those newcomers a leg- up as it were...surely this is common sense, for the sake of the future growth of the society.

There was little (if any basic advice) about what scope to buy, and how to operate it effectively (something that has been touched on by others). One of my friends told me that when he asked a member if he had a scope, came the reply, ‘oh no, i don’t have a telescope’, and he walked away (it is known that the member has 2 scopes at least!!!)...so much for sharing knowledge. As for myself, I have detected a distinct lack of enthusiasm for a number of people’s efforts and enthusiasm. As you may well know, i like to use failand for my imaging, and sometimes voice my dissapointment (albeit affectionately) at not having anyone up there to share the experience with...and of course i understand that people may be busy / tired, but it seems ironic that of the people i meet up there, 4 of these are ex-members! Surely, had things been a bit different, these could of been fayre paying passengers??!!!

I am, like the other 14 people who left, an ordinary person,...with a passion for imaging the heavens....a hobby within which I should like to make improvements. Whilst i admit it is not everyone’s cup of tea, i am however keen to meet people with an enthusiasm for astronomy and who are willing to talk about their experiences. I don’t care if they are unemployed with tattoos, or a university lecturer. I want to belong to, not any society...THIS SOCIETY. There are, after all, some really nice people here.

Very sorry if this is seen as a rant.

cheers

bob

[tomo]

Are your days numbered? I sincerely hope not!

I know that these things can be difficult, especially if, like me, you are a bit shy. I think that this is note to us all to reach out to all members, to engage them in discussion, to promote our hobby in the best way possible. We need perseverence on both sides.

[pete_l]

I doubt that "your days are numbered". Though some other members might reasonably question why you'd still wish to attend. But I'm sure they'd all be happy to accept your subscriptions .

The other question they might have is "what would you suggest?". That is a very fair question to ask and it's highly likely that whatever reply you give, you will be assumed to be volunteering to put into action. So, what are you prepared to do to improve the friendliness and approachability of your club?

Since I'm not in your club I can offer some suggestions without having to follow them through into action . I'd propose the following:

• A member (almost certainly you) should act as mentor or guide for newbies. You'd be their "voice" in the club and get them in contact with the club members who have interests that the new members want to know about.
  
• Someone (guess who?) could put together some guides / brochures. Such as basic "anatomy" of a telescope. Maybe a facebook - in the traditional sense: mugshots of members and a short biog. of their interests.
  
• Arrange a part of each session, maybe just around a table depending on how many starters there are each month) to chat about beginner-level stuff
  
• A list of web assets that are handy and instructive. Possibly including this place, other forums, online suppliers, star maps, online magazines - you get the idea. Since your club obviously has a website, some information that's pertinent to starters on there, too.
  
• [ Added later ] If you have a real astronomy shop in the vicinity, you could approach them and ask if they'd be willing to hold an "open day" or evening for the new members - maybe get the shop to come to one of your meetings with some demo gear. Explain that there are some starters at your club who are interested in knowing what telescopes and equipment to buy. With luck the astro shop will hear the sound of cash tills a-ringing. Maybe team up with any neighbouring clubs (though this is usually considered treachery among club "old-timers, and as an attempt to poach by the other clubs) to get a decent number of potential customers.
  

The key is to break down the barriers. I've been a member of a few astro clubs in my time, and I've left them all. They do have a tendency to be more like social clubs for the old-timers, many of whom resent newcomers as it upsets their little world. There's also the question of the format of club meetings. Many times I found that all it ever was, was a gathering of the "usual suspects" who'd chat among themselves. Then there'd be a lecture - generally on a subject I had no interest in, then a tea-break followed by more "in-crowd" chatting, possibly some club business then home to bed.

[Stargazer_00]

I attended a local club a few times to see if it was worthwhile and to be quite honest I think I just prefer sitting in my garden alone :/ sad I know but there it is.

[onesmallstep]

Hi

Unfortunately some societies can be run as clubs for the benefit of a few elitist members who view newbies as trespassers. This approach is self-defeating as membership declines to the extent where the society cannot function efficiently and services suffer, possibly with the end result of closure.

If you're still interested in joining a club / society search under 'fedastro' on the 'net. This is the Federation of Astronomical Societies and they have a list of member societies via a link. Failing that either join and/or form an SGL astro club, find other members on the sub-forum, and arrange to meet up at a suitable site (having gained permission in advance if applicable).

Good luck.

[Steve]

I cannot comment on your club because I am not a member but I can say the main reason SGL grew so quickly in the early days (other than Ant's tireless enthusiasm and dedication) is that members actively welcomed newcomers and beginners while other forums focused more on their existing experienced members.

As SGL grew we feared our members would tire of helping beginners and form cliques or even their own forums where they could meet without the challenge of helping others climb the ladder. That has occasionally happened but fortunately a large majority still post today and continue to offer a helping hand to others entering this wonderful hobby

Beginners are the lifeblood of any hobby based forum or society.

[bamus]

I attended a local club a few times to see if it was worthwhile and to be quite honest I think I just prefer sitting in my garden alone :/ sad I know but there it is.

same here.

don’t like organised structure, scheduled meetings, fees, etc. I would prefers to have a small group of blokes meeting whenever there is clear weather with telescopes doing observing or imaging with bier or coke in the hand.

Remember it was so hard to talk to old members of the club, perhaps it was age difference, perhaps something else... now I enjoy lonely sessions in my back garden with my cat J

[Mike73]

I cannot comment on your club because I am not a member but I can say the main reason SGL grew so quickly in the early days (other than Ant's tireless enthusiasm and dedication) is that members actively welcomed newcomers and beginners while other forums focused more on their existing experienced members.

As SGL grew we feared our members would tire of helping beginners and form cliques or even their own forums where they could meet without the challenge of helping others climb the ladder. That has occasionally happened but fortunately a large majority still post today and continue to offer a helping hand to others entering this wonderful hobby

Beginners are the lifeblood of any hobby based forum or society.

Does that mean we are allowed a SW group section on the forum Steve?

[Steve]

Does that mean we are allowed a SW group section on the forum Steve?

The difficulty with groups (based on brands) is that they are separate from the main forum so prevent useful information being seen by other SGL members.

Groups are primarily for members to organise local get-togethers. They are perfect for discussing meets, programs, events and so on. And they are free so clubs and societies no longer need to pay for and maintain their own website. The Swindon Stargazers and East Midlands Stargazers are good examples. They started with their own Group here on SGL

EDIT: When you say 'SW' I assumed you were saying 'SkyWatcher'. Did you mean South-West?

[Beulah]

I have tried the astro groups in my area but have found them 'unsuitable' for what I need and what I can offer to the Societies at this moment in time. In the future - I don't know. But I would far prefer observing on my own or with a small group of locals.

However, a common theme runs through all clubs and groups of people - newbies will be marginalised for a while and it's advantageous to gird one's loins, have a friendly disposition and people will become accustomed to you - eventually you'll be in the fold.

When that day comes don't forget the newbies....

[Mike73]

The difficulty with groups (based on brands) is that they are separate from the main forum so prevent useful information being seen by other SGL members.

Groups are primarily for members to organise local get-togethers. They are perfect for discussing meets, programs, events and so on. And they are free so clubs and societies no longer need to pay for and maintain their own website. The Swindon Stargazers and East Midlands Stargazers are good examples. They started with their own Group here on SGL

EDIT: When you say 'SW' I assumed you were saying 'SkyWatcher'. Did you mean South-West?

Appreciate the reply Steve.

I did actually mean South West.

Although there are several Astro societies in the SW I've always been put off them as every few months a thread like this crops up.

I just don't think its my cuppa tea really anyway and I know there are others which feel the same way.

A SW group on here would be great to share dark site locations and just to meet like minded people who you can arrange informal viewing sessions with. Just somewhere to post something like 'hey clear skies tonight, want to meet at xyz?' would be amazing.

I go to dark sites probably 80% of the time and always on my own as I don't know anyone else to go with, and some people wouldn't dream of going out on there own and are missing so much because of it!

There was anther thread a while ago about it and a couple Mods (sorry can't remember who?!) mentioned that something may be put in place when the new forum gets up and running.

I know you guys are always busy keeping the forum running smoothly and have more to worry about than a bunch of Cornish/Devon pasty munching stargazers but please don't forget us.

[Phil Fargaze]

Have you considered starting your own club, perhaps with some of the people who left the original club? You could do this not to spite or be in competition with the other club but at least you could strive for a club with a different outlook.

[x6gas]

I joined the Abingdon Astro Society last year, although I failed to renew this - despite intending to do so - because I've just been so darn busy at work.

That said it was very welcoming. They hold regular beginners meetings (free to all for the first one) on various topics (e.g. on binos where experienced members had brought along loads of different types including huge 90mm jobs and stabilized pairs so you could actually handle them to understand that there is a limit to what you can hold to your eyes for any period).

They have a cup of tea and a chat at half-time and some members nip to a local pub afterwards. I have to say that the experienced members there seem to go out of their way to talk to and welcome new faces.

I will definitely be rejoining next term...

[smitandy]

Hi, I have just attended my first lecture of my local society and feeling apprehensive about the evening, however all members were very welcoming and chatty, just about kept up with the lecture and we all had good conversation in the bar later, so looking forward to next one and cheerio to the clicky camera club who couldn't be bothered to talk to me

[sanmatt]

I joined the Abingdon Astro Society last year, although I failed to renew this - despite intending to do so - because I've just been so darn busy at work.

That said it was very welcoming. They hold regular beginners meetings (free to all for the first one) on various topics (e.g. on binos where experienced members had brought along loads of different types including huge 90mm jobs and stabilized pairs so you could actually handle them to understand that there is a limit to what you can hold to your eyes for any period).

They have a cup of tea and a chat at half-time and some members nip to a local pub afterwards. I have to say that the experienced members there seem to go out of their way to talk to and welcome new faces.

I will definitely be rejoining next term...

I have met those chaps at the public outreach night at Science Oxford a few months back, and they are, as you say, very welcoming. A terrific bunch of folk, always happy to chat or explain etc.

I havent yet joined a formal group. Just my own Witney locals group.

[x6gas]

I have met those chaps at the public outreach night at Science Oxford a few months back, and they are, as you say, very welcoming. A terrific bunch of folk, always happy to chat or explain etc.

I havent yet joined a formal group. Just my own Witney locals group.

Yes I'm feeling really guilty that I didn't renew even though it's been pretty impossible for me to actually attend any meetings this year!

I think the regular beginners meetings really set the tone and the ones I went to were well attended by experienced members too.

see: http://www.abingdonastro.org.uk/prog1112.htm for what I mean...

[ObscuredbyClouds]

Can i ask a question (ooops just did lol)

What is the payment for towards ANY club from the "Fayre paying passengers" ?

Myself as a newbie am totally put off for some of the reasons the OP has stated. There is nothing I/WE (family) would love nothing more to attend a SGL SP and meet and chat about a few things. But i ask myself, will they be bothered?

Not a go @ SGL btw ,i just dont want to join a club to be ignored which most clubs will cus they may think, jee a bono if ive said this once ive said it a thousand times lol.

People like that often put newcomers off, and for what, a total lack of respect for someone who would like to learn a few things to get them started. They were like that once. Dont undertsand why pay, do you meet at a dark site which is not free? Is it to cover brewing tackle? Pay to be ignored?

As stated not a go @ SGL, that was an example, even though club members do come on here.

[sanmatt]

I don't actually know, as Im not in a formal one though I;d guess it was to pay for speakers perhaps. but my local group is free - how can I possibly charge any of us setting up in a dark car park?!!

[RikM]

My local society were very welcoming and helpful when I joined. We have an organised talk once a month and then a more informal session after a tea break maybe showing pictures or observing if it is clear. There are also organised observing evenings throughout the winter months. We do make a point of trying to engage newcomers and make them feel included.

Meeting and sharing my enthusiasm for the hobby is my main reason for remaining a member. The talks I can take or leave, most of them don't interest me too much but the interaction with like-minded, intelligent people is priceless. We are planning on holding a couple of 'beginners' workshops later in the year, separate from the regular meetings. Basically an 'observing' and an 'imaging' one. Just need to get on and organise them now

[RikM]

Room hire, speaker's fees, newsletter printing, av equipment, FAS fees, insurance, posters etc...it all adds up. For less than the cost of a decent restaurant meal, I think it's a bargain.

[pete_l]

What is the payment for towards ANY club from the "Fayre paying passengers" ?

For a start, there's the cost of hiring a hall for the monthly meetings. If the club has any equipment, there are always incidental costs towards its upkeep, storage etc. Maybe even an additional cost towards rent for an observatory.

If the club does not have any kit, it may be saving up to buy some for the members to use.

There are also costs for publicity material, outreach programmes (open observing nights) and as mentioned, even a small fee for guest speakers.

[ObscuredbyClouds]

For a start, there's the cost of hiring a hall for the monthly meetings. If the club has any equipment, there are always incidental costs towards its upkeep, storage etc. Maybe even an additional cost towards rent for an observatory.

If the club does not have any kit, it may be saving up to buy some for the members to use.

There are also costs for publicity material, outreach programmes (open observing nights) and as mentioned, even a small fee for guest speakers.

So if i turned up with my own scope just wanting a little help in finding things better (dont forget i havent got the equiptment most of you guys have ie laptop for stellarium on site) and didnt want to listen to a speaker (no offence) because what they are probably talking about would go right over my head because its for the experienced person, i would have to pay?

Publicity material? There is supposed to be a astro club around here so i found out from here, i get more publicity from the local chinese and indian take-aways than that. Whats up with free internet?

A club is definatleynot the thing for me then, i just want to see a totally dark sky for the first time in my life, be able to extend my eye to the sky, and if i get stuck say, oi bazza which bloomin one again lol, and have a bier and laugh lol

I best add not everyone will be like that im sure, but from a newcomers eyes, they only have to see one not so good report and boom its over for em.

[The Sailor]

I have to agree with you Bob, I joined my local group and came to realise quite quickly that although they were very keen for new members to join and did a lot of advertising they did not give support of any kind. I got on the committee and put my feelings forward about the highbrow lectures they featured but nothing to help any newcommers with regards to equipment or practical help, a few mutterings about maybes turned to nothing. I have left now and having my own observatory am happy but do wish I could have helped the younger people I met earlier who turned away from the group. Just an addon, what annoyed me most was that the highups in the group would arrive at a viewing evening on their bicycles, armed with torches and nothing else and start waving the damn things about showing all and sundry the nights sky ruining everyones night vision, less said the better!!

Jim

[rory]

interesting thread indeed. i have been activley useing telescopes for about 14 months,and ideally should be attending one of the two local astro clubs ,to get a better understanding of equipment first hand . maybe sit in on some talks to try and understand some other areas of this vast subject. but this is just the very reason i cant do it. i just get by learning off books, and internet, with this forum being number one for reference .

in all honesty i dont think an official astro club would be my bag.

which is a shame. not that im slating my local clubs,ive not been ,so i cant judge.

[Antscope]

sounds familiar...our club do all this outreach at libraries and other events yet the majority of its members are insular aloof ignorant etc etc and so its shed large amounts of people yearly, quite backward really.