Can't see M33!

[dd999]

I had a relatively clear night last night, and was trying to find M33 using my goto mount.

I'm using a 5" SW 130PDS, and a 28mm EP but (and it's the 2nd or 3rd time I've tried) I can't see it. For something that's just about naked eye visible in the clearest of dark skies, I would have thought with this scope and low eyepiece I should have seen it. I attached my dslr to the scope, and with a 20sec sub I could see it (it was in the corner of the image), so assuming the dslr FOV is not greater than the 28mm EP (?) I thought I should have seen something.

I can see M31 quite clearly (although I know it's a lot brighter).

Or in Bortle 4 (probably nearer Bortle 5 skies) am I expecting too much of my 130pds, or would a better EP be more suitable?

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by dd999

[John]

M33 is a low surface brightness galaxy. It is a lot fainter and harder to see than M31. Your scope will be able to see it with a very low power eyepiece if the skies are dark and transparent.

M101 is in a similar category to M33 - harder to actually see than you might at first think from the published magnitude figures.

It is worth persevering with M33 on a dark night - there is a star forming nebula within the galaxy known as NGC 604 which can also be glimpsed with moderate aperture scopes.

To start with you will only see M33 as a vague patch of light between 4 stars - almost a subtle lightening of the background sky.

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-blogs/paradoxical-messier-33/

[jetstream]

24 minutes ago, dd999 said:

I had a relatively clear night last night, and was trying to find M33 using my goto mount.

I'm using a 5" SW 130PDS, and a 28mm EP but (and it's the 2nd or 3rd time I've tried) I can't see it. For something that's just about naked eye visible in the clearest of dark skies, I would have thought with this scope and low eyepiece I should have seen it. I attached my dslr to the scope, and with a 20sec sub I could see it (it was in the corner of the image), so assuming the dslr FOV is not greater than the 28mm EP (?) I thought I should have seen something.

I can see M31 quite clearly (although I know it's a lot brighter).

Or in Bortle 4 (probably nearer Bortle 5 skies) am I expecting too much of my 130pds, or would a better EP be more suitable?

 

What did the Milky Way look like when you tried to observe it?

[Peter Drew]

M33 is not only faint, it is also large and doesn't easily stand out in the field of a telescope even at low power.  Oddly, I find it easier to spot it initially in binoculars as there is more sky surrounding it such that the contrast seems better.       🙂

[dd999]

12 minutes ago, John said:

M33 is a low surface brightness galaxy. It is a lot fainter and harder to see than M31. Your scope will be able to see it with a very low power eyepiece if the skies are dark and transparent.

M101 is in a similar category to M33 - harder to actually see than you might at first think from the published magnitude figures.

It is worth persevering with M33 on a dark night - there is a star forming nebula within the galaxy known as NGC 604 which can also be glimpsed with moderate aperture scopes.

To start with you will only see M33 as a vague patch of light between 4 stars - almost a subtle lightening of the background sky.

https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-blogs/paradoxical-messier-33/

Thanks John

I've struggled with M101 too. I tried with averted gaze in the eyepiece, but couldn't see. I'll have a look through some images and diagrams to familiarize myself with the 'four star' pattern to help locate first.  I think I will try more with my dslr. Only managed a single shot before the clouds started rolling in.

Will give it another go the next clear night (whenever that may be atm!)

[dd999]

13 minutes ago, jetstream said:

What did the Milky Way look like when you tried to observe it?

I didn't really look or notice. Wasn't particularly visible from memory, as I didn't really notice it. 

[dd999]

8 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

M33 is not only faint, it is also large and doesn't easily stand out in the field of a telescope even at low power.  Oddly, I find it easier to spot it initially in binoculars as there is more sky surrounding it such that the contrast seems better.       🙂

Nice tip - will take the bins out with me next time!

[jetstream]

8 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

as there is more sky surrounding it such that the contrast seems better. 

Yes, our Heritage 130 and 24mm ES 68 gives this. The view of M33 is bright, no structure in this scope here.

[jetstream]

1 minute ago, dd999 said:

I didn't really look or notice. Wasn't particularly visible from memory, as I didn't really notice it. 

In my wanderings through the sky I've noticed that if the Milky Way isn't prominent all DSO, espc M33 and M101 are more difficult. In dark skies with your 28mm EP it will be bright with your scope.

One thing that might show it to you is a higher power, wider TFOV EP- does your scope take 2" EPs?

[Paul M]

It took me 30 odd  years to get my first view of M33. The solution was a dark sky!

Couldn't see it with my 6" newt from my home sky, Bortle Shnortle , no idea but I'm on the Fylde conurbation - home of the wonderful Blackpool illuminations that bleach my southern horizon in autumn and early winter.

From rural Cumbria I finally got it with 10 x 50's. Now I know, it's actually quite easy from a dark site!

[Mark at Beaufort]

I can usually see M33 and M101 with my 15x70 binos as Peter mentioned above.

If its clear over the next few nights I will have a go with the 130 Heritage and 24mm EP - fov - 2 degree 31' and report back

 

[BinocularSky]

47 minutes ago, John said:

almost a subtle lightening of the background sky.

That's exactly it - it's not so much an "object" as what you describe.

 

39 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

I find it easier to spot it initially in binoculars

Same here.

[DaveS]

I can see M33 in my Vortex Crossfire 10x50s, but I'm at the dark end of Bortle 4, very nearly 3 and the MW is bright, detailed and glittering. At least it is when the sky is cooperating.

[Cosmic Geoff]

I have never seen M33 (or M1), despite looking for them on occasions. I think that very dark skies are needed. 

I managed to get faint images of them with my EEVA setup, which underlined the difficulty of seeing them visually.

[John]

I have seen M33 with a 7x35 binoculars on a really good night here. It does help, as usual, to know where it is and roughly what to look for. That is a challenge for first time searchers of these more subtle deep sky objects - not quite knowing what to expect or look out for. Certainly not what the images look like generally !

I've not yet managed to see M1 with binoculars although I know others have. Quite often through scopes though. M1 (the Crab Nebula) is a lot smaller than M33. Considering it's fame, it's not a striking object in small and medium sized apertures, not even larger ones if the transparency of the sky is mediocre.

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by John

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Binoculars are my weapon of choice for M33, either that or my 80 mm refractor at 15.5x (Nagler 31T5) or 22x (Nagler 22T4). I am hoping to get a chance with my Meade SN6 6" F/5 Schmidt-Newton, which should be ideal (3.2 deg true field of view with the Nagler 31T5). 

[dd999]

2 hours ago, jetstream said:

In my wanderings through the sky I've noticed that if the Milky Way isn't prominent all DSO, espc M33 and M101 are more difficult. In dark skies with your 28mm EP it will be bright with your scope.

One thing that might show it to you is a higher power, wider TFOV EP- does your scope take 2" EPs?

Yes it does take 2" eyepieces - my 28mm is a 2"

My skies are probably not dark enough. But as John mentions the biggest challenge is knowing what you're looking for even if you have it in your FOV. I found the same with M101 and M51. I need to dust the cover off my copy of Turn Left at Orion.  

M31 is relatively easy as the 'smudge' is very apparent in the FOV - but others, not so much.

[Jiggy 67]

1 minute ago, dd999 said:

M31 is relatively easy as the 'smudge' is very apparent in the FOV - but others, not so much.

Galaxies are my nemesis in my light polluted skies!! I find them to be the most difficult of dso’s 

[runway77]

Galaxies really need a dark location and the seeing conditions need to be good as well. The sky might seem to be clear but there can be a thin layer of clouds or haze in the air and it makes a huge difference whether one can see spiral arms or just a hazy patch of light.

[mdstuart]

...but once you have managed to see it you will find it much easier next time..I am not sure why this is but it does seem you can learn to discern things over time.

It's almost as though once you know what you are looking for it becomes easier. 

Keep trying, especially on nights with a clear NW or N airflow and no moon.

Mark

[Nyctimene]

Under 5.5 mag/SQM-L 21.1 skies, I've spotted M 33 repeatedly with my tiniest optical device, a Docter 6x21 monocular (excellent optical quality - Zeiss). 130 mm aperture are more than enough under decent dark skies; give it a try, and have patience; good luck!

Stephan

Edited October 12, 2020 by Nyctimene

[geoflewis]

5 hours ago, Peter Drew said:

M33 is not only faint, it is also large and doesn't easily stand out in the field of a telescope even at low power.  Oddly, I find it easier to spot it initially in binoculars as there is more sky surrounding it such that the contrast seems better.       🙂

I agree with Peter, from my Bortle 4 skies is fairly easy with my Apollo 15x70 binoculars as the wide FOV allows the subtle constrast difference of the galaxy to be seen against the darker surrounding sky.

[DaveS]

M33 very clear in the 10x50s, even though it's barely 30 deg up and still in the Weymouth / Dorchester LP. Will have to try again when it's higher, may even be on the edge of naked eye visibility.

[geoflewis]

2 minutes ago, DaveS said:

M33 very clear in the 10x50s, even though it's barely 30 deg up and still in the Weymouth / Dorchester LP. Will have to try again when it's higher, may even be on the edge of naked eye visibility.

Dave, I think that you'd get it naked eye at your location, at least with averted vision. I can sometimes get it with AV from home, which I suspect is pretty similar to you (bortle 4 heading towards bortle 3). When the sky is really crisp, I can even see it with direct vision, but only after I've located it with AV. It can be a tricky one that flits in and out with my older eyes nowadays.

[Mark at Beaufort]

I have just come in after using the Heritage 130 and was able to observe M33 without difficulty. EPs used ES68 24mm + Celestron Duo 17mm. However, the best view was using the Helios Apollo 15x70 binos.

So keep trying your 130mm scope will show it well.