Can't see M33!

[John]

I've never managed to see M33 without an optical aid of some sort. Even at the SGL star parties under darker skies than I have here, I've not managed a naked eye glimpse, as yet.

Skies are clouding over now here so I've missed my chance. But there will be others and I do love seeing NGC 604. I think it's the only deep sky object in another galaxy that I've been able to see so far

[Whistlin Bob]

11 hours ago, mdstuart said:

.I am not sure why this is but it does seem you can learn to discern things over time.

This. It doesn't make an enormous amount of sense to me, but I have found it to be completely true. M33 was an object that I failed to see at home for a very long time, despite pretty strong equipment and many attempts. Then when I did find it, it was quite underwhelming. But over time I've had a few really good views, and I'm pretty fond of it as a target. I guess it must be simply that you learn what works and what you can expect from the sky conditions on any particular night. 

[phsampaio]

Dark nights and dark adaptation, as well as some experience and persistance are essential to see M33 (and other faint DSOs). I'm relatively new in astronomy, having started just a few months ago.  After several nights attempting I could finally see M33 last weekend. It was a "Gotcha!" moment, and I was very happy. 

I was impressed with what I saw. It was very faint and fuzzy, however I could discern some heterogeneous structure and the impression of spiral arms. It's a hard object to see, but the challenge was well worth it. The night was relatively good. Bortle 4, no clouds or moon, but a lot of humidity (around 60-70%), therefore lots of skyglow. I live in the Southern hemisphere, around 22 degrees, so M33 is never more than 36 degrees in the sky, unfortunately.

Next night, same conditions, but my parents stay wake until very late and keep the light up, so I'm not as dark adapted (still relatively so). I try to find M33 all night but can't. When I finally get to it, I see only a small smudge, the galaxy core an nothing more.  Proper dark adaptation is essential for this DSO.

Edited October 18, 2020 by phsampaio

[Mark at Beaufort]

@phsampaiowelcome to SGL - I see from your IP address you live in Brazil. Nice report on seeing M33.

[ecuador]

M33 is the classic object to puzzle beginners. Even more so beginner astrophotographers. So you observe/photograph Andromeda as your first galaxy. Great, what's next? You open the messier list, filter for galaxies, sort by brightness (screenshots from PS Align's DSO database):

OK! M33 is next! You try to see or photograph it, to rather dismal results. What happened? Sorting instead the M galaxies by surface brightness would have given you an idea - to find M33 you would have to scroll to the absolute bottom:

Yup, it is 3rd from last! The magnitude is the total brightness over quite a big area, and, as M33 is quite big, the magnitude is not very representative.

The surface brightness may also be a bit misleading for big targets, as it is just the average, when they might still have a relatively bright core - so M33 is easier to see than some other galaxies with higher average surface brightnesses. But in astrophotography the surface brightness is quite telling: M33 is indeed one of the harder Messier galaxies to get good detail on.

[phsampaio]

6 hours ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

@phsampaiowelcome to SGL - I see from your IP address you live in Brazil. Nice report on seeing M33.

You can see my IP address? How?!

On a more serious note! Thanks! It's nice to be part of such awesome community!

I'll be back to my observing site next month, probably with a new set of EPs. Instead of stock plossls, I'll have a set of Morpheus and a APM 30mm. I wonder how much easier it will be to observe M33 and other faint fuzzies, since there's a lot less EOFB and less scatter in those better EPs.

Clear skies!

[Starwatcher2001]

Mark's a moderator, so I would imagine has extra special powers for keeping spammers out. Us normal users can't see IPs.

[phsampaio]

Well, that exlpains a lot! I'm just a little bit paranoid with cyber security, so I thought I had a breach for a second there... 

In any case, several Messier objects are very far north, which makes them difficult targets for us Southerners. I do plan on visiting Spain again, maybe next year, with a Stargazing trip to Sierra Morena if I can afford it. There I plan to observe all those hidden Messier objects near the Zenith! I'll just have to familiarize myself with the upside down sky...

[Mark at Beaufort]

4 hours ago, phsampaio said:

You can see my IP address? How?!

@phsampaiosorry I did not want to concern you. As a Moderator I have access to more information - you are safe we don't give out this information its to protect the system from spammers etc.

[popeye85]

4 hours ago, phsampaio said:

 

I'll be back to my observing site next month, probably with a new set of EPs. Instead of stock plossls, I'll have a set of Morpheus and a APM 30mm. 

This should make a difference- ep's are just as, if not more important than the scope itself.

[phsampaio]

6 hours ago, Mark at Beaufort said:

@phsampaiosorry I did not want to concern you. As a Moderator I have access to more information - you are safe we don't give out this information its to protect the system from spammers etc.

Thanks for the reply! I figured out as much! No worries from me.

Back on topic, I remember reading somewhere that using filters on M33 might be beneficial to reveal it. Anyone can comment on that?

[ecuador]

7 hours ago, phsampaio said:

Thanks for the reply! I figured out as much! No worries from me.

Back on topic, I remember reading somewhere that using filters on M33 might be beneficial to reveal it. Anyone can comment on that?

The short answer IMHO is "yes, but not much". The long answer is that filtering is not very easy for stellar/full spectrum objects like galaxies. You need a "generic" light pollution filter that tries to block specifically monochromatic (sodium etc) lights to increase the contrast - it cuts stellar light as well, but proportionally more light pollution. There are some cheap ones that don't help much, some more expensive ones that help more. However, given that cities are switching to LED lights, these filters become less effective.

Filters are much more effective with emission nebulae where you have specific emission lines for your target and can just cut out everything else.

[bomberbaz]

I have one definite confirmation of seeing M33 from scotland and 1 at a 2nd site that was less conclusive. 

As @John saying there is a brightening of the sky but in scotland I was under excellent bortle 2 skies with fantastic seeing on the very settled night, the best skies i have ever been under. So not only did i get the brightening of the sky but the spiral arms were kind of jumping out like some kind of animation.

It's hard to really explain but it was simply amazing and something that will live with me forever. I got many great views of great objects that night, but that was icing on the cake.

cheers

[John]

I've never found filters really help with galaxies. Nebulae, yes, but not galaxies in general. Dark skies are the key for galaxies.

 

[Mr Flibble]

Yes dark and transparent skies. I've been under dark skies and failed to see M33 because the transparency has been poor.

I've settled into an observing routine where I'll pick out a few faint galaxies early on in the night just to get an idea of what the night ahead will be like.

Some nights if its clear but poor transparency I'll settle for hunting for star clusters rather than galaxies just to avoid getting frustrated. And then I'll concentrate on hunting galaxies when those special nights come along!

[ollypenrice]

Move the telescope. That's the secret. I also think that the natural movement of hand held binoculars explains why so many people on this thread have seen it with them. 

Get the scope pointing where M33 ought to be, loosen the clutches, and scan the area by hand, moving the tube slowly. When you move past it you have a fighting chance of seeing an extended patch of very slightly brighter sky. That's M33. When using a Dob I do this a lot, I 'nod' the scope up and down, and that slight movement makes things pop into view. I dare say it varies from person to person but this technique is incredibly effective for me.

I live at a very dark site with lots of clear nights but I have never come anywhere near seeing M33 naked eye. M31 is dead easy.

Olly

[jetstream]

26 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

I live at a very dark site with lots of clear nights

You and I have similar skies Olly and I have a problem with the Bortle scale... I find it misleading. M33 in bortle 4??!! It takes my very best skies for me to see M33 naked eye- rain washed or snow washed. My SQM varies from 21.5-21.9 with an avg on excellent nights of 21.8.

To others in this thread- M33 NAKED EYE IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT!

These days I simply use the look of the Milky Way- if its shows sharp structure galaxies will be good- if it reflects off my car windshield and looks very jagged, with constellations being difficult to see for stars- galaxies will be excellent, superb.

Under these good skies mentioned M33 is a bright puff ball in the H130- its better to make this galaxy smaller than bigger if all you want to do is see it (no structure).

Of course these are just my opinions.

Edited October 23, 2020 by jetstream

[BinocularSky]

Re @ollypenrice's "nodding" the scope: a similar technique that I have found to be useful with a scope of a mounted binocular is to give it a sharp tap with my fingertips or gloved knuckles while using averted vision - the shiver can reveal things that were hitherto invisible - and they remain visible.

[John]

Agreed - gentle scope tapping or wobbling is a good way to reveal a faint surface brightness target.

 

[jock1958]

23 hours ago, ollypenrice said:

 loosen the clutches, and scan the area by hand, moving the tube slowly. 

Thats exactly what I do and how I first saw the Veil.  Got to admit this technique hasn't worked for me on M33 or M101 yet,  probably due to my Bortle 5 skies & continuously bad weather 😩

[ollypenrice]

I've used tappng for revealing star colour. I don't think I've tried it for going deep. I'll give it a go.

Olly

[phsampaio]

It makes sense moving the telescope, since our eyes and brains are better at detecting movement than they are at defining contrast