TV Delos 12mm vs 13mm Nagler T6

[Pixies]

I bought a job-lot of eyepieces which excitingly included a 12mm Delos! Around 70°-80° FOV is my sweet-spot, so I was really looking forward to using it. I've used it for several sessions now, and wanted to love it - but I don't!

I can't say what it is - it's comfortable enough and I have no real difficulty getting my eye position correct. Perhaps it's just the faff of the adjustable body, but it doesn't really 'disappear' in use.

So - now having tried a Delos and an Ethos (too wide for me) - should I just bite the bullet and get a 13mm Nagler? Anyone here have experience with the 12mm Delos and 13mm Nagler (T6)? How do they compare in use?

[Neil_104]

I've never used either - so please disregard anything I say from here on!

For me I need long eye relief, not due to wearing glasses but due to pesky long eyelashes. The 13mm Nagler was an eyepiece I had on my list, until I realised its short eye relief (I need at least 15mm I reckon, more like 20mm). So just wanted to mention this in case you have the same eye relief requirements.

I've also read that due to the small-ish eye lens of the 13mm Nagler it doesn't quite give such an immersive view as something like a Morpheus would (which I do own, and I really enjoy using due to its long eye relief and that "wrap around" effect once you get close enough to the lens). I found this lack of immersion with an 11mm ES 82 degree. It was sharp as anything, but just too uncomfortable for me to get anywhere near close enough to enjoy an immersive view.

HTH in some small way....

[Paz]

I have never used a 13mm T6 but I am sure that is an excellent eyepiece  , that's my helpful input and of course it has nothing to do with the fact that if you want to offload the 12mm Delos I would be happy to help with that, I've been looking for one for ages to make up a binoviewing pair 

I started out with ES82 eyepieces and they are great but eye relief issues plus realising I was not that bothered about having very wide AFOVs led me to Delos which I have been very happy with.

[Pixies]

4 minutes ago, Neil_104 said:

I've never used either - so please disregard anything I say from here on!

For me I need long eye relief, not due to wearing glasses but due to pesky long eyelashes. The 13mm Nagler was an eyepiece I had on my list, until I realised its short eye relief (I need at least 15mm I reckon, more like 20mm). So just wanted to mention this in case you have the same eye relief requirements.

I've also read that due to the small-ish eye lens of the 13mm Nagler it doesn't quite give such an immersive view as something like a Morpheus would (which I do own, and I really enjoy using due to its long eye relief and that "wrap around" effect once you get close enough to the lens). I found this lack of immersion with an 11mm ES 82 degree. It was sharp as anything, but just too uncomfortable for me to get anywhere near close enough to enjoy an immersive view.

HTH in some small way....

You might like the Delos, then! It has a very large eye lens and is built for long eye-relief. When closed down, the eye-lens is almost flush with the top (for spec-wearers), but you loosen the base and the top of the eyepiece can be pulled up . 

I'm short-sighted, but prefer to observe without specs.

[Pixies]

5 minutes ago, Paz said:

I have never used a 13mm T6 but I am sure that is an excellent eyepiece  , that's my helpful input and of course it has nothing to do with the fact that if you want to offload the 12mm Delos I would be happy to help with that, I've been looking for one for ages to make up a binoviewing pair 

I started out with ES82 eyepieces and they are great but eye relief issues plus realising I was not that bothered about having very wide AFOVs led me to Delos which I have been very happy with.

Noted!

[Neil_104]

Yep, keen to try a Delos at some stage and looking into the 17.3mm, but I'd also like the Morph 17.5mm knowing how much I like my 12.5mm.

Besides, I think Paz's needs are greater - binoviewing with a Delos must be a good experience!

[Louis D]

2 hours ago, Pixies said:

So - now having tried a Delos and an Ethos (too wide for me) - should I just bite the bullet and get a 13mm Nagler? Anyone here have experience with the 12mm Delos and 13mm Nagler (T6)? How do they compare in use?

Here are some other wide field options at 12mm/12.5mm:

• The discontinued 12mm Nagler T4 which I have and don't really care for.  It does have an 83° AFOV.
• The 12.5mm Morpheus as others have said.  It supposedly has a 78°AFOV, so not that far behind the 13mm NT6.  The longish eye relief might put you off, though.
• The 12.5mm Noblex which supposedly restarted production and is supposed to be superb across its 84° AFOV.
• The 12.5mm APM Hi-FW which I have and like quite a lot. Given the longish eye relief, you might not like it, though.  It has an 80° AFOV.
• The 12mm ES-92 which I also have.  It's huge and 2"-only, but a joy to use with its 92° AFOV.

The TFOV is roughly the same between those last two thanks to opposite types of edge distortion.

[Mr Spock]

I had a 7mm T6 for a while. It was easy to use but you couldn’t really see all the fov. I sold it when I bought the 8mm LVW - a much more comfortable eyepiece but only 65*. 

[RT65CB-SWL]

I maybe one of a few that own a TeleVue 13mm Nagler Type 1 & Type 6. I enjoy the views in both.

If I want a bit more power and sacrificing the 'wide' FOV, I use my TeleVue 6 and 8mm Radian’s.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Philip R

[Alan White]

Funny old world and shows how eyepieces are so individual.
For me the 70 degrees does just work well, the 82 and above are too much,
My eye needs a field stop to be just visible.

That 12mm Delos to me would be just perfect.

The Naglers are super and so much smaller in stature (makes no sense) so why not try one.
An alternate would be to try a Morpheus 12, wider than the Delos.

If only you were much closer you could try my Morpheus 12 and see how it worked for you.

The difference in Delos and Nagler is probably size, weight and possibly balance with other eyepieces,
Intry to match my line for balance as I like to swap about ep as I observe.

Not my image and not exactly what I am talking about, but this image shows my train of thought.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Alan White

[Don Pensack]

11 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

I had a 7mm T6 for a while. It was easy to use but you couldn’t really see all the fov. I sold it when I bought the 8mm LVW - a much more comfortable eyepiece but only 65*. 

People write that all the time, but unless there is something terribly wrong with your vision, the edge of an 82° field should we WELL within your peripheral vision which, in most people, extends to 145° laterally and 125° vertically.

You can see this as well simply by moving a bright star over to right next to the field stop and then looking at the center of the field.  The bright star is still there in your peripheral vision.

It's the same with the 100° of an Ethos as well.

 

I think what you mean, and what most people mean when they say they can't see the entire FOV is that they cannot look directly at the edge of the field with the center of vision by merely averting your eye to do so.

You have to hold the pupil steady and slightly roll the head while looking through the eyepiece at an angle.  And some people simply cannot adapt to that method of observing (arthritis in the neck?).

The other possibility is that, for some reason, you simply didn't get close enough to the eyepiece to see the entire field.

 

I'm not certain what my ideal apparent field is.  I've used eyepieces of 30-120° over the years.  78° seems *just* wide enough I don't feel like I have blinders on or are looking at space through a tube.

110° seems a bit too wide simply because when looking at the upper end of the apparent field my peripheral vision sees too much sky.

I've used a few eyepieces of 84-85°, and that seems to be a comfortable apparent field.  Maybe 90° would be optimum?

 

Personally, I find the 13mm Nagler is an excellent eyepiece in every way.  It's really only 79°, but it is superbly sharp and has excellent contrast.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Don Pensack

[Louis D]

Another possibility is that SAEP is so strong that once you get close enough to see the entire FOV, you start fighting kidney bean blackouts.  I get this quite strongly with the 12mm and 17mm NT4s along with the 20mm Meade 5000 UWA and 26mm Meade MWA.  It almost feels like the eyepiece is fighting back and doesn't want to cooperate with your eye.

I have never looked through a 13mm NT6 given the short eye relief, so I have no idea if it has any SAEP like its predecessor the 13mm NT1 or kinfolk 12mm NT4, but that might account for difficulty seeing the entire field at once.

[Pixies]

Thanks everyone. Lots to think about.

I think I'll keep my eyes open for a secondhand 13mm Nagler T6 and add it to the collection and spend a little more time comparing them. I have the 13mm Vixen LVW too. I need to get some usage out of all of them from a decent dark site, too. Around 12mm gives me a 2mm exit pupil in the dob and often provides the best views for me with faint fuzzies (without filters).

[niallk]

Haven't used a Delos so limited capacity for giving advice!  I do have some Ethos EPs, and the 7 & 13mm T6 Naglers.

The N13T6 is a gem of an EP - remarkable performance in such a compact form factor.  My first TV purchase, and probably the last one I'd part with.

I'd hope you too won't regret picking one up!! 😉

[Saganite]

FWIW, I agree with you on the 12mm Delos, I had one and sold it a month or so later, it simply did not work for me, but I cannot explain why.  I replaced it with a pair of 13mm Naglers and I can give them nothing but praise, just superb.  

[Mr Spock]

If I had a choice between the 7mm T6 I had, and the 7mm Nirvana I have now - I'd choose the latter. It has the comfort factor and less pronounced black-outs/kidney beaning compared to the T6. Not to mention being a quarter of the price... 

[Pixies]

41 minutes ago, Mr Spock said:

If I had a choice between the 7mm T6 I had, and the 7mm Nirvana I have now - I'd choose the latter. It has the comfort factor and less pronounced black-outs/kidney beaning compared to the T6. Not to mention being a quarter of the price... 

Ironically I never got on with the 16mm Nirvana I had - it never seemed comfortable.

However - the 2" 28mm Nirvana hand-grenade I have is probably my favourite eyepiece in my case(s) just now!

[Alan White]

59 minutes ago, Pixies said:

Ironically I never got on with the 16mm Nirvana I had - it never seemed comfortable.

However - the 2" 28mm Nirvana hand-grenade I have is probably my favourite eyepiece in my case(s) just now!

Just goes to show how personal kit choice truly is.....

[RT65CB-SWL]

One thing I find that is important with ‘wide-field’ eyepieces and that is to place the centre of your eye with the centre of the eyepiece. That was the reason that TeleVue supplied the ‘Pupil Guide’ [image below with instructions] with the Radian series and Nagler Type 4’s.

TV Radian Eyepiece Instructions.pdf

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I have a 14mm Delos, and I remember it took a bit of getting used to. In particular, I tried a couple of different positions for eye-cup, and once I found the optimal, I locked the top of the upper barre in that position and haven't changed it since. I did the same for the 8mm Delos I bought later. I still find it a smidgen less comfortable than the Pentax XWs, but still very nice to use. The ES 12 mm 92 deg monster I have is an absolute gem, but I also needed to find the right eye position in that one (and the 17 mm as well).

[John]

I've owned the Nagler T6 13mm (twice) the 17.3 and 14mm Delos (still have the 14mm) and the 13mm Ethos plus quite a few other 12/13mm eyepieces as well along the way.

It is a very useful eyepiece focal length in practically all scope specifications.

The only eyepiece of this focal length that I really had any issues with was the Explore Scientific 92 degrees 12mm which had way too much eye relief for me. Of course it is precisely this feature that makes it very popular with those who wear glasses when observing. 

All the eyepieces discussed in this thread are of very good or excellent optical quality so what we are discussing here are primarily ergonomic considerations and what suits individual observers, as @Alan White notes in his post above. Given that we are all different it is perhaps no surprise that there will not be all that much consensus.

Personally I slightly prefer using the Pentax XW's over the Deloi that I've owned but only by a small margin and I can get along quite happily with a Delos if that is what suits the task in hand best.

I did really love the T6 Naglers (I had a full set at one point) but gradually switched to the Ethos eyepieces once I had discovered how much I enjoyed those. A couple of years ago I bought another 13mm T6 Nagler for old time's sake but found that I had now got used to what the 13mm Ethos had to offer and the little 13mm Nagler seemed a little lack-lustre buy comparison so off it went to another home.

Sometimes we need to try a few eyepiece designs out to find out what suits our personal preferences. Thank goodness that the used equipment market enables that to happen. 

 

 

 

 

[nicholasastro]

I have owned 13mm Nagler Type 6 and 13mm Ethos eyepieces. More recently, 13mm APM XWA and 12.5mm Morpheus, the latter being my preferred and most used eyepiece in that focal length - very good contrast and sharpness, and a sufficiently wide field of view for my needs.

[Piero]

I have a N13T6 (my second, lesson learnt!) and also had a 12mm Delos in the past. Optically the Delos is a touch clearer and for this reason possibly more suitable for planetary observation. It's a medium size eyepiece though and for that size I found that I want more FOV from an eyepiece. The Nagler T6 is a very powerful little tool which fits in my eyepiece pouch nicely.

My Delos 12mm was sold as replaced by the docter 12.5mm. If I didn't have the docter, rather than getting a Delos 12 I would get for a 13mm apm xwa.

Note: I don't observe with spectacles and I tend to observe DSOs mostly.

[nicholasastro]

7 hours ago, Piero said:

My Delos 12mm was sold as replaced by the docter 12.5mm. If I didn't have the docter, rather than getting a Delos 12 I would get for a 13mm apm xwa.

I have a 13mm APM XWA, and I agree, it's a nice eyepiece. However, I'd be interested in trying a 12.5mm Doctor! I'm in the Cambridgeshire area too, so if you'd consider trading it together with cash upgrade, I guess that's something that we could easily arrange? 🙂

[Piero]

3 hours ago, nicholasastro said:

I have a 13mm APM XWA, and I agree, it's a nice eyepiece. However, I'd be interested in trying a 12.5mm Doctor! I'm in the Cambridgeshire area too, so if you'd consider trading it together with cash upgrade, I guess that's something that we could easily arrange? 🙂

Sorry mate, but the only times my docter is allowed to leave the eyepiece case is to comfortably sit on my feathertouches..