ZWO Seestar 50

[LDW1]

10 minutes ago, Marky1973 said:

Yeah, it's small and light enough to whip out anywhere....and apparently very quick to set up, so should be a nice gateway drug into the hobby ..or back into it. Or just a fun totally for the experts who just want a quick fix. There are a few more examples of images on FB, all with a low number of 10s subs, but all perfectly acceptable as examples of what is up there.

' or back into it ', what, EAA which this is or AP which this not ?

[Elp]

5 minutes ago, LDW1 said:

What noise ?  For some reason it is all being lost in translation don't we think !

It's not a complaint, I think it looks fine

[LDW1]

1 minute ago, Elp said:

It's not a complaint, I think it looks fine

I didn't say it was a complaint, I said ' what noise ', where is it in that great looking, overall picture ?

[Marky1973]

14 minutes ago, Elp said:

It's not a complaint, I think it looks fine

 

11 minutes ago, LDW1 said:

I didn't say it was a complaint, I said ' what noise ', where is it in that great looking, overall picture ?

Okay guys, play nice now! I didn't mean to cause arguments.

This is an EAA scope that just happens to allow people to dabble in basic astrophotography. The images will be basic and suffer from the Alt-Az mount dictating short subs, and noise from an uncooled 2mp sensor.

It's not meant to replace a 10k fully guided set-up, it's just mean to be fun....which I think it looks like it will be, whether it leads you into more visual astronomy or astrophotography.

[Elp]

I think it's capable of a lot more, I believe people will be using it for hours on the same target and getting very good results out of it. I use uncooled cameras probably more than cooled, nothing wrong with them at all.

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Elp

[LDW1]

4 hours ago, Marky1973 said:

 

Okay guys, play nice now! I didn't mean to cause arguments.

This is an EAA scope that just happens to allow people to dabble in basic astrophotography. The images will be basic and suffer from the Alt-Az mount dictating short subs, and noise from an uncooled 2mp sensor.

It's not meant to replace a 10k fully guided set-up, it's just mean to be fun....which I think it looks like it will be, whether it leads you into more visual astronomy or astrophotography.

We always play nice no matter how it comes out, lol.   PS:  Its the skies that don't play nice anymore.

Edited July 4, 2023 by LDW1

[Louis D]

On 04/07/2023 at 08:57, LDW1 said:

What noise ?  Looks pretty d**n good for those that this camera was designed for ! Its not even in the highly costly AP category as has been mentioned many, many times !  I don't understand how anyone could / would compare the two ?  For some reason it is all being lost in translation don't we think !

This astro-cam's noise level reminds me of the noise levels in circa-2005 digital cameras.  Post processing with noise reduction software was commonplace.

Today's digital cameras are doing something under the covers to minimize such noise to an almost imperceivably low level without noticeably compromising detail.  I assume it's some sort of digital signal processing within the post-capture electronics/software.

[Louis D]

On 04/07/2023 at 06:59, Marky1973 said:

Think this looks exciting. I've been 'out of the game' for a few years and this looks like a good cheap way to get back into things. I don't have much time for astronomy at the moment so this looks like a good option to get the bug back while I prepare the wallet for a drubbing!

I know it's not going to be comparable to 20 minute guided subs, but there are some examples over on Facebook of what you can get with a few minutes of 10 second exposures and I think it looks promising for amateurs like me

https://www.facebook.com/groups/seestar/permalink/231179049694385/

There is data included on that link and I had a play with the M51 data...20 minutes of 10s exposures in Siril....and the results are promising....not blow your socks off, but definitely promising....I have low expectations but have a pre-order in ... (I should also point out I am not the best at processing! 😁)

I hope you don't mind, but I ran the image through 20+ year old noise reduction software I was talking about to smooth out the chroma noise a bit.  I then did some selective levels adjustments in a 20+ year old version of PS Elements to suppress the false background cirrus.  I think the problem is that this astro-cam is using a tiny imaging chip prone to noise just like the P&S digital cameras from 20 years ago.

[Marky1973]

2 hours ago, Louis D said:

I hope you don't mind, but I ran the image through 20+ year old noise reduction software I was talking about to smooth out the chroma noise a bit.  I then did some selective levels adjustments in a 20+ year old version of PS Elements to suppress the false background cirrus.  I think the problem is that this astro-cam is using a tiny imaging chip prone to noise just like the P&S digital cameras from 20 years ago.

Don't mind at all, I just did 5 minutes using a very brief tutorial for siril which I've never used before....nd I definitely pushed it too far Nd clipped the data.

Never going to expect miracles, but I till don't think it's bad for the data.

What noise reduction software are you talking about?

[Louis D]

16 hours ago, Marky1973 said:

What noise reduction software are you talking about?

NoiseWare Community Edition

It was never state of the art, but this version was cheap (free).  I used the Landscape preset since it blurred fine details the least.  This got rid of most of the chroma noise everywhere, but the sky background was now milky instead of multicolored.

After that, I used Photoshop Elements 2.0 (packaged with a scanner way back when and still available for under $20 on ebay with activation serial number) to first select the entire image (ctrl-A).  Next, I repeatedly  used the magic selection tool with tolerance factors of 10 to 50 to select the brighter areas for exclusion.  I used the non-contiguous option to get everything brighter excluded.  Lastly, I used levels to push down the now selected dark background to pure black.  It might not look perfectly realistic, but it got rid of the the distracting chroma/milky flocculence in the background.

I'll be watching to see where this astro-cam market goes.  The first digital microscopes for kids were fairly expensive years ago, but are pretty cheap today.

[LDW1]

53 minutes ago, Louis D said:

NoiseWare Community Edition

It was never state of the art, but this version was cheap (free).  I used the Landscape preset since it blurred fine details the least.  This got rid of most of the chroma noise everywhere, but the sky background was now milky instead of multicolored.

After that, I used Photoshop Elements 2.0 (packaged with a scanner way back when and still available for under $20 on ebay with activation serial number) to first select the entire image (ctrl-A).  Next, I repeatedly  used the magic selection tool with tolerance factors of 10 to 50 to select the brighter areas for exclusion.  I used the non-contiguous option to get everything brighter excluded.  Lastly, I used levels to push down the now selected dark background to pure black.  It might not look perfectly realistic, but it got rid of the the distracting chroma/milky flocculence in the background.

I'll be watching to see where this astro-cam market goes.  The first digital microscopes for kids were fairly expensive years ago, but are pretty cheap today.

Based on your last paragraph are you implying that prices for this gear will go down further based on the history that you seem to mention ?  We are still talking the SeeStar 50 and / or similar ?  Right now a low $500 or less !

Edited July 7, 2023 by LDW1

[Louis D]

22 minutes ago, LDW1 said:

Based on your last paragraph are you implying that prices for this gear will go down further based on the history that you seem to mention ?  We are still talking the SeeStar 50 and / or similar ?  Right now a low $500 or less !

If the market takes off beyond astro enthusiasts, such as with home schoolers, then they probably will.  If they don't find a broader market, then they will die off or become expensive niche items.  Only time will tell.

[Louis D]

On 04/07/2023 at 08:57, LDW1 said:

What noise ?  Looks pretty d**n good for those that this camera was designed for ! Its not even in the highly costly AP category as has been mentioned many, many times !  I don't understand how anyone could / would compare the two ?  For some reason it is all being lost in translation don't we think !

Once I looked at the image on my cheap 27" 4K TN screen for work, I understood what you meant.  Its low dynamic range and low color gamut completely masks the dark chroma noise.  However, I first looked at it on my NEC 2690WUXI2 H-IPS screen I use for photo editing.  Its wide color gamut, high dynamic range (1000:1) showed it plain as day.  I guess it makes a big difference what sort of monitor you're using when viewing images even online.

[LDW1]

36 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Once I looked at the image on my cheap 27" 4K TN screen for work, I understood what you meant.  Its low dynamic range and low color gamut completely masks the dark chroma noise.  However, I first looked at it on my NEC 2690WUXI2 H-IPS screen I use for photo editing.  Its wide color gamut, high dynamic range (1000:1) showed it plain as day.  I guess it makes a big difference what sort of monitor you're using when viewing images even online.

Over technical people have always said over technical things !  The big question has always been why, when talking to the average observer that just wants to enjoy.  Maybe it should be in a seperate thread, maybe !

[LDW1]

45 minutes ago, Louis D said:

If the market takes off beyond astro enthusiasts, such as with home schoolers, then they probably will.  If they don't find a broader market, then they will die off or become expensive niche items.  Only time will tell.

And thats just your very early opinion for sure !

[Louis D]

2 hours ago, LDW1 said:

The big question has always been why, when talking to the average observer that just wants to enjoy.

I guess the question then is, is this astro-cam more for observing or imaging?  If for observing, then noise and image quality don't really matter much at all just so long as the image provided satisfies the observer.  After all, look at how noisy night vision devices are.  The image positively sparkles.  If for imaging, then noise levels are a legitimate point of discussion along with many other image attributes.

[LDW1]

2 hours ago, Louis D said:

I guess the question then is, is this astro-cam more for observing or imaging?  If for observing, then noise and image quality don't really matter much at all just so long as the image provided satisfies the observer.  After all, look at how noisy night vision devices are.  The image positively sparkles.  If for imaging, then noise levels are a legitimate point of discussion along with many other image attributes.

Why should it be, first it is for EAA not AP as has always been stated and second as has been dicussed again and again this device is geared towards rank beginers in this field / end of astronomy, if the experienced AP'ers want to give it a try thats okay but they shouldn't try to dazzle anyone with the ' all the noise ' footwork !  The beginers I am sure don't give a da*m one bit about it because they never have had to contend with it ! I am sure many newcomers just shake their head when they look at that posted photo as to what the concern is, lol.   PS:  Maybe that issue as it relates should be in an undivided seperate thread ?

[Marky1973]

On 07/07/2023 at 14:46, Louis D said:

Once I looked at the image on my cheap 27" 4K TN screen for work, I understood what you meant.  Its low dynamic range and low color gamut completely masks the dark chroma noise.  However, I first looked at it on my NEC 2690WUXI2 H-IPS screen I use for photo editing.  Its wide color gamut, high dynamic range (1000:1) showed it plain as day.  I guess it makes a big difference what sort of monitor you're using when viewing images even online.

Interesting as today was the first time I got to look at the posted image on my home monitor - looks very different from my original picture that is saved on the laptop and I was viewing on my mobile - the noise shows up much more in the posted image.  Always going to differ depending on what you process on and then what you view on - as the Seestar feels like it is meant for mobiles/tablets and social media sharing, this probably shouldn't be too much of an issue - for me its definitely a quick fix of "wow look what's up there" rather than professional level imaging, which you aren't going to get with the Seestar.

[Elp]

I think you'll be surprised. The 224mc isn't designed for DSO imaging but some people have got fantastic results from it. I tend to use my uncooled cameras more despite them not being classed as DSO cameras. This product is more for quick hassle free setup and viewing, the question will remain how many purchasers will continue to use them as I've seen quite a number of Dwarf2s for resale the past couple of weeks.

Edited July 8, 2023 by Elp

[LDW1]

33 minutes ago, Marky1973 said:

Interesting as today was the first time I got to look at the posted image on my home monitor - looks very different from my original picture that is saved on the laptop and I was viewing on my mobile - the noise shows up much more in the posted image.  Always going to differ depending on what you process on and then what you view on - as the Seestar feels like it is meant for mobiles/tablets and social media sharing, this probably shouldn't be too much of an issue - for me its definitely a quick fix of "wow look what's up there" rather than professional level imaging, which you aren't going to get with the Seestar.

And everyone knows you are not going to so why bring it up on this thread ! Start another one for those that might care, talk about highjacking, lol !

[LDW1]

15 minutes ago, Elp said:

I think you'll be surprised. The 224mc isn't designed for DSO imaging but some people have got fantastic results from it. I tend to use my uncooled cameras more despite them not being classed as DSO cameras. This product is more for quick hassle free setup and viewing, the question will remain how many purchasers will continue to use them as I've seen quite a number of Dwarf2s for resale the past couple of weeks.

I have only seen one or two for resale,  how many are you talking, part of the reason may be that the sellers just plain don't know how to get started to use them not the photo quality !

[happy-kat]

I thought the camera was the 462 colour on the seestar which is quite sensitive and not too noisy for the exposure lengths used I don't think

[Marky1973]

17 minutes ago, LDW1 said:

And everyone knows you are not going to so why bring it up on this thread ! Start another one for those that might care, talk about highjacking, lol !

Cool your boots....I'm not hijacking anything - the thread was started by someone saying the were interested in the Seestar - I'm just giving my opinion about the data I have played with and said nothing but positive things while being honest about my expectations. 

[LDW1]

33 minutes ago, Marky1973 said:

Cool your boots....I'm not hijacking anything - the thread was started by someone saying the were interested in the Seestar - I'm just giving my opinion about the data I have played with and said nothing but positive things while being honest about my expectations. 

I never said you were highjacking, I am in fact agreeing with some of what you say. My reference to highjacking implies that what many are pushing are highjacking the intent of this piece of gear ie a great beginers introduction into dso photo work, eaa if you will not the technical, higher end cr*p that some like to impress with.  For many that are looking for just this sort of enjoyment without spending a lot of $'s it must be bewildering, discouraging, frustrating to think they may be getting into something more than what they thought. Its not hard to figure out. Please cool those boots !   PS:  After a while it gets so tiring to see great threads go flying off into deep space beyond the original intent of whatever the subject may be, never to return back to its origin. I don't think the SeeStar is or was intended as an AP piece of equipment with all that goes with it, lets give these astronomers that want to get their feet wet in this end of the sky a break.  PPS:  A seperate thread on the subjects of editing, perceived noise real or imagined, etc would be appropriate for many to preclude confusion and false issues / concerns.

[Marky1973]

9 hours ago, LDW1 said:

I never said you were highjacking, I am in fact agreeing with some of what you say. My reference to highjacking implies that what many are pushing are highjacking the intent of this piece of gear ie a great beginers introduction into dso photo work, eaa if you will not the technical, higher end cr*p that some like to impress with.  For many that are looking for just this sort of enjoyment without spending a lot of $'s it must be bewildering, discouraging, frustrating to think they may be getting into something more than what they thought. Its not hard to figure out. Please cool those boots !   PS:  After a while it gets so tiring to see great threads go flying off into deep space beyond the original intent of whatever the subject may be, never to return back to its origin. I don't think the SeeStar is or was intended as an AP piece of equipment with all that goes with it, lets give these astronomers that want to get their feet wet in this end of the sky a break.  PPS:  A seperate thread on the subjects of editing, perceived noise real or imagined, etc would be appropriate for many to preclude confusion and false issues / concerns.

Well, your comment was in response to a direct quote from my post, so it reads as if it is aimed directly at me - but if I have misinterpreted what you said, I apologise. All I was doing was adding my excitement about the Seestar to a thread started by someone excited about the Seestar.