Light Pollution - The shape of things to come...?

[AndyUK]

Hi all - In light of the e-petition (sorry about the pun!), I thought I'd contact the local council (Bath and NE Somerset) to see what their plans were... They were very helpful, BUT...

I currently have those big horrible orange jobs, but my LP filters can cut them out pretty well... although the 4 that shine directly into my garden are a right royal pain!

The response I got back was that there is indeed a plan to replace the majority of them within this area over the next 2 years... with LED streetlights. They sent me 2 links:

Council unveils UK¿s first LED street lights | Mail Online

Smart street-lighting provides roundabout solution | Technology | The Guardian

Here's a link to a spectrum analysis of the various streetlights about (scroll to P5 - http://www.darkskiesawareness.org/files/PTarticle_Lighting&Astronomy.pdf)

Obviously the focus of these articles is on budget saving and being greener... but I have to say I'm a bit nervous about these LED lights as it would appear that they're more or less full spectrum and therefore much harder to cut out - I doubt my Astronomik Clip filter or my IDAS will be of much use when they come in .

If anyone has any experience of these LED lights, is there any comfort you can give me (or any others about to get them?)

[Tinker1947]

Dersingham in Norfolk has just gone over to LED type lighting, the orange glow i used to see some 5 miles away has gone, my village has had the same lighting on the main B Road through the village and a couple of orange lights i used to see some 150yrd away have gone, the back garden/area in now darker and its a nice improvement, they are supposed to be turned off over night but i haven't been out there due to the clouds ect to find out...

[SFlowers]

The ones I have seen make a massive difference to the orange glow. I'm not sure what it would be like if one was shining directly into your garden but they just light up the area they need to - pointing down and not up into the sky. A street near us has them and it's much better.

[RikM]

We have had a commitment from Gloucester council that they will NOT be introducing LED lighting. They ran a small trial and found the cost of installing new lights outweighed the savings and the light output was really bad for the residents. They are using a combination of dimming and part-night lighting with existing lights in the future.

And I am very grateful for that

[swag72]

So as long as you keep nicely above them you should not be bothered by their effect?

[umadog]

I too am nervous about these lights. Most anecdotal reports are the same as those above (i.e. the orange glow has gone and stuff is darker). However, I've also read the odd report of the lights being super bright ("like daylight") so if you're near to such a light it can be a disaster.

I am concerned about the brightness and about the broad spectrum. Light spilling up from the fitting is obviously the main problem but light does also reflect up from the ground. This will happen more with these LEDs since they're so much brighter. As LEDs become brighter and more common we may start to see a white glow that will be hard to filter out.

Hopefully it will work out for the best...

[Psychobilly]

My limited experience of them is that underneath them is a lot brighter and darker above if the ground underneath was Dry and Dark. It meant I didn't need to use lights to setup and strip down the kit and could even read the starcharts by it...

As an imager I am usually not that bothered about preserving my dark adaption if I am out on my own...its different if I am out as part of a group though...

Theres good cutoff above the lights until the ground gets wet or shinny....

Peter...

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[Ibbo!]

My limited experience of them is that underneath them is a lot brighter and darker above if the ground underneath was Dry and Dark. It meant I didn't need to use lights to setup and strip down the kit and could even read the starcharts by it...

As an imager I am usually not that bothered about preserving my dark adaption if I am out on my own...its different if I am out as part of a group though...

Theres good cutoff above the lights until the ground gets wet or shinny....

Peter...

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I've noticed the same as you Peter

I agree completely about the wet and shiny as I can see the difference here

I dread the day when they continue up the street and replace the yellow blob at the end of my garden for one of the white light lanterns(next year by all accounts) much as I hate the yellow blob and its mates after replacement I think that will call an end to any imaging let alone visual

They are according to the lighting engineer are full cut off's

no the aren't they are semi's which have a rather large flood area which will include my garden

So much for my little victory when they agreed to do something about the yellow blob-a bit of black paint around the rear did next to nothing so the fishing pole is still in operation

Steve

[AndyUK]

Cheers all... Thanks very much for the anecdotes and thoughts. I guess that, in my case, I'm going to have to wait and see what effect they'll have.

There are currrently 4 low pressure sodium lights that shine into my garden, but by careful positioning of the mount 2 can be blocked out by houses and in the summer the other 2 can be blocked out by trees. On other parts of the estate they fitted high pressure sodium lights (with much better "down-focus") and I was hoping those would be the replacements...

My available sky is fairly limited anyway (and a neighbour's tree two gardens over is now starting to remove lower parts of the NNE). I bought a pier about a month ago, with plans to put decking around it - I was going to start it all when the weather started improving... but maybe I'd better think about this a bit more before going through all the expense. (I wish our lot had taken the stance of Gloucester and gone for keeping the existing sgtreetlights and a switch off policy...)

[Whippy]

They're installing these streetlights as we speak around here. They're good in that they don't shine anywhere near as much light upwards as the old Sodium lights do, I think that's down to better design rather than the type of lighting. But I can see issues when it's a bit damp (as it often is) when the light gets sprayed upwards. Hopefully, one of the filter makers are in the process of evaluating and possibly in the process of making a LP filter that'll be a batter match for LED's rather than the traditional lights. Either that or it's narrowband all the way for urban imagers...

Tony..

[AndyUK]

Hopefully, one of the filter makers are in the process of evaluating and possibly in the process of making a LP filter that'll be a batter match for LED's rather than the traditional lights.

I hope that's possible Tony... but if you look at the spectrum, it goes all the way over R, G and B

Either that or it's narrowband all the way for urban imagers...

I think that may well be the case... I'm beginning to feel that us amateur backyard astronomers are fighting a losing battle and we're simply being chased out of existence...

[Whippy]

Last year they installed two astroturf 5 a side pitches in the school behind my house and it's basically ruined my north view, I could complain but I think it'd be churlish and possibly ruin what's good for a lot people for my own benefit. I'd rather try and work around things like this as we live in a town and we're not moving anytime soon.

FWIW, LED's do make an excellent lighting solution. I keep fish as an 'everyday' hobby and they're now making huge strides in that side of things with many benefits.

Tony..

[kirsty]

FWIW, LED's do make an excellent lighting solution. I keep fish as an 'everyday' hobby and they're now making huge strides in that side of things with many benefits.

Tony..

I was going to mention that lol, i keep marines and led is a hell of alot more powerful/brighter and i feel these could be worse than normal streetlights especially when wet or snow in the winter especially when you want your scope out. I would not like to imagine the glare off the snow with led.

just my pennies worth

[Whippy]

Spot on Kirsty, but at the end of the day there are so many benefits with LED's that it's an easy argument that it's for the greater good, especially in towns and cities.

I'm looking into LED's for one of my reef tanks. Initially not cheap but long term, they look like they're going to be the obvious choice .

Tony..

[kirsty]

Spot on Kirsty, but at the end of the day there are so many benefits with LED's that it's an easy argument that it's for the greater good, especially in towns and cities.

I'm looking into LED's for one of my reef tanks. Initially not cheap but long term, they look like they're going to be the obvious choice .

Tony..

Yes there are benefits of course, but will they see it as a benefit when being replaced from kids smashing them lol ? The initial outlay is the most as you will know regarding any led, yes there greener,yes there cheaper to run, but your not replacing streetlights every 6 months are you ? So is it cost effective ?

Off topic again sorry OP, i like led for reef keeping but i have to admit i prefer T5 better, i currently run 6 T5 . . . my bad lol

[garethmob]

the reef tank LED's are good i made my own with some leds i bought from an american site, not cheap but cheaper than buying, any way if the street lights have the same power as my reef lights did theres no hope for us at all in my street we have all the orange lights but they are all masked off for the residents, in my arden its pretty dark, ut the glow in the distance (i live in middle of newport) is a orange soup enough to hide orion totally

[PeterW]

Bluer light is more efficient and better for hazard awareness, so better than the horrid orange/yellow. The common point for any light is that you only use the minimumight needed to do the job and you make sure it oh goes where it is needed, light out NEAR the horizontal is what causes most of the skyglow. Dimming and turnIng off after midnight should also be done anyway.

I am hoping for some inner city councils to start taking this seriously, then everyone will benefit. Narrowband will be least affected by led, I'd talk nice to the council and get some of the lights shielded, I did and it made things a little better.

Best of luck

PEterW

[garethmob]

Here's one very important thing that iv noticed.

In south Wales there's a rounderbout just off the a470 called fiddlers elbow. It's in Merthyr councils area and has its lights upgraded to white LEDs

Now I found it extremely dangerous

In the middle of the rounderbout there's a lot of trees plants blocking the exit directly oppersite (second) so at night you come to it check if there's anything coming to 3rd exit (my first) and because of the white lights you can't actually see car lights as its so bright. You can't see them through the plants on the bout either. So one major drawback

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[rory]

this thread as just spurred me on to e mail my local council about putting some shields or turn off lights after midnight on our housing estate. one orange light stays on allnight for a path that leads to three houses,one of which is mine. its a few metres from my sons bedroom window. theres no need for pathways to be lit all night long.

there are the new led lights fitted on the road next to my house,they do direct more light down and not out,a good thing ,but if they get in your line of sight they are very bright indeed.

hope the council do something with my street lights though,even dimming them or painting the covers.

[chownsie]

Very lucky here that my garden backs onto other back gardens, so not a street lamp in sight. The misses did accidently turn back on the security light last weekend which nearly blinded me in the right eye!!!

[Stu Skywatcher]

We have had the new lights fitted in my road. I've attached a couple of pics to show the difference, both taken at about 2 in the morning. The new lights do dim from 11 or midnight for the rest of the night, which is good but they are so bright when they first come on it is almost like daylight.

The 'orange' pic was a 1sec exposure and the 'white' one a 2sec exposure. So it is darker once they are dimmed than with the older lights.

[ArmyAirForce]

I've got two orange street lights in the street behind mine, which shine past the house behind mine and into my garden. I'm planning on getting some thick black fabric a couple of feet tall, which can be stretched between two posts and attached to my garden fence. It will be unhooked from the fence when I'm not observing.

It won't stop sky glow, which ever street lights are installed, but it will stop me accidentally looking at them, as their light just skims over the top of my fence, casting bright light, right at eyepiece height. It ruins night vision if you happen to glance that way, but also makes it difficult to view with longer relief eye pieces.

Other than that, there's little I can do to improve viewing from my garden. Unfortunately I'm in one of the brightest hotspots for light pollution. This was Orion from my garden at the end of March, without any pollution filter.

[pel]

I'm in the process of making a very similar screen at the moment. From another thread on here it was suggested I use weed matting for it(2 layers) as it is designed to block out light.