Ladies : Wow a hobby with ladies and pretty ones too

[lulu57]

I've got to say that I hardly ever meet with sexism: (apart from the odd tongue-in-cheek comment, which I will make about men too, so fair's fair!).

I think most intelligent men are beyond that kind of stuff anyway.

The last time I met with blatant sexism was at a cricket club, and frankly, I was invading their territory, so I had no inclination to kick up a stink. I felt quite sorry for them really.

[lulu57]

Lemon drizzle is a particular fave with my erstwhile colleagues in the office. Personally I don't think you can go wrong with a good old-fashioned fruit cake (and yes Sybil, that probably is a rather apt description of me!) If you want stars on it I'm sure I can oblige.

Lemon drizzle with stars! Yes please!:D

[ashenlight]

Lemon drizzle cake sounds divine. I often make fairy cakes and then turn them into mini victoria sponges, yum yum.

Any cake, of course, requires copious amounts of tea.

[wingman]

Quite right Amanda. My tea never seems as nice as Mrs W's though.

[MartinB]

Men are from Mars, women from Venus and all that. The generalisations tend to hold true. Men are obsessed by gear, utterly obsessed. It is great that we are getting more female input into the forum, certainly adds to the range and quality of discussion.

Although nothing beats a "Best CCD chip?" thread

A microlensed KAF-3200 btw

[ashenlight]

Quite right Amanda. My tea never seems as nice as Mrs W's though.

Always tastes better if someone else has made it for you

[michigoose]

LOL_Lulu - Do I come across as a real nerd? Pinchbeck specs and pinched face?

In fact I went into computers like so many of my generation because the one thing we simply couldn't stomach was the idea of a boring respectable profession.

Michigoose seems to be describing herself as someone who maintains focus on a single concept in her work

Not really. Building commercial computer applications uses a host of different talents, interests and stimuli throughout the life-cycle of any project.

Initially - interviewing and fact-finding (meeting lots of varied people - pen-pushers to corporate strategists - and being curious to understand what they do and why);

- then analysing and building a 'logically clean' model of the facts (hopefully exploiting any associated opportunities and resolving any existing problems) ;

- then designing an empirical system which reflects that model;

- then writing technical specifications to translate that empirical system into computer procedures;

- then (and only then) getting down to the machine, and programming instructions to make it do what you want it to do;

- then demonstrating the system to your customers (giving them plenty of opportunity and support to check out any aspect they please) to ensure that it works in accordance with their requirements (an opportunity to 'sell' the system to the more doubtful of your customers - if you dare);

- then documenting clearly how the system works so that both technicians and the customers can use the system without interminable calls for help (no such thing as a dedicated helpdesk in those days);

- then using the manuals you've just written to create presentations and give training to users and operators;

- then the suspense of 'go-live' date.

- FINALLY, the end of project party. Booze, food, booze, music, booze, dancing - WOW! London had some great little bistros in the late 60s.

Oops I've forgotten a bit - Project Management and Control - simply keeping all stakeholders interested, committed and up-to-date whilst you're beavering away on their behalf.

As for hobbies - I'm far too busy ...

-gardening, -needlework, -housekeeping our old, and tiny, PC (LOL - an SGL member just sold us a secondhand one which is comparatively HUGE - thanks Chris - now that I've got it set up as Michigander and I want I'll be able to find a hobby eh?), -decorating, -repairing anything that needs it, (latest - replacing leaking roof vent in our camper - it now needs that bit of recently replaced bodywork to be primed and laquered, oh - and new lightproof curtains for Salisbury - otherwise I'll be in trouble with you all), -mentoring (on the web) someone who has similar abuse issues I suffered as a child (hard work, but incredibly rewarding), -theatre, -museums, -concerts and art galleries, -showing my husband this amazingly cool country we live in - LOL - ya don't need hobbies when you're open to each and every challenge going. I used to read a lot - but almost no time now. A good thing because if a book ain't good enough to keep me absorbed and impressed I feel less guilty about abandoning it.

[lulu57]

Cool!

So you're a fellow multiple-plate spinner?!

(And I thought my job was draining...)

[michigoose]

Maybe your just culturally programmed to assume women are less competent than men so you are suprised when you find this not the case and remember the competent women and forget the incompetent ones whilst forgetting the competent men and remembering the incompetent ones. I'd be willing to bet if you took 1000 men and 1000 women they'd do the job differently from each other but the end result would be just as valid and have taken the same amount of time (unless the job was parallel parking).

We don't notice things we expect, we notice the things we weren't expecting.

Hmmm - When I first read your post I was a bit disturbed as I wondered if I'd 'rattled your cage'. On second reading, I don't think you understood my post.

Sorry, but there's no way I'm 'culturally programmed' to assume women are less competent than men. I'm female and, for a few short years, attended one of the top academic girls schools in the UK. No way was there any hint of women being less competent. In fact when I went into the big wide world I was bewildered that I, as a female, seemed to be viewed differently to my male colleagues.

In fact, my post simply stresses that, in my observations of the many people who've worked for me, and with me, women make better programmers than men. I suppose one might quibble about the definition of 'better', but my reference was commercial applications programmers. Women tend to give more attention to detail and tidyness, which produces working programs which are clearer and easier to maintain - an essential requirement in a commercial environment where changing business and statutory demands neccessitate periodic changes to programs. Men, conversely, tend to be more 'innovative' and are possibly more suited to developing system software such as network handlers and operating systems.

With regard to the end result having taken the same amount of time, I can't agree. Any Project Management training would drum into one the necessity of Quality Review and Control at every stage of a project. Not just essential to avoid disaster, but to manage the budget, since the later an error is discovered the more expensive it is to correct (sometimes by orders of magnitude). My experience is that the tidy, careful programmer may take a day longer to write a program, but the enthusiastic innovator will still be crashing around a tangled maze of code trying to find program bugs days after the 'tidy' program is fully tested and in the library awaiting release.

I'm not saying women are better, or more intelligent that men. I'm just saying that their tendency to tidyness, attention to detail, and longer attention span (Vital to keeping a mental hold on a thread of logic) makes them better programmers.

Or.... LOL - Did you think I was a man trying to suck up to the ladies here.

Parallel Parking? I'm married to an American guy who is used to wide open spaces. He tries hard here in the UK, but still occasionally gives up and lets me do it.

[Milamber]

Although nothing beats a "Best CCD chip?" thread

A microlensed KAF-3200 btw

Ooo - if only you knew...

Arthur

[Matthew.Blake]

Next star party wingman, perhaps you could make us some cakes Once I get going with knitting, I'm away, but I find starting off hard. Once I get into a rhythm, I'm fine :)Your wife sounds like a knitting connoisseur, I can just about manage basic scarves that always seem to be too short!

What cakes are your specialty?

I knitted my wife a scarf that was twice as long as she was tall for Christmas. It was pink.

[DemonicOmelette]

End of the day, men and women ARE different. We have different physiology, different brain chemistry, different upbringing. To say that men and women are equal in every way is PC rubbish. To deny our fundamental differences is, in my opinion, just as bad as judging us for them. Study after study have proven that generally men are better at some things, women at others. So let's not pretend we are all born equal in every single way, simply to be "sensitive" or politically correct.

Little rant, sorry.

Now who's going to make me a cup of tea?

[Matthew.Blake]

Hmmm - When I first read your post I was a bit disturbed as I wondered if I'd 'rattled your cage'. On second reading, I don't think you understood my post.

Sorry, but there's no way I'm 'culturally programmed' to assume women are less competent than men. I'm female and, for a few short years, attended one of the top academic girls schools in the UK. No way was there any hint of women being less competent. In fact when I went into the big wide world I was bewildered that I, as a female, seemed to be viewed differently to my male colleagues.

In fact, my post simply stresses that, in my observations of the many people who've worked for me, and with me, women make better programmers than men. I suppose one might quibble about the definition of 'better', but my reference was commercial applications programmers. Women tend to give more attention to detail and tidyness, which produces working programs which are clearer and easier to maintain - an essential requirement in a commercial environment where changing business and statutory demands neccessitate periodic changes to programs. Men, conversely, tend to be more 'innovative' and are possibly more suited to developing system software such as network handlers and operating systems.

With regard to the end result having taken the same amount of time, I can't agree. Any Project Management training would drum into one the necessity of Quality Review and Control at every stage of a project. Not just essential to avoid disaster, but to manage the budget, since the later an error is discovered the more expensive it is to correct (sometimes by orders of magnitude). My experience is that the tidy, careful programmer may take a day longer to write a program, but the enthusiastic innovator will still be crashing around a tangled maze of code trying to find program bugs days after the 'tidy' program is fully tested and in the library awaiting release.

I'm not saying women are better, or more intelligent that men. I'm just saying that their tendency to tidyness, attention to detail, and longer attention span (Vital to keeping a mental hold on a thread of logic) makes them better programmers.

Or.... LOL - Did you think I was a man trying to suck up to the ladies here.

Parallel Parking? I'm married to an American guy who is used to wide open spaces. He tries hard here in the UK, but still occasionally gives up and lets me do it.

My cage was not rattled. I just enjoy debates! (my wife calls it ranting though)

[brianb]

- then (and only then) getting down to the machine, and programming instructions to make it do what you want it to do;

- then demonstrating the system to your customers (giving them plenty of opportunity and support to check out any aspect they please) to ensure that it works in accordance with their requirements (an opportunity to 'sell' the system to the more doubtful of your customers - if you dare);

- then documenting clearly how the system works so that both technicians and the customers can use the system without interminable calls for help (no such thing as a dedicated helpdesk in those days);

WRONG ORDER.

You write the documentation FIRST, run through with the customer to make sure they're getting the product they want. When the customer has agreed the documentation (a) you can start writing the technical specification, then developing the code and/or hardware, ( the customer can start training operators - ahead of delivery of actual product.

The real problem is when the customer is the Ministry of Defence. They can never keep the specification stable for two days running - that's why MoD projects are always delivered late and with a huge cost overrun.

[Beulah]

End of the day, men and women ARE different. We have different physiology, different brain chemistry, different upbringing. To say that men and women are equal in every way is PC rubbish. To deny our fundamental differences is, in my opinion, just as bad as judging us for them. Study after study have proven that generally men are better at some things, women at others. So let's not pretend we are all born equal in every single way, simply to be "sensitive" or politically correct.

Little rant, sorry.

Now who's going to make me a cup of tea?

In my opinion, two complimentary halves of a whole, but treated as equals.

I wouldn't want men to be the same as us......

[michigander]

WRONG ORDER.

You write the documentation FIRST, run through with the customer to make sure they're getting the product they want. When the customer has agreed the documentation (a) you can start writing the technical specification, then developing the code and/or hardware, ( the customer can start training operators - ahead of delivery of actual product.

The real problem is when the customer is the Ministry of Defence. They can never keep the specification stable for two days running - that's why MoD projects are always delivered late and with a huge cost overrun.

MICHIGOOSE here! You're absolutely right,

Didn't want to repeat 'document it and agree it with users' after every other step, so put it in at the end under 'User Manual' as that's what the general public are most familiar with them. I guess it might come under the general heading of Project Management and and Control, since agreeing Interview Notes, Requirements Specs, System Specs and Progress Reports are all part of managing Customer expectations, buy-in, understanding and patience!

Ummm - how does the customer train his staff when he hasn't got a system yet? I guess preliminary re-organisations, manual procedures and such like, but to actually get the hands-on customer getting the very best out of the 'computer bit' it needs the designers and developers to give user staff the knowledge and confidence to really USE the system.

Oooh-Errr. Always turned my back on any Civil Service type project. By definition they will fail. GOOD computing is about ideas and innovation; achieving the agreed objective(s) and, perhaps suggesting additional options and benefits, in the most efficient and effective way. The Civil Service - almost by definition - are inflexible and 'rule based', and want to do it 'their' way without suggestions or input from people who think analytically, systematically and 'objective based'. That might, just, be one reason they keep wanting to change the spec. Getting it 'right' has to wait until a faint glow of an idea occurs to them months later, or they trip over another item of the '10% of the business that constitutes 90% of the system' syndrome. Maybe it's a failing of mine, but I'd EXPLODE in such an environment. How others have the patience for it I simply don't know.

To avoid any further misunderstanding from other IT people out there I should note I preferred to work in smaller installations, bureaux or consultancies taking on the complete life cycle for small to medium sized projects (big bangs don't impress me - they should be split into manageable and digestible phases, each delivering some benefit). In those circumstances the thrill of seeing it all coming together in a positive, mutually respectful team (including users and techies) atmosphere is unmatchable.

[Catanonia]

I am wearing new socks today

/What have I created with this thread

[michigander]

Speaking of buying a red torch, i've experienced just the opposite here. The Gents in the local hardware store are extremely respectful, no matter what i need.

Oh how I miss American customer service! Of course, there's a good reason why they're so ingratiating. In the States you never know who might be carrying a gun!

Seriously though, I think women do get more respect in America. Might be because American women won't tolerate that kind of attitude. They'll go somewhere where they do get respect.

Dana

[brianb]

Ummm - how does the customer train his staff when he hasn't got a system yet?

The same way you train a test pilot to fly an aircraft you haven't built yet. The same awy you train pilots to cope with emergencies hey're unlikely ever to encounter for real, but can't aford to screw up if they do. SIMULATION. Once you've designed a system, you can simulate it, write procedures, generate "what if" checklists, .... provided you have written the documentation, and provided you can eventually write code / cut metal that functions as documented. Naturally you still need a "test pilot" to write part of the documentation - the very necessary cautions, warnings and notes that become as essential part of the operating manual.

And the reason why you write the documentation first is so that the simulation can be used to iron out deficiencies in the design.

BTW: Cautions refer to actions that will kill you if you screw up. Warnings refer to actions that could cause injury or require extensive repairs. Notes refer to actions that will result in malfunctions.

[Beulah]

Seriously though, I think women do get more respect in America. Might be because American women won't tolerate that kind of attitude. They'll go somewhere where they do get respect.

Dana

A valid point. A nation that is so much younger than the UK, yet in some ways more culturally advanced.......

[lulu57]

I get reasonably good service wherever I go - (by men or women!)

It might be because I smile a lot and am polite.

And if people are a bit off-hand with me, I assume that they've got something weighty on their mind, or they're feeling a bit off-colour...

If they're rude, I quietly take my custom elsewhere...

And if they are obstructive or incompetent, I throw a wobbler! (I don't do it often, but when I do, I really mean it.)

I must say, though, that some of the best service I've experienced was in America. A few were ingratiating, but there were a lot of effortlessly friendly people as well.

I like that.

I like smilers.

[acharris77]

On the IYA course I am doing there is quite a few woman of various ages on the course, and I would say that it is virtually a 55/45 split of men and woman. I have never had a problem with women doing any hobby or job.

On the IYA course, I have picked up some useful and interesting trivia on astronomy and space in general from the woman, as much as I have from the men and vice versa. So the more woman that get interested in hobbies like Astronomy are a welcomed addition just like a man is.

[Athena]

To be honest I amazed by how many women are interested in astronomy, it's lovely and very refreshing too.

Throughout my life I have had a deep interest in the sciences and have had to deal with being involved in a very male dominated arena. Sometimes this has been funny, others it's been dame right difficult, but always challenging. I was for example the only woman during 'A' level physics

I work as a computer network specialist (specifically open source systems) which sometimes involves difficult problems compounded by difficult clients. It's a highly male dominated industry and I have to work twice as hard to get noticed.

I distinctly remember one particularly difficult problem where I was under a great deal of stress. The client said: What are you doing? Why don't you go home and make a silk scarf and let somebody else fix this problem!

I felt like scratching his eyes out

Anyway, just my thought on this thread...

Nikki

[Marmite]

I once read somewhere a few years ago that female students often outnumber male students in many university astronomy courses.

[michigoose]

The same way you train a test pilot to fly an aircraft you haven't built yet. The same awy you train pilots to cope with emergencies hey're unlikely ever to encounter for real, but can't aford to screw up if they do. SIMULATION. Once you've designed a system, you can simulate it, write procedures, generate "what if" checklists, .... provided you have written the documentation, and provided you can eventually write code / cut metal that functions as documented. Naturally you still need a "test pilot" to write part of the documentation - the very necessary cautions, warnings and notes that become as essential part of the operating manual.

And the reason why you write the documentation first is so that the simulation can be used to iron out deficiencies in the design.

BTW: Cautions refer to actions that will kill you if you screw up. Warnings refer to actions that could cause injury or require extensive repairs. Notes refer to actions that will result in malfunctions.

I think we'll have to agree to differ on this. It rings absolutely no chimes with my professional attitudes or standards. I find it so bizarre it would be funny if it didn't put me in mind of the billions of taxpayers pounds (not to mention my plundered pension) which must be wasted on this kind of thing. I now understand why your users keep changing their minds about what they want.

As I say, I'll not respond further, not least because I find your posts above patronising and condescending. YOU may think you 'should' do things in certain ways, but I am under no such obligation. Having retired after nearly 40 years of delivering systems on time, within budget, to customer satisfaction, and with no 'Poste Mortem' corrections or amendments to be scheduled, leaves me quite satisfied with my own professional record of achievement - thank you very much.