Moon In OVL Binoviewers - First Light

[Alan White]

Interesting point from all on this thread as usual.
This thread just feeds my want monster for a binoviewer and getting started.
But sadly at present the Observing Pad is killing my funds and amount is still needed at some point.
So BV is very much on the cards, but will miss the Mars extravaganza this year 😥

 

[Telescope40]

Hello all. Great idea from Dave @F15Rules

If any of our friends from FLO read this, I would love it if they could commission two reviews of the new Maxbrights..one by our resident King of binoviewing, MikeDnight, a fully paid up fan of binoviewing, and the other by John, our resident King of single eyepiece reviewing, but a much more sceptical bv user based on previous experiences. 

We might then find out whether binoviewing is about to become much more attractive an observing option to many...or not?? Either way two such reviews would make fascinating reading!

Thanks for bearing with me thinking out loud

Dave

Im really interested in these. @FLO could well get a few orders as a follow up.  Might I suggest @Stuas a “backup reviewer” or tester No 3. 
 

No rush. Birthday ain’t till August. A few planets kicking about too 👍👍
 

John 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Telescope40

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, F15Rules said:

I have been in both camps..waxing lyrical about jaw dropping views and almost giving up on them. I therefore can identify with both Doug's and Mike's infectious enthusiasm (thanks, Doug and Mike!), and John's genuine desire to like them but just not quite "getting them"..(I have felt that more than once, John).

I've thought a lot about this, and here are a few conclusions that might just be helpful. Bear with me...

1. I like viewing to be simple (whether cyclops or with both eyes). I've spent far too much time (and money!) in the past, buying and trying umpteen eyepieces, often based on other, respected observers' reviews and opinions. But often, if I'm honest, I have struggled to see ANY meaningful difference or benefit between my then existing eyepieces, and newer and/or "better" ones. But I used to feel that because all these other people were raving about eyepiece "a" as compared to eyepiece "b", then I needed to try them out to improve my views. All too often I ended up disappointed, frustrated and, often, a good deal poorer! And so, observing sessions of 2 hours ended up with me only really observing (ie really studying) objects for maybe 20 minutes - the rest of the time faffing about swapping out eyepieces, ruining my night vision with a torch in the process, and generally getting more and more frustrated.

So nowadays I have far fewer eyepieces, of very modest cash value, but I am enjoying my observing more, and getting more proper viewing done, for longer, in each session.

2. With binoviewing, much of the above is also true. However, I believe that the mechanicals are also a big factor. First among these is correct collimation: two eyes are only better than one if the binoviewer can show properly aligned images. Some people have genuine problems merging images, but I believe that in many cases this is made worse by poorly adjusted equipment. Maybe this isn't too surprising, given that most of us use binoviewers that cost us between £100 and £200: compare the complexity of such a binoviewer with a single eyepiece of a similar cost, which is usually so much simpler in terms of components.

Most of the entry level bvs in use come from a very few factories with the same basic design, and are "built to a budget". I would dare to guess, with the benefit of hindsight, that probably 5 of the 7 or so pairs of bvs I have owned were not perfectly collimated: useable (especially at lower powers), but not so at higher powers. Ironically, I think my current, later model Revelation set, are one of the two sets I have owned that seem pretty much spot on.

But I feel it's very common for people's expectations to be disappointed when they first try binoviewing.

3. Too much "faffing about". I have always found the sheer number of adjustments that seem to be needed when using bvs to be really off-putting. Eg Tiny screws on each eyepiece holder, different types, most scopes needing an OCS/ Barlow lens to bring them to focus, too high magnification by using a Barlow, too narrow a field of view compared to a single wide angle eyepiece, etc. And on top of that, you can end up with a large, weighty, complicated assembly of component parts hanging out of your eyepiece tube or focuser, with the real likelihood of inadvertently unscrewing or adjusting the wrong screw in the dark and then getting that sickening  pit-of-the-stomach feeling as your big stack of parts including a pair of costly eyepieces almost fall the the ground as they unthread themselves!😱..

...and then, when you want to change the magnification up or down, it can seem as though you have to spend ages disassembling and reassembling the whole wretched edifice, making doubly sure this time that everything is secure (cos your poor old ticker can't take another fright like that, can it?!!).

And then, when you want to view something else in a different part of the sky, you have to move the scope and then realise that now this heavy edifice hanging off the back end of the scope is upside down, so you'd better rotate to scope in it's rings "PDQ," or the whole lot might fall out on the the concrete slabbing that you decided to set your rig up on tonight because "the grass was wet"!!

4. In the light of all the above, I now only view a few objects in a session when binoviewing. I have simple, cheap pairs of eyepieces which I don't need to fret about if there's a mishap, and I only view objects which are bright enough..eg, no DSOs, nebulae or tight doubles (as I personally feel a single eyepiece resolves a stellar point better). But the Moon, planets and some clusters, including globulars, can present really well in binoviewers. And I use absolutely the minimum number of components in the optical train that I have to.

5. Finally, having read  Bill Pauolini's review of the new Baader Maxbrights, I really feel that at long last, a manufacturer has tried seriously to take on board the weaknesses if traditional bvs, and made some very worthwhile design changes which should enable binoviewing to be MUCH simpler, and therefore more satisfying.

If any of our friends from FLO read this, I would love it if they could commission two reviews of the new Maxbrights..one by our resident King of binoviewing, MikeDnight, a fully paid up fan of binoviewing, and the other by John, our resident King of single eyepiece reviewing, but a much more sceptical bv user based on previous experiences. 

We might then find out whether binoviewing is about to become much more attractive an observing option to many...or not?? Either way two such reviews would make fascinating reading!

Thanks for bearing with me thinking out loud😊

Dave

Excellent post Dave.  Binoviewers & bino viewing can cause a lot of pain for some observers. I allowed one of my astronomer friends to spend an evening with my revelation Binoviewers on his own scope around five years ago. When I came to use them again I had to spend an hour trying to get the images to merge. So it seems that even with a binoviewer that is fully functioning unit, they can take a lot of time to fine tune to the individual. Since then, most observers looking through my binoviewer seem to have very little difficulty getting a merged image, but I am careful to explain how to adjust the eye separation and individual focus.

Interestingly, I have been contemplating buying the Baader binoviewer you mentioned. Just a bit cautious about spending so much just incase there is no noticeable gain! 

As regards the time consuming aspect when changing eyepieces or adjusting the angle of the viewer, I simply take the Hamlet cigar advert- relaxed, contemplative approach. After all, its more enjoyable than whatever's on tv. In fact I can't remember ever getting stressed over anything while observing, such a peaceful mild tempered chap that I am!

[JeremyS]

1 hour ago, mikeDnight said:

Interestingly, I have been contemplating buying the Baader binoviewer you mentioned. Just a bit cautious about spending so much just incase there is no noticeable gain! 

I think they brought out a limited version just for you Mike: Baader MaxBright DZ

🙂

 

[mikeDnight]

1 hour ago, JeremyS said:

I think they brought out a limited version just for you Mike: Baader MaxBright DZ

🙂

 

You're just trying to start me off again, aren't you!?

[Stu]

4 hours ago, F15Rules said:

I have been in both camps..waxing lyrical about jaw dropping views and almost giving up on them. I therefore can identify with both Doug's and Mike's infectious enthusiasm (thanks, Doug and Mike!), and John's genuine desire to like them but just not quite "getting them"..(I have felt that more than once, John).

I've thought a lot about this, and here are a few conclusions that might just be helpful. Bear with me...

1. I like viewing to be simple (whether cyclops or with both eyes). I've spent far too much time (and money!) in the past, buying and trying umpteen eyepieces, often based on other, respected observers' reviews and opinions. But often, if I'm honest, I have struggled to see ANY meaningful difference or benefit between my then existing eyepieces, and newer and/or "better" ones. But I used to feel that because all these other people were raving about eyepiece "a" as compared to eyepiece "b", then I needed to try them out to improve my views. All too often I ended up disappointed, frustrated and, often, a good deal poorer! And so, observing sessions of 2 hours ended up with me only really observing (ie really studying) objects for maybe 20 minutes - the rest of the time faffing about swapping out eyepieces, ruining my night vision with a torch in the process, and generally getting more and more frustrated.

So nowadays I have far fewer eyepieces, of very modest cash value, but I am enjoying my observing more, and getting more proper viewing done, for longer, in each session.

2. With binoviewing, much of the above is also true. However, I believe that the mechanicals are also a big factor. First among these is correct collimation: two eyes are only better than one if the binoviewer can show properly aligned images. Some people have genuine problems merging images, but I believe that in many cases this is made worse by poorly adjusted equipment. Maybe this isn't too surprising, given that most of us use binoviewers that cost us between £100 and £200: compare the complexity of such a binoviewer with a single eyepiece of a similar cost, which is usually so much simpler in terms of components.

Most of the entry level bvs in use come from a very few factories with the same basic design, and are "built to a budget". I would dare to guess, with the benefit of hindsight, that probably 5 of the 7 or so pairs of bvs I have owned were not perfectly collimated: useable (especially at lower powers), but not so at higher powers. Ironically, I think my current, later model Revelation set, are one of the two sets I have owned that seem pretty much spot on.

But I feel it's very common for people's expectations to be disappointed when they first try binoviewing.

3. Too much "faffing about". I have always found the sheer number of adjustments that seem to be needed when using bvs to be really off-putting. Eg Tiny screws on each eyepiece holder, different types, most scopes needing an OCS/ Barlow lens to bring them to focus, too high magnification by using a Barlow, too narrow a field of view compared to a single wide angle eyepiece, etc. And on top of that, you can end up with a large, weighty, complicated assembly of component parts hanging out of your eyepiece tube or focuser, with the real likelihood of inadvertently unscrewing or adjusting the wrong screw in the dark and then getting that sickening  pit-of-the-stomach feeling as your big stack of parts including a pair of costly eyepieces almost fall the the ground as they unthread themselves!😱..

...and then, when you want to change the magnification up or down, it can seem as though you have to spend ages disassembling and reassembling the whole wretched edifice, making doubly sure this time that everything is secure (cos your poor old ticker can't take another fright like that, can it?!!).

And then, when you want to view something else in a different part of the sky, you have to move the scope and then realise that now this heavy edifice hanging off the back end of the scope is upside down, so you'd better rotate to scope in it's rings "PDQ," or the whole lot might fall out on the the concrete slabbing that you decided to set your rig up on tonight because "the grass was wet"!!

4. In the light of all the above, I now only view a few objects in a session when binoviewing. I have simple, cheap pairs of eyepieces which I don't need to fret about if there's a mishap, and I only view objects which are bright enough..eg, no DSOs, nebulae or tight doubles (as I personally feel a single eyepiece resolves a stellar point better). But the Moon, planets and some clusters, including globulars, can present really well in binoviewers. And I use absolutely the minimum number of components in the optical train that I have to.

5. Finally, having read  Bill Paolini's review of the new Baader Maxbrights, I really feel that at long last, a manufacturer has tried seriously to take on board the weaknesses of traditional bvs, and made some very worthwhile design changes which should enable binoviewing to be MUCH simpler, and therefore more satisfying.

If any of our friends from FLO read this, I would love it if they could commission two reviews of the new Maxbrights..one by our resident King of binoviewing, MikeDnight, a fully paid up fan of binoviewing, and the other by John, our resident King of single eyepiece reviewing, but a much more sceptical bv user based on previous experiences. 

We might then find out whether binoviewing is about to become much more attractive an observing option to many...or not?? Either way two such reviews would make fascinating reading!

Thanks for bearing with me thinking out loud😊

Dave

Excellent post Dave, and one which in many ways mirrors my experiences. I’ve tried many difference scopes and eyepieces but have in many ways settled on a couple of favourite setups which get regular use without change.

Take my white light solar setup. I use a Baader Mark IV binoviewer which has very basic eyepiece holders with single set screws and no diopter adjustment. This sounds a recipe for miscollimation but the fact is the holders are machined to very tight tolerances so the eyepieces fit very snugly with no slop, the screws just stop them falling out really.   They so tight in fact that some 1.25” eyepieces won’t fit!

I tried a number of different eyepieces, then discovered some old Zeiss converted Ortho microscope eyepieces with 25mm effective focal length, and adjustable diopter on each one. These are very low scatter, have lovely big exit lenses and good eye relief.

Thats fine, but they give relative low mags, so need hefty barlowing to get to the high powers I use for solar. A x1.7 GPC makes a start at it, then I use an AP Barcon either directly or with extension tubes to get up to the x200 odd I like. Rather than change the eyepieces, I just add or remove extension tubes to vary the power without faffing round changing eyepieces.

The whole setup looks quite cumbersome and needs some care to use but it gives me results which I really enjoy, very sharp and loads of detail in the Tak; I do believe that using high quality components throughout adds up to better visibility of fine detail at high power when conditions allow.

I quite agree that settling on a preferred setup that works for you allows you crack on and enjoy the views without constant ‘what if’ questions in you head or wasting time constantly switching between setups.

I love the look of the Baader Maxbrights and think I will invest in a pair when funds allow to use in my PST Mod.

[Alan White]

4 hours ago, mikeDnight said:

Interestingly, I have been contemplating buying the Baader binoviewer you mentioned. Just a bit cautious about spending so much just in case there is no noticeable gain! 

And your a Lancastrian, sounds like Yorkshire thinking that.

2 hours ago, JeremyS said:

I think they brought out a limited version just for you Mike: Baader MaxBright DZ

🙂

You missed the 'Hamlet' bit out Jeremey.......

'The Hamlet Baader MaxBright DZ' as is befitting a gentleman observer such as Mr Dnight 😉

[Highburymark]

On 02/05/2020 at 10:56, John said:

The TMB/LZOS 130mm F/9.2 triplet I picture above is BV friendly - it has a section of the focuser that slides in about 13cm so you can get to focus without the need for a barlow or other optical adapter.

FLO kindly loaned me the above WO BV's for a few months so I had ample opportunity to try them at no cost.

Sorry Doug - I didn't want to hijack your thread about your very nice new setup.

 

Nice review Doug.

I did a review of the OVL binoviewer (broadly the same as the WO/TS//Revelation/SW etc units, in that they probably all come out of the same factory) versus the Baader MarkV a few months ago on SGL - in common with many others’ experience, the views on axis are very similar, despite the huge price difference. 
But for someone like you John who has struggled with binoviewing in the past, I think the two images are much easier to merge with the MkV than the cheaper binos. I presume the new wider field Maxbright 2 would also be more user friendly, though can’t be 100% certain. So if you borrow a Baader pair the next time you try, you might find them much more comfortable. 

[Mariner74]

My first post on SGL and I just wanted to say that it is great to read the enthusiasm in some of the previous posts around binos. For those who have struggled with them it just reminds me that everyone is different, but good on you for trying so hard.

I bought a second hand WO pair on ABS a couple of years ago and the lunar views through my 300mm dob were truly jaw-dropping. After decades of viewing through low-cost small scopes it was brilliant to view the moon with amazing clarity and detail. My son who has better eyesight even commented that it would be hard to see how any improvement could be possible.

 I must have been lucky to have set them up without issue and as the seller told me, lunar views with the binoviewer are incredible. He wasn't exaggerating.

Cheers

[Paz]

This has been a helpful thread to read. I've really wanted to use Binoviewers and have tried a few but so far have not got them to work with them all looking out of collimation to my eyes. I'll be interested to see reviews of the new Baader binoviewer as that may be a prospect.