Is Astrophotography in the UK Pointless?

[Stuf1978]

I can count on one hand the number of imaging sessions I've had this year and non at all in the last 6 months. It's either constantly cloudy or other things getting in the way (which isn't anything to do with geography) but, it's got to the point where I'm considering selling up as I'm sitting on several thousands of pounds worth of equipment that barely gets used. It would be fine if you could guarantee several clear on the trot on a regular basis but this just never happens and I guess I'm becoming a little disillusioned with it all. 

Does anyone else ever get like this and how have you managed to snap out of it? Or has anyone sold up their gear and regretted it or conversely found selling up has liberated them from the need to not waste a clear night?

Guess I'm just venting my thoughts but would like to know what others think.

Thanks

Stu

[Elp]

I often wonder the same thing and how astronomy and discoveries ever became a thing here

[Elp]

It's frustrating but I find the second half of the year tends to have better opportunities despite thinking it'll rain or cloud more. Early year tends to be much more unsettled weather and summer nights are very short.

[Gasman]

Been there Stu and got the T shirt on that and switched to microscopy which obviously is not weather dependent BUT funnily enough I'm presently reviving my trusty old NEQ6 mount and Esprit refractor which has been sitting patiently in my dome for over 4 yes. I very nearly sold all my gear but glad I hung onto it now. A nice surprise was to find the mount spring back to life when I powered it up. I'm sussing out Nina at the moment so haven't done any observing yet but the astro interest is starting to return, maybe the weather frustration will return who knows 👍.

Steve

[Stuf1978]

1 minute ago, Elp said:

It's frustrating but I find the second half of the year tends to have better opportunities despite thinking it'll rain or cloud more. Early year tends to be much more unsettled weather and summer nights are very short.

Yeah I've found that over the last couple of years too. Oct to Feb seem to be ok(ish) but the rest of the year is a write off

[Stuf1978]

1 minute ago, Gasman said:

Been there Stu and got the T shirt on that and switched to microscopy which obviously is not weather dependent BUT funnily enough I'm presently reviving my trusty old NEQ6 mount and Esprit refractor which has been sitting patiently in my dome for over 4 yes. I very nearly sold all my gear but glad I hung onto it now. A nice surprise was to find the mount spring back to life when I powered it up. I'm sussing out Nina at the moment so haven't done any observing yet but the astro interest is starting to return, maybe the weather frustration will return who knows 👍.

Steve

Thanks Steve, good to hear the interest is starting to return. Maybe I should look at alternatives, remote imaging could be one solution to plug those cloudy gaps as I still do enjoy the processing side of it 😄

[Elp]

There's usually one week in June/July which is outdoors shorts sessions, but that's about it. I try to take advantage of every night no matter how short, but it's a lot more convenient when DST goes away (why do we still use it???) and you can setup early evening and get a good few hours and still get decent sleep.

[Elp]

Also it depends how long it takes to setup. My smaller ones around 15-20 mins physical from scratch, then around 10-20 again, PA, focus, plan and run. The camera one I can setup indoors and carry it all out as one saving time. I've done it so everything can be packed away into backpacks so take up little space indoors (less risk of you just staring at it wondering about its existence).

[Stuf1978]

3 minutes ago, Elp said:

Also it depends how long it takes to setup. My smaller ones around 15-20 mins physical from scratch, then around 10-20 again, PA, focus, plan and run. The camera one I can setup indoors and carry it all out as one saving time. I've done it so everything can be packed away into backpacks so take up little space indoors (less risk of you just staring at it wondering about its existence).

Yeah doesn't take too long. Maybe 45 minutes as everything needs to be set up from scratch everytime. Set up time doesn't really concern me when I only get 4 imaging sessions in a year 😂

[Elp]

Maybe look at F2 if you haven't. When I first did it, I took images of three targets in one night but soon realised you still need to spend hours and hours on a single target to get the good deep quality. Its good for browsing the sky though, ie using it like EAA.

[fwm891]

This year has been bad, worse than most. An observatory of some sort helps, even just a pier with the mount set-up so you don't need major PA's each session. Set-up and break-down are often the off putting stages because they're basically non productive so reducing them or removing them is a real bonus.

I have a RoR obsy and my set-up is usually plugging in a power lead to a wall socket and connecting my laptop to the mount/camera (oh and rolling back the roof!).

[Stuf1978]

19 minutes ago, Elp said:

Maybe look at F2 if you haven't. When I first did it, I took images of three targets in one night but soon realised you still need to spend hours and hours on a single target to get the good deep quality. Its good for browsing the sky though, ie using it like EAA.

I don't want to throw more money at the problem if I'm honest. 

5 minutes ago, fwm891 said:

This year has been bad, worse than most. An observatory of some sort helps, even just a pier with the mount set-up so you don't need major PA's each session. Set-up and break-down are often the off putting stages because they're basically non productive so reducing them or removing them is a real bonus.

I have a RoR obsy and my set-up is usually plugging in a power lead to a wall socket and connecting my laptop to the mount/camera (oh and rolling back the roof!).

This year has been woeful. Unfortunately I don't have the space for an observatory so setting up and dismantling is a necessity.

[saac]

I think you have to get into this with open eyes and just be sensible with expenditure. I always think about the cost per photograph whenever I'm thinking about an upgrade and this helps moderate over expenditure.  I also look at it as a lifetime interest rather than a hobby so not looking for a quick return. I don't mind not getting out on a clear night if I have other priorities, especially on a school night lol.  Play the long game, it may help. 

Jim 

Edited September 23, 2023 by saac

[Mark2022]

For me, the reality of the frustration is the money aspect (which you 'nod' to saying you have £thousands of kit) however, I knew, when buying all the kit I have over the past year, that the weather in this country is generally crap (either cloudy or freezing or too light in the summer etc) and I bought recognising  that, once I have it all 'up and running' to my liking (mount permanently in a shed/obsy and, in time, remote from inside the house) it would be something I'd have only sporadic opportunities to enjoy. I also never thought in terms of having to produce images based on hours and  hours worth of integration time. That's just not my  interest and would bore me to tears. I'm not big on sitting  outside observing either but the idea was simply to be able to do EAA from indoors and take images if and when I wished up to an hour (or perhaps two but largely not) of integration when I felt like it.

I know I've spent far more than I had originally intended or that I should have but then, I did and it's all there for when the 'stars align'. For some people, £thousands means nothing but I have noticed that there are a great number who have spent that money on a whim thinking astro is/was something it's not, but they really don't have the passion for it - it was a whim, and now they're selling up because, as said, it wasn't ever a passion.

So the  question I would ask myself is this: "Am I still passionate about this?" (ignoring the weather issues). If the answer to that question is a resounding "Yes, if I didn't have my kit and the ability do this when the opportunity strikes, I'd be rather unhappy", then there's your answer. It could be (re the amount invested) that you need to reconsider what you have and how it meets your interests in the type of astro which you enjoy (planetary or deep sky etc) but if your answer is "Actually no,  I'm no longer as passionate about the hobby in general" then I guess it would be time to offload.

Would you ever see a week in the future however, which offered wonderfully clear skies and you have sold it all?

All I've done above is download my own thinking if I was in your mindset. Hope it helps.

[fwm891]

9 minutes ago, Stuf1978 said:

I don't want to throw more money at the problem if I'm honest. 

This year has been woeful. Unfortunately I don't have the space for an observatory so setting up and dismantling is a necessity.

I have been through that type of situation with kit in the past where moving either a loaded tripod or tripod plus kit in smaller units. One thing I did after many nights of setting up getting my PA etc was to mark (the patio) in my case where the tips of the tripod legs touched the ground and next morning drill 3 holes in the patio just big enought to take the tripod leg points. Mark one legs as always in X direction (mine was nearest the kitchen wall) if you can leave the mount fixed to the tripod so much the better. Any little routine like that where bits of kit can be left assembled as units so fewer operations are needed to get going will speed up both set-up and take down time.

[Stuf1978]

18 minutes ago, Mark2022 said:

For me, the reality of the frustration is the money aspect (which you 'nod' to saying you have £thousands of kit) however, I knew, when buying all the kit I have over the past year, that the weather in this country is generally crap (either cloudy or freezing or too light in the summer etc) and I bought recognising  that, once I have it all 'up and running' to my liking (mount permanently in a shed/obsy and, in time, remote from inside the house) it would be something I'd have only sporadic opportunities to enjoy. I also never thought in terms of having to produce images based on hours and  hours worth of integration time. That's just not my  interest and would bore me to tears. I'm not big on sitting  outside observing either but the idea was simply to be able to do EAA from indoors and take images if and when I wished up to an hour (or perhaps two but largely not) of integration when I felt like it.

I know I've spent far more than I had originally intended or that I should have but then, I did and it's all there for when the 'stars align'. For some people, £thousands means nothing but I have noticed that there are a great number who have spent that money on a whim thinking astro is/was something it's not, but they really don't have the passion for it - it was a whim, and now they're selling up because, as said, it wasn't ever a passion.

So the  question I would ask myself is this: "Am I still passionate about this?" (ignoring the weather issues). If the answer to that question is a resounding "Yes, if I didn't have my kit and the ability do this when the opportunity strikes, I'd be rather unhappy", then there's your answer. It could be (re the amount invested) that you need to reconsider what you have and how it meets your interests in the type of astro which you enjoy (planetary or deep sky etc) but if your answer is "Actually no,  I'm no longer as passionate about the hobby in general" then I guess it would be time to offload.

Would you ever see a week in the future however, which offered wonderfully clear skies and you have sold it all?

All I've done above is download my own thinking if I was in your mindset. Hope it helps.

Mark that really is a great post, thank you. I still am passionate about it and still find it incredible that we can image what we do in our own back gardens with relatively modest equipment and I knew full well the weather was crap when buying all the gear but seeing it sitting there not being used is disheartening. 

 

However, maybe I do need to be more relaxed about it and learn to play the long game. Family life has taken over in the last couple of years which has lead to guilt in missing out on the occasional clear night.... but do you know what, it doesn't really matter. If I miss out on shooting something one year it's not like it won't be coming back round the year after 😄

[Gasman]

I've often heard the term 'old friends' referring to the constellationsand that's how I tend to look at them, if I can't see them this year no big I can always see them next (health etc willing 😆). I popped out the other night and noticed Lyra high in the sky, gave her a quick nod and thought see you later 😄!.

Steve

[WolfieGlos]

You know, I’ve been joining in with the whole “UK weather is rubbish”, etc, but I knew that getting into the hobby. I do get annoyed when I’m part way through an image and it’s clouded over for 2 weeks or a full moon arises or whatever, but there’s nothing we can do about it. Just work with it.

I’ve actually just been back and counted up my imaging time this year. For subs that have been used in images (so discounting scrapped subs from cloud, trailing etc), and not including single shots of the Moon or some recent planetary work….I’ve clocked around 194 hours so far this year. Most have been posted here on SGL. 

I don’t have a dome or anything and I set up every night. To be honest, I’m surprised I’ve clocked that much!! 

[Stuf1978]

25 minutes ago, Gasman said:

I've often heard the term 'old friends' referring to the constellationsand that's how I tend to look at them, if I can't see them this year no big I can always see them next (health etc willing 😆). I popped out the other night and noticed Lyra high in the sky, gave her a quick nod and thought see you later 😄!.

Steve

Love it 👍

 

5 minutes ago, WolfieGlos said:

You know, I’ve been joining in with the whole “UK weather is rubbish”, etc, but I knew that getting into the hobby. I do get annoyed when I’m part way through an image and it’s clouded over for 2 weeks or a full moon arises or whatever, but there’s nothing we can do about it. Just work with it.

I’ve actually just been back and counted up my imaging time this year. For subs that have been used in images (so discounting scrapped subs from cloud, trailing etc), and not including single shots of the Moon or some recent planetary work….I’ve clocked around 194 hours so far this year. Most have been posted here on SGL. 

I don’t have a dome or anything and I set up every night. To be honest, I’m surprised I’ve clocked that much!! 

That's really good going. I'd consider a good 6-8 hours per night on a single target a success so managing 194 for the year is a fairly healthy number. Kudos 👍

[tooth_dr]

We had some clear skies last week, and I captured 50+ hours on IC1396, 46 of which are good and usable.  I have the opposite problem in that I capture data but dont get around to processing it!  I had a look on my hard drive and I have unprocessed data on the following, somewhere in the region of 300 hours, 10k+ subs I'm sure.  I lost my mojo last year, but finally it's come back.  But I never stopped collecting data, only processing it 

Markarians Chain
NGC7822
NGC2264
IC1396
B7
NGC1499
Leo Triplets
Orion Mosaic
Whale Galaxy
M13
M51
M64
M78
Rosette
M104
NGC6543
NGC7023
Polaris

Edited September 23, 2023 by tooth_dr

[Ratlet]

My current work pattern means the half the year (2 of every 4 weeks) are absolute no goes leaving me with the other half to even have a chance at imaging.

As @Elp says optimising your setup time helps greatly and making sure everything works as much as possible ahead of time is pretty important.

Another big help has been treating imaging as a part of astronomy in general.  Usually I'll get the Dob/Newt out for imaging to start cooling and then setup the imaging rig, which takes about 30 minutes in total.  I try to have an idea of what I want to image before I go out too.  Once I get it up and running I leave it and image.  If I don't get everything going within 45 minutes then I dump it in the shed and go visual.  At the end of the night I don't pack everything away, I just put it in the shed and get it in the morning or the next day.  I found the nights when I've gone out and battered my head against a software issue are incredibly frustrating and suck the joy out of life.  By just walking away from the problem and doing visual I've found my stress levels about imaging have decreased massively and I enjoy it more.

Of course, I've got very low imaging standards so I'm perhaps not the best judge.

[Mr Spock]

I've never known a year with so much cloud 

[bosun21]

Summer was officially canceled this year and was substituted with clouds and rain.

[Ouroboros]

There should be something equivalent to a sort “Drake equation” for astro imagers shouldn’t there?

Number of imaging nights per year = 365 x Nc x No x Nm x Nd 

Possible coefficients might include: 

Nc = The fraction of clear nights per year 

No = The fraction of nights on which no conflicting factors prevent imaging

Nm = The fraction of nights on which there is no moon (if that’s relevant) 

Nd = The fraction of nights it is sufficiently dark for imaging  etc 

Feel free to suggest other coefficients relevant to you.  

Since I only seem to get a handful of imaging nights per year I can only speculate that some of my coefficients are quite small fractions - especially No. 

Having a permanent set up must make all the difference though.  

 

[bosun21]

16 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Having a permanent set up must make all the difference though

Especially if it's on a mountaintop in Chile.