Sending to china for repair

[Anubis1311]

My ASI183mm pro has a fault that cannot be fixed and is out of warranty. ZWO have requested I send it to them in China. In their guidance they have suggested I list the item as ‘personal item’ and put the value at £299. Given its a £1k camera is that wise? 
 

Would stating the actual value cause me problems at customs? They said not to list it as a repair as it might cause problems. It all seems a bit weird. Anyone posted a camera to ZWO before? 

[Stuart1971]

43 minutes ago, Anubis1311 said:

My ASI183mm pro has a fault that cannot be fixed and is out of warranty. ZWO have requested I send it to them in China. In their guidance they have suggested I list the item as ‘personal item’ and put the value at £299. Given its a £1k camera is that wise? 
 

Would stating the actual value cause me problems at customs? They said not to list it as a repair as it might cause problems. It all seems a bit weird. Anyone posted a camera to ZWO before? 

If it gets lost and you have to claim, you will only get the cost you declared the item is worth….so think about it….🤔 Assuming you will insure…if you choose to insure for the full value, it will cost around £150 to send….

Edited April 22, 2022 by Stuart1971

[Anubis1311]

That’s why I’m not sure why ZWO have suggested I state that it’s £299. Wondered if it’s a customs thing? £150?? Will it be that much?

[Stuart1971]

9 hours ago, Anubis1311 said:

That’s why I’m not sure why ZWO have suggested I state that it’s £299. Wondered if it’s a customs thing? £150?? Will it be that much?

Do an online quote for the postage with the full camera cost….actually with Royal Mail special delivery and extra insurance it will me much cheaper than that, but with a courier no, will be more expensive…

[malc-c]

A limited search didn't throw up a UK distributor, so it may be a case each of the retailers such as FLO or RVO purchase direct.  It may be worth dropping FLO a PM / email to see if there is a UK disty, and possibly contact them to see if the camera can be returned through the distribution chain rather then privately.  The £299 value would be risky on a product that will set you back over a grand to replace, but insuring it for the price of a new replacement could see the cost increase dramatically.  DO NOT use royal mail.  They have no control after the package leaves the UK.  It's passed on to the postal service in the destination country, and if it gets lost you have no redress and have to contact the overseas postal service to try and recover or discover where the parcel is (speaking from personal experience).  It will cost more, but using something like DHL or UPS gives you more "rights" should the parcel go astray as you will be dealing with a UK agent.

[Stuart1971]

1 hour ago, malc-c said:

A limited search didn't throw up a UK distributor, so it may be a case each of the retailers such as FLO or RVO purchase direct.  It may be worth dropping FLO a PM / email to see if there is a UK disty, and possibly contact them to see if the camera can be returned through the distribution chain rather then privately.  The £299 value would be risky on a product that will set you back over a grand to replace, but insuring it for the price of a new replacement could see the cost increase dramatically.  DO NOT use royal mail.  They have no control after the package leaves the UK.  It's passed on to the postal service in the destination country, and if it gets lost you have no redress and have to contact the overseas postal service to try and recover or discover where the parcel is (speaking from personal experience).  It will cost more, but using something like DHL or UPS gives you more "rights" should the parcel go astray as you will be dealing with a UK agent.

Hmmm, have to disagree, as long as you send Royal Mail tracked service if it goes missing you can claim from Royal Mail, this happened to me once, and I had a successful claim, even though it was lost overseas with a partner service….you need to pay for a Royal Mail tracked service though…👍🏼

[Adam J]

Who did you originally purchase the camera from? 

[AstroKeith]

I think you may be getting tied up with tariffs and duties. There are limits, below which these don't apply. Go above and they get pretty steep.

The wording ZWO is suggesting indicates to me they are trying to avoid such costs. Some would apply both ways too.

As it is out of warranty you may or will be liable for all such costs so a difficult decision for you. At the moment the non-working camera is worth zero, so perhaps the £299 is a fair compromise?

[Elp]

If they manage to repair it are they going to send it back to you free of charge ideally DDP (delivered duties paid - ie you don't bear any extra charges, most companies do not offer this though, mostly DDU where you'd have to pay any import charges and taxes).

I assume they'd assess then give you an estimate for repair. You'd have to weigh up all these cumulative charges and whether it's best put toward another camera. What's the issue with it?

Edited April 23, 2022 by Elp

[david_taurus83]

What is the fault and how do you know it cannot be fixed? I'm sure ZWO have used a UK dealer to try and fix the oil leak on the 2600's so they may also be able to perform other repairs.

[malc-c]

22 hours ago, Stuart1971 said:

Hmmm, have to disagree, as long as you send Royal Mail tracked service if it goes missing you can claim from Royal Mail, this happened to me once, and I had a successful claim, even though it was lost overseas with a partner service….you need to pay for a Royal Mail tracked service though…👍🏼

I sent a package via Royal Mail international tracked and signed for delivery service (fortunately the item wasn't as valuable as the OP's camera - It was a pair of programmed chips to repair a SW motor board) to Saudi Arabia.  It's not the fastest method, but if you want a quick service that's why DHL are so expensive.  Anyway, it was handed over to the Saudi postal services to deliver the package, who basically first claimed it was "lost in the system" and then "delivered" but couldn't / wouldn't provide a signature.  All the effort to track the parcel down had to be done at the destination end because once it had left the UK shores Royal Mail had no more information than I did which was the tracking website and couldn't help.  The recipient couldn't claim for any compo as only the sender can claim as the postage originated in the UK and not Saudi.  Royal mail refused as their "investigation" found that the parcel status had shown been delivered, and were basically accusing me and the recipient of a fraudulent  claim (which was around £30 in value).  We finally got the address of where the parcel was apparently delivered, which wasn't the one on the address label (it was next door to the commercial address on the package), and the person there claims never to of received it.  It would seem that this sort of thing is common in Saudi according to the recipient.  When presented with this information RM still refused as there was no signature recorded.  If the parcel had been reported as lost then yes I could have claimed on the insurance after the required amount of days, but in this case I / we were out of luck.  The only consolation in this was that whoever actually has the package they were going to be disappointed to find all it contained was two 16F886 Pic Microcontrollers which would be of no value to them whatsoever

[Starflyer]

@Anubis1311 where are you based, who did you buy the camera from and was it purchased new by you?

If you're in the UK you have rights as a consumer that are in addition to any manufacturer's warranty.  This explains your rights in more detail, your contract is with the retailer not the manufacturer, you must deal with them, and it is they who must arrange the repair or replacement.  Goods are expected to last a reasonable amount of time and if product a fails, even outside of the warranty period, your consumer rights still apply.

If you're outside of the UK / EU then investigate what your consumer rights are in your country.

[Adam J]

18 hours ago, Starflyer said:

@Anubis1311 where are you based, who did you buy the camera from and was it purchased new by you?

If you're in the UK you have rights as a consumer that are in addition to any manufacturer's warranty.  This explains your rights in more detail, your contract is with the retailer not the manufacturer, you must deal with them, and it is they who must arrange the repair or replacement.  Goods are expected to last a reasonable amount of time and if product a fails, even outside of the warranty period, your consumer rights still apply.

If you're outside of the UK / EU then investigate what your consumer rights are in your country.

Yes this is why I ask OP who they purchased it from originally. For example FLOs policy is here:

 

From above link:

"I bought it from First Light Optics but it is outside the warranty period.         Please contact us, we can probably help. If it needs repair or a replacement part we normally charge you only what it costs us. "

 

Adam 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Adam J

[FLO]

We are confident the camera was not purchased from FLO.

Perhaps the OP will reply and confirm? 🙂 

HTH

[Anubis1311]

Sorry guys, didn’t realise I had so many responses. Appreciate your help. Basically I bought it used from here a year ago. Worked beautifully until it just stopped working. The camera is recognised by my Asiair pro and PC if I plug it in but the camera won’t initialise to let me capture. After contacting ZWO and sending across the logs they said it needs to be repaired. It’s either the main board or daughter board, they’re not sure. It will cost around £150 to have them repair it, and I’ll have to post it. Problem is I used the money my mum left me when she died so it was a one off purchase for me. I can’t afford to buy a new one. I’ll struggle to pay for the repair to be fair so might have to wait a while before I send it off anyway. Looks like china are still in a lockdown so might be worth waiting till it’s out. 
 

Just frustrating that we’ve had quite a few clear nights since it broke 😞 

I get the point that currently it’s worth nothing so I will send it and hope. 
 

Thanks for your replies all

[Carbon Brush]

My dealings with this sort of thing have always been in the opposite direction. That being UK built kit, sold overseas, then returned to the UK for repair.

If you do end up sending for repair yourself, a general rule is that you boldly mark the export paperwork something like 'Sent to ZWO China for repair and return to UK'.
Supplement this by agreeing with ZWO that the same carrier (UPS, etc) will be used for both journeys. This solves a lot of issues.
Then the return parcel can be marked by ZWO along the lines of.. Imported from UK 01/06/2022 on waybill XYZ123, repaired, returned to UK 01/07/2022 on waybill ABC123.
If you use UPS one way then DHL for the return, they need to talk to each other, as well as UK customs. This is why you should the same carrier both ways.
You should also agree and ensure the same wording for the item description both ways.
'Astronomy camera' 'cmos camera' camera' 'low light camera' are interpreted differently by those processing the paperwork who don't know what an ASI183 is.

For value. This is difficult. There are different arguments here.

You might try to argue the outbound camera is worth nothing (well scrap value) to avoid import charges.
However, if the paper trail makes it clear that the item is for repair and return, provided the paper trail is intact, you can declare realistic prospective value for import and not be charged.
In the UK, there is a scheme to allow this process - with the strange situation that if we import a non repairable item, it must still be returned, otherwise import duty becomes payable!

If the carrier loses the parcel, you want to receive the value of a used/repaired camera, to allow you to purchase a replacement.
But if you have declared it being worth £1, that is all you stand to receive.
Then of course, certain carriers (TNT were awful in this respect) regard anything 2nd hand or faulty as worth a few ££ per ton scrap value - regards of the loss and repair circumstances.
At work we had some big arguments with TNT some years back - until we stopped using them.
Read the small print on the insurance cover very very carefully.

We have had the situation where equipment has been brought for repair, delivered in person. A long haul flight being less aggravation than import/export with certain countries.

Sorry if this sounds gloomy. It is though realistic. If you can return the camera via a UK agent/distributor, that is a much better proposition for you, but maybe slower.
You only need one wheelbarrow for the paperwork whether you are handling one camera, or 100 cameras, reducing the cost per camera.
In addition, the agent/distributor will be used to handling the paperwork.

Good luck with the repair.

David.

 

 

[malc-c]

Not sure how VAT and import duty work in this instance as duty and VAT would have been paid when the item was originally imported, with the final VAT being paid at the time of purchase.  This may require a copy of the receipt to prove that VAT has already been paid and this is  a repair and possibly exempt for any further taxes ??

Under UK consumer law it doesn't matter if the thing failed a month, or six months out of the years warranty.  Its down to expectation that an item of said value should be expected to last a certain amount of time (unless dropped or abused by the owner).  Your contract is with the retailer it was purchased from not the manufacture.  So in this case I would be going back to the retailer, quoting your consumer rights and asking them to handle the repair.  Granted if the camera is years old and has suffered the odd drop or two then that may well be chargeable, but the retailer still has the duty to repair the device for you.

[Adam J]

On 01/05/2022 at 11:37, malc-c said:

Not sure how VAT and import duty work in this instance as duty and VAT would have been paid when the item was originally imported, with the final VAT being paid at the time of purchase.  This may require a copy of the receipt to prove that VAT has already been paid and this is  a repair and possibly exempt for any further taxes ??

Under UK consumer law it doesn't matter if the thing failed a month, or six months out of the years warranty.  Its down to expectation that an item of said value should be expected to last a certain amount of time (unless dropped or abused by the owner).  Your contract is with the retailer it was purchased from not the manufacture.  So in this case I would be going back to the retailer, quoting your consumer rights and asking them to handle the repair.  Granted if the camera is years old and has suffered the odd drop or two then that may well be chargeable, but the retailer still has the duty to repair the device for you.

Basically you need to pay a processing fee and you also need to pay VAT on the cost of the repair when not under warranty. 

If it was me I would do it exactly as ZWO told OP to do it. You can assume that they do this allot. Its a paper weight right now so you need to send it and if something goes wrong then you are only back to square one. 

Adam 

[Stuart1971]

7 minutes ago, Adam J said:

Basically you need to pay a processing fee and you also need to pay VAT on the cost of the repair when not under warranty. 

If it was me I would do it exactly as ZWO told OP to do it. You can assume that they do this allot. Its a paper weight right now so you need to send it and if something goes wrong then you are only back to square one. 

Adam 

So,you would send with only £299 insurance cover against loss, or even stolen….?? 🤔🤔

If something goes wrong, like it’s  lost, he is not back to square one at all, as he gets £299 back if lucky and no camera….how is that back to square one….

[Adam J]

23 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

So,you would send with only £299 insurance cover against loss, or even stolen….?? 🤔🤔

If something goes wrong, like it’s  lost, he is not back to square one at all, as he gets £299 back if lucky and no camera….how is that back to square one….

He either ends up with £299 for a broken camera that was worthless or he ends up with a fixed camera that is now worth ~£650 on the used market. 

Also if its lost or stolen on the way to ZWO then he wont be having to pay the repair cost? I would guess minimum £200. So actually 299 + 200 gets us back to £499 and so in fact in that situation he has only lost about £150 and once you pay the inevitable £50 customs processing fee that then looks more like £100 pounds.

That £150 has to then be balanced against the likely cost of getting tagged by customs which could easily be that amount if you put down the new replacement value which is much more than that £50 processing fee. 

If its lost on the way back to him that would be ZWOs issue in my opinion and they need to sort it. 

So worst case he has £299 to put towards another used ASI183 when one comes up and they do quite often. 

As I say its all balance of risk / reward, others will see the balance differently to me as its all about perception. But if I had a bricked 183 and someone offered me 300 for it....I might be tempted. After all I have 300 pounds towards a working new / used camera and I dont have to wait 6 months to get it back or deal with any pain with customs / postage.  That would go out the window though if I could return it via a UK retailer. 

If ZWO say its causing issues if you put down a higher price...well I would take them at their word. Those problems probably involve ZWO getting charged on import to china which I am sure they will add to the repair cost of the camera. It could all easily snowball. 

 

Adam 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Adam J

[Astroscot2]

Im not sure how the port office or couriers work with their export declarations but basically the camera needs to be retuned under (OPR) outward processing relief for warranty repair, it can then be imported back in to the UK as OPR  return and the sender only pays any duty and VAT on the repair value not the value of the camera.

Mark

[Adam J]

5 hours ago, Astroscot2 said:

Im not sure how the port office or couriers work with their export declarations but basically the camera needs to be retuned under (OPR) outward processing relief for warranty repair, it can then be imported back in to the UK as OPR  return and the sender only pays any duty and VAT on the repair value not the value of the camera.

Mark

Yes, but in this case it's not a warranty repair. If you have managed to work out the OPR let me know how it's done as I read and read online and could not find any instructions that made sense. 

[Viktiste]

Since the camera is out of warranty, and the dealer suggest the fix is swapping out one or two boards, I would consider to ask the dealer if it is feasible to DYI. If they send you the board(s)...  

[Carbon Brush]

@adam J. Yes working out the intriciancies of import/export is a nightmare.
Ensuring you use the same carrier both ways was the best way we found at work.
Questions raised could very often be answered by .... refer to your earlier shipping on waybill 123456.....

@viktiste. I have a recollection of reading on SGL (somewhere) a report of someone getting a camera board shipped to the UK and having it fitted by someone with the skills and tools.
I think it may have been a ZWO camera. May be worth the OP searching through posts.
A direct import of a printed circuit board has to be worth considering.

[Adam J]

5 hours ago, Viktiste said:

Since the camera is out of warranty, and the dealer suggest the fix is swapping out one or two boards, I would consider to ask the dealer if it is feasible to DYI. If they send you the board(s)...  

It's the sort of thing I would be happy to do myself...but would the op?