advice needed on a paypal gift sale & abusive buyer

[steve51450]

A friend of mine recently sold a atik filter wheel on astro buy sell the wheel was in full working order with no problems whatsoever & was paid via the paypal gift function. He sold the wheel with no problems at all until he got an email saying it had no drivers. My friend then sent the link to the drivers on the atik site to him and thought no more of it. It now seems the wheel no longer works (strange that) several emails later and he is now being threatened by the buyer with all sorts of actions etc etc in a non too polite manner!

my friend has explained that he will be out of the country for 2 months within a day or so, and has asked him to post the wheel back to me and i can refund him the money on his behalf but the buyer is not happy with this and wants a full refund before he sends the goods back. He has been nothing but abusive and rude as well as call the sellers integrity into question. I have now found out who the buyer is and his reputation on forums is not the best to say the very least & i would have advised him not to sell to this individual had i known beforehand. Not that i have any bad feelings against him myself. its just i am long enough in the tooth to know him from UKAI as well as SGL.

where does the seller stand in circumstances like this ?

he has agreed to refund upon receipt of the goods back even though there is nothing wrong with them but the buyer is less than happy with this?

is the seller quite within his rights to tell the buyer politely to go away unless he sends the item back for a refund

the buyer has all my personal details to send the item back including my work address personal email address etc etc so no form of fraud or underhandedness was taking place

The buyer is getting more and more abusive with every email and is now threatening to get card companies involved and asking for home address's

cheers for any advice

Mods if this post is against any rules or could be misconstrued in anyway please remove at your discretion as i would not want to upset, i am simply after advice as the best way to deal with this for a close friend

[acey]

I'm not a lawyer, but as this was a private transaction I believe it is not covered by the Sale of Goods Act. By offering a full refund once the item is returned you're already offering more than you're legally obliged to. If the buyer isn't prepared to send the item back then don't give a refund or have anything more to do with him. Harrassment is a crime, so if it continues you could threaten legal action. Ask paypal for further advice, and maybe try Citizens Advice.

[SlipperySquid]

With him sending the money as a "Gift" I don't think he is covered by paypal AND I think you are being more than helpfull in offering a full refund on return of the goods (Which all companies do, return the good adn we'll return the cash shimples!) Unless of course there is noticable damage to the goods in which case maybe that's where the reluctance to return the item is stemming from! No doubt he could then blame the postal service.

As long as you have records of all emails etc and the blatant abuse you are in good stead.

If it was me that had sold him the item and he had become abusive I would gladly have told him where to stick it with all the local northern termonoligy I could muster.

Some people want a 12 month garantee and in house repairs doing with second hand stuff nowerdays

[Tony.S]

As the payment was made as a "gift" I would have thought the the buyer has not got any rights in claiming his money back.

But on the other hand he could report you friend for selling items & asking for payment as a "gift", this could suspend his Paypal account.

There is no way that I would refund the money though until I had the item returned.

Maybe by offering to pay for return postage might help, other than that, the item might be fine & the buyer is just "trying it on"

Good luck.

[moocher]

We both know there is nothing up with the wheel.... hes a pain and always has been.....there arn`t many bad apples in this hobby but there are exceptions!!!!

Alan:)

[TheThing]

Buyer beware and all that.

[Doc]

I would tend to agree with the others. You have offered a refund on receipt of the goods, in my mind thats good enough. Counter his claims with a claim to him that you will get Paypal and the police involved if he continues to harrass you. Also save every abusive e-mail in a special folder.

[galathea]

Send him an email telling him that if the faulty item is returned within X amount of days from the purchase date (30?), a full refund will be given. The goods are returned at his expense. - this is how it's done on ebay purchases and it's up to him to pay for signatures, proof of postage etc. Tell him no further correspondence will be entered in to and mark his email address so it goes into the spam folder. AND DONT READ IT. Life is too short to deal with idiots like this, and bully tactics just don't work.

How much money are we talking about here?

Amanda

[johninderby]

I would agree, no refund until the goods are returned. I'd also set a time limit, say 14 days, for the goods to be returned and make it clear that if not returned within that time no refund will be issued. And also insist upon a shipping method with proof of delivery.

John

[moocher]

I think your being more than reasonable. If hes not prepared to send the wheel back then i would withhold payment......

Alan:)

[steve51450]

Thanks for all your replies & advice, it is most appreciated and confirms my thoughts. Its not a lot of money £140-150 but it it enough to not want to lose it for either party. I thought my friend (he has a nervous disposition) hence why i am posting, had been more than fair but just wanted to check that i was not in cloud cuckoo land. I agree with john and think 14 days return sounds the way to go although i will be opening it when it gets back to check the board over just in case its messed with as i am a little worried as to why he will not return the item before he gets a refund.

the paypal gift button is very good but i have just realized that it could also be abused by a less than scrupulous seller, I think i will be wary myself in future unless i know the seller or know of him as you could end up loosing quite a large amount of money if you are not careful

I think it could be buyer beware & also seller beware because you never know whos who either. Although I am pleased to say that most people i have dealt with have been nice honest courteous people in this hobby and long may it remain that way

steve

[Mick UK]

Steve, if the Goods were damaged in the post (altho if he asked for the drivers for the item, i would doubt it had been) then i suppose looking from his point of view, he's recieved damaged goods, and now the person (your mate) he bought the item from, now wants him to trust him sending the item back without him recieving his money..its a catch 22 situation..who trusts who?

Personally, i think he hasnt downloaded the correct drivers and assumes the wheel is broken.

I think my advice would be to ask him which drivers he's downloaded and try to offer him help in getting them set up...failing that, id asssume the item had to be signed for on delivery?..in which case, its up to him to check the items condition before signing anyway.

[Moonshane]

I agree with the comments thus far and feel the seller has been reasonable.

One way to resolve this might be to actually talk to the guy rather than email as often the wrong end of the stick being grabbed causes rapidly escalating arguments. I appreciate though if he's being abusive, the last thing you want is him to have your number but maybe it's a way round it.

it's a bit of advice after the horse has bolted but I always do a quick search of items bought and sold by a person (if available) before I buy (but to be honest not generally before I sell - I will now!) as this might reveal the 'character' of the other party.

this is all pretty much teaching grannie to suck eggs though :-/

[Tim]

I wouldnt give a refund unless you are absolutely bound to, and from what I can see, you aren't.

There was once a guy on here who bought an EQ6, blew it up with a cheap subsitute eqdir, and then returned it to OVL saying it was faulty. He was sent a new one. I think he still has a "business" astromodding DSLRs, so buyer beware allright. SOunds like the same sort of guy

Sometimes peoples reputation for dishonesty precedes them, and the internet has made the trading world a lot smaller place.

Please let us know if the person in question has made any approaches via SGL, as we have banned several of his attempts to leech on the UK's busiest astro site already, and will continue to do so.

TJ

[Euan]

Steve you've done everything right as far as I'm concerned

I've sold quite a lot of stuff and it's always in the back of my mind what would happen if the goods didn't work at the other end. You've got a hope that the receiver has enough savvy to distinguish between common user error and faulty equipment

If anyone has access to the Atik Yahoo Group there is a thread just popped up about this, so the person is now getting advice and will hopefully sort it out

It just begs the question why did they not just ask politely "it looks like it's not working, any ideas of what I could try" instead of going on the offensive

It didn't take much to figure out who you were talking about, duly noted

[TheThing]

For those of us who don't know the buyer, are there any hints of what to look out for to avoid him/her? Obviously short of naming them!

[Psychobilly]

Paypal recently updated there T&C's with repect to gift payments the changes are due to come into effect in the next few weeks...

whilst its noramally a case of "buyer beware"... there are a few rare occasions when "seller beware" may be more appropriate

[Deneb]

Steve, you have been very fair, even though you are not obliged to give a refund & there's no need for the buyer to be abusive. But it does sound funny though, that it was working supplied & after him downloading the drivers it doesn't work. Im wondering if he had tried doing a firmware update on it (if there is one for a filter wheel). I would only refund his money only on receipt of the returned goods & that they returned it in the condition it was sent.

Nadeem.

[david61]

Hi Guys i just wanted to let you know the out *** and maybe get some advice

the seller paid for the filter wheel using is MasterCard to is paypal then sent me payment as a gift then he clammed on is MasterCard MasterCard then put the claim into paypal its called a charge back AND HE HAS GOT IT THE REFUND

paypal have now put extra charges on me for the charge back and my paypal is in the red because I'm refusing to pay them

he is also refusing to send the filter wheel to me even at my cost

i have an appointment next week with the police because i think this is theft and deception ?

if anyone can give advice please do so in a pm please

all the best

David

[Mick UK]

I know its no help in this case, but after reading through this post, perhaps it would be a good idea if admin stopped people from selling goods and wanting payment as a "gift"....would'nt all this have beencovered and solved by PayPal if it had been done "legit" in the first place?

[GazOC]

TBH Mick SGL makes a point of staying out of the Buy/ Sell transactions as much as possible. Its not really our "call" what arrangements people come to over payments, delivery etc.

[david61]

Maybe if the guy just return the item when he was asked to and get is refund this would have been sorted out a long time ago

now its going to get very messy

paypal gift is a good thing just don't abuse it and you have to trust but thats hard to do in this day

[barkis]

I will always pay the fee rather than send a gift payment.

I like to think I have protection if a deal should goes pear shaped, so I will add a percentage to the price asked.

Ron.

[david61]

i dont think its good to say names on the forum

and round up a few friends not a good idea and if i wanted too i can do it on my own

but thank for the advice

[Mick UK]

"TBH Mick SGL makes a point of staying out of the Buy/ Sell transactions as much as possible. Its not really our "call" what arrangements people come to over payments, delivery etc."

I can understand that Gaz, but personally been the honest sort i feel a bit underpressure buying things from people who in all intents and purposes are genuine sellers, only to inform them that i wont pay as a "gift".

Makes me feel a bit awkward to be honest, id find it much better if the rules stated anyone selling equipment using PayPal must not ask for payment to be made as a "gift"..after all, it is breaking Paypal rules and i suppose a comparison could be made to allowing people to use your house for illegal dealings with your consent?.

It might be worth considering Gaz as PayPal are become more proactive in the way the are making rules reguarding transactions etc, and people are now starting to receive bans for it.