Second Scope Advice

[Stardaze]

Hey folks, I've been one of those lurkers for a while and finally made the plunge as I really would like to hear your advice please.

So my main passion to date is photography and so there's a little over-lap in places, but I'm well aware of Gear Acquisition Syndrome and can vouch for £000's of kit for that passion. Please bare with me here, as I'm a little more methodical, I'd like to think these days, and so I'd like some specific advice to some of my thoughts below.

I've fancied a telescope for some time and so the wife bought me a starter SW 130 around 4 years ago. I had a play but didn't do much else with it, until recently. I had studied the sky a little and this forms much of my thoughts as to the appropriate upgrades as I'd like to tackle it as very much part of the learning process.

I have changed the finder scope and have both an 8mm and 18mm BST eyepiece hopefully arriving today (gutted I didn't have them last night!) The big bug-bare at the moment is the poor EQ2 mount, especially the Dec lock, it's pretty dire. So I've been contemplating the upgrade path, as you do. Initially, I thought I'd do this in incremental steps - EQ5, then bolt on a Synscan, then an SW 130/150PDS tube. The real issue is, do I really just pay the extra for an HEQ5, as the EQ5 will be on it's limit for what I was thinking (150 or ideally, 200PDS). I have been a little 'inspired' by the 130PDS thread too of late. The feeling has been that, in time, I could have a half decent mount to support a reflector, and something like a SW skybox pro 150 giving me sone flexibility. Let's gets back to basics..

I want to learn the basics of the night sky. I don't have any absolute specifics that I wish to delve further into at the moment. I do seem to sway towards planets, but equally like the idea of DSO. So, with this in mind, and a key question, would a scanning system so early on actually benefit me? Doing things 'manually' from apps/maps might be slow, but will it help me better in the medium term? Or should I just grab a syncscan type system from the get-go? The HEQ5 doesn't seem to be available without Synscan, and so a big investment early on.

I would like a relatively portable system, one that I can store in the garage and move around the garden. Most of the time I will be observing from the garden but may make some trips somewhere local to open up the southern sky a little more. Appreciate that large dobs offer a lot for their money, but the lack of tracking (at a sensible price) and sheer size, doesn't appeal.

The other avenue is to make use of what I have, but upgrade to the midrange EQ5 mount. Then maybe make the substantial jump to a Nexstar 6 or 8SE in 12-18 months time. And this is where gear mentality comes in. Part of me wants to either earn the right to such capable kit; work out whether I'm serious about this properly for the long term; or do you just jump straight to this first, knowing that incremental steps along the way will cost you in selling on kit etc? Or, most importantly, will that actually help me in the learning process?

Just to end with one other key question. I currently really only wish to view, rather than any astrophotography. Sure I have capable cameras around, but I don't have too much desire to picture anything so much, just yet. 

Anyway, thanks to anyone who stops by to read this and hopefully offer some sage old advice. I've seen plenty of these type of first posts on photo forums , but equally, I know some of the pitfalls early on and a gentle prod in the right direction can be extremely useful. Thanks in advance.

 

 

[Timebandit]

 

 

Hello and welcome to SGL

You seem to be torn between visual and AP.  Personally I think you should be looking at two scopes. The short answer something like a SW 200mm , Dob for your visual. These 200mm reflector scopes are so versatile and great for planetary, DSO, and Luna and no budget busting either on your wallet. Probably the best bang for buck scope available. Look out in the SGL sales section, some great scopes at good prices

For AP I would be looking at something like a SW 80 ED these scopes do come up at very sensible money second hand also . And a good 80ED has a great reputation for producing fine AP quality, . When it comes to mounts do not skip on quality here. Needs to be solid and accurate with tracking capabilities, or otherwise a quality scope will not produce the goods if matched to an inferior Mount.

For AP also recommend the book "Every Photon Counts"

 

Hope this helps

 

 

[Stardaze]

20 minutes ago, Timebandit said:

 

 

Hello and welcome to SGL

You seem to be torn between visual and AP.  Personally I think you should be looking at two scopes. The short answer something like a SW 200mm , Dob for your visual. These 200mm reflector scopes are so versatile and great for planetary, DSO, and Luna and no budget busting either on your wallet. Probably the best bang for buck scope available. Look out in the SGL sales section, some great scopes at good prices

For AP I would be looking at something like a SW 80 ED these scopes do come up at very sensible money second hand also . And a good 80ED has a great reputation for producing fine AP quality, . When it comes to mounts do not skip on quality here. Needs to be solid and accurate with tracking capabilities, or otherwise a quality scope will not produce the goods if matched to an inferior Mount.

For AP also recommend the book "Every Photon Counts"

 

Hope this helps

 

 

Thanks for stopping by to comment. Definitely only visual at this time. But you’ve found the problem right there. 200 seems to be the sweet spot but the weight is right on the limit of the EQ5. If I went HEQ5 with syncscan and SW 200PDS, that combo works out the same as a NexStar 6SE...

[Ricochet]

2 hours ago, Stardaze said:

Thanks for stopping by to comment. Definitely only visual at this time. But you’ve found the problem right there. 200 seems to be the sweet spot but the weight is right on the limit of the EQ5. If I went HEQ5 with syncscan and SW 200PDS, that combo works out the same as a NexStar 6SE...

Time bandit isn't suggesting a 200PDS. He's suggesting a Skyliner 200P, a scope that comes with its own Dobsonian base, and that you only ever use for visual astronomy, not astrophotography. An 8" dob is as good an all round visual instrument as you can find, and will allow you to decide if you enjoy astronomy enough to invest in a set up for astrophotography, as well as whether you want to specialise in planets or DSOs, which have different requirements in terms of both scope and mount. 

[Stardaze]

18 minutes ago, Ricochet said:

Time bandit isn't suggesting a 200PDS. He's suggesting a Skyliner 200P, a scope that comes with its own Dobsonian base, and that you only ever use for visual astronomy, not astrophotography. An 8" dob is as good an all round visual instrument as you can find, and will allow you to decide if you enjoy astronomy enough to invest in a set up for astrophotography, as well as whether you want to specialise in planets or DSOs, which have different requirements in terms of both scope and mount. 

Ah, my apologies, I see. My concern with a dob is the moving of it and uneven ground. Both the spots at home I favour aren't very level. Maybe I'll look into a diy fix as these do offer the best bang for money there is. 

[Carbon Brush]

Hi and welcome.

Astrophotography costs can be on a par with tearing up £20 notes. further there can be lots and lots of frustration when a whole evening results in a few fuzzy blobs.

With a 'put down, look, enjoy' scope you will get far more out of the hobby and be able to share views with others.
You will also get a feel for whether you want to pursue the hobby in other directions.

A Skywatcher 200dob is a good choice. Big light gather, nice optics and easily portable. If you garden is on a hill, well a couple of bricks and a paving slab will provide a (near enough) level place to view.

If you have the 200 dob tube, you can fasten it to an EQ5, you just need some rings.It well within weight for visual use.

For travelling. The tube goes on the back seat and dob/EQ5 mount in the boot.

If you look (on SGL for sale section) you will be able to find something used that looks interesting.
Stuff on SGL is generally well looked after and any warts declared.
Alternatively, if you buy new, always use a 'proper' astro retailer. Check out the reports in the supplier reviews section.
FLO (the site sponsors) generally get first chance on my new kit spend.

Keep asking, we are all happy to help. David.

 

[happy-kat]

Perhaps for visuall the bundle of a 150p on an altaz4 might work for you and if that's the 150pds then you've the OTA for a heq5 at a later date maybe.

[Rob]

Not suggesting any particular here. But I'm going to provide combinations I have/had have and what sits well with what!

SW150PDS - EQ5

SW200PDS - HEQ5

ED80 - EQ5 or HEQ5 alike

I have used several dobs and enjoyed them its fair to say. I am an EQ man in the main. The SW150PDS on the EQ5 is great setup & easy to manage. Remember its focal length is shorter, so for wide field its a beauty. It can do planets  mind you with a decent Barlow. The 200PDS is a great scope, if EQ or Dob mounted. A nice step up from the 130P.. for visual it sits OK on the EQ5 (some shakes hence the match to a HEQ5). The ED80 is rock solid on a EQ5.. Optics crisp for visual, mags can be pushed on a good night, so good on Planets.. though aperture will win. However rewarding on most nights.. the moon is a joy!.

Well.. thats my summing up for now. The others sure have made good points. Take your time on deciding.. research LOTS!.. its free, and will pay you back in spades. Try and take a look through what you can at clubs & open evenings (after COVID-19).

Best Rob 

[Stardaze]

3 hours ago, Stardaze said:

Ah, my apologies, I see. My concern with a dob is the moving of it and uneven ground. Both the spots at home I favour aren't very level. Maybe I'll look into a diy fix as these do offer the best bang for money there is. 

 

2 hours ago, Carbon Brush said:

Hi and welcome.

Astrophotography costs can be on a par with tearing up £20 notes. further there can be lots and lots of frustration when a whole evening results in a few fuzzy blobs.

With a 'put down, look, enjoy' scope you will get far more out of the hobby and be able to share views with others.
You will also get a feel for whether you want to pursue the hobby in other directions.

A Skywatcher 200dob is a good choice. Big light gather, nice optics and easily portable. If you garden is on a hill, well a couple of bricks and a paving slab will provide a (near enough) level place to view.

If you have the 200 dob tube, you can fasten it to an EQ5, you just need some rings.It well within weight for visual use.

For travelling. The tube goes on the back seat and dob/EQ5 mount in the boot.

If you look (on SGL for sale section) you will be able to find something used that looks interesting.
Stuff on SGL is generally well looked after and any warts declared.
Alternatively, if you buy new, always use a 'proper' astro retailer. Check out the reports in the supplier reviews section.
FLO (the site sponsors) generally get first chance on my new kit spend.

Keep asking, we are all happy to help. David.

 

 

1 hour ago, happy-kat said:

Perhaps for visuall the bundle of a 150p on an altaz4 might work for you and if that's the 150pds then you've the OTA for a heq5 at a later date maybe.

 

1 hour ago, Rob said:

Not suggesting any particular here. But I'm going to provide combinations I have/had have and what sits well with what!

SW150PDS - EQ5

SW200PDS - HEQ5

ED80 - EQ5 or HEQ5 alike

I have used several dobs and enjoyed them its fair to say. I am an EQ man in the main. The SW150PDS on the EQ5 is great setup & easy to manage. Remember its focal length is shorter, so for wide field its a beauty. It can do planets  mind you with a decent Barlow. The 200PDS is a great scope, if EQ or Dob mounted. A nice step up from the 130P.. for visual it sits OK on the EQ5 (some shakes hence the match to a HEQ5). The ED80 is rock solid on a EQ5.. Optics crisp for visual, mags can be pushed on a good night, so good on Planets.. though aperture will win. However rewarding on most nights.. the moon is a joy!.

Well.. thats my summing up for now. The others sure have made good points. Take your time on deciding.. research LOTS!.. its free, and will pay you back in spades. Try and take a look through what you can at clubs & open evenings (after COVID-19).

Best Rob 

Thank you fellas, some very good advice there. I won't discount the dob, it clearly is the best for a low budget. I'd go the the 250 for the sake of the extra £100 fro the extra real estate that would give. I can see many of the advantages if I can get around the use. A bit like Rob though, I actually quite like the EQ system for whatever reason, not that that's the most important aspect.

Question around the SW Dobs, can you add a tracking Synscan system at a later date if I felt the need? I see that you can buy them integrated, but not separate? Not cost-effective to retro-fit maybe? Would the flex tube version offer much in the way of better storage, do the collapse better in a box? 

[johninderby]

4 hours ago, Stardaze said:

Ah, my apologies, I see. My concern with a dob is the moving of it and uneven ground. Both the spots at home I favour aren't very level. Maybe I'll look into a diy fix as these do offer the best bang for money there is. 

The SW 200p is a good basic dob but there other choices. The SW dob has been around for ages and been a well deserved favourite but things have moved on a bit and there now are other choices depending on your budget.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes/skywatcher-skyliner-200p-dobsonian.html

The Bresser dob is aboit £100.00 more but you getting a lot more than £100.00 worth of improvements including a great focuser, proper alt bearings, 6 point mirror cell etc. etc. and being mounted using tube rings can be moved up or down for balance or the tube can be rotated so the eyepiece is in the most comfortable position. Great fit and finish.

Being mounted on tube rings means you can simply remove the alt bearings and screw on a dovetail bar and fit it to an EQ mount so gives you more options.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bresser-telescopes/bresser-messier-8-dobsonian-telescope.html

Edited April 14, 2020 by johninderby

[Stardaze]

2 minutes ago, johninderby said:

The SW 200p is a good basic dob but there other choices. The SW dob has been around for ages and been a well deserved favourite but things have moved on a bit and there now are other choices depending on your budget.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes/skywatcher-skyliner-200p-dobsonian.html

The Bresser dob is aboit £100.00 more but you getting a lot more than £100.00 worth of improvements including a great focuser, proper alt bearings, 6 point mirror cell etc. etc. and being mounted using tube rings can be moved up or down for balance or the tube can be rotated so the eyepiece is in the most comfortable position. Great fit and finish.

Being mounted on tube rings means you can simply remove the alt bearings and screw on a dovetail bar and fit it to an EQ mount so gives you more options.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bresser-telescopes/bresser-messier-8-dobsonian-telescope.html

Ah yes, I had seen this one being very well regarded in a review.

Just been looking at the SW flex tube and they do collapse quite nicely for storage. Understand some of the pitfalls with them, but they too have an upgraded focusing unit which seems to be the weakness of the original versions. 

[johninderby]

Definately prefer the Bresser over the solid tube SW dobs.

The focuser on the flextube dob is nowhere near the quality of the Bresser focuser though but yes better than the focuser on the regular SW

For me it would be a choice between the Bresser and the flextube but one thing most fail to realise the flextube is heavier than a solid tube as the collapsing mechanism is heavier than the equivelant length of solid tube. 

Edited April 14, 2020 by johninderby

[Stardaze]

15 minutes ago, johninderby said:

Definately prefer the Bresser over the solid tube SW dobs.

The focuser on the flextube dob is nowhere near the quality of the Bresser focuser though but yes far better than the focuser on the regular SW

For me it would be a choice between the Bresser and the flextube but one thing most fail to realise the flextube is heavier than a solid tube as the collapsing mechanism is heavier than the equivelant length of solid tube. 

Just looking at the 250 weights:

SW: OTA 19kg, Box 25kg = 44kg

Bresser: OTA 11.5kg, Box 16.4kg = 27.9kg

The SW is 63% heavier = Wow!

Quite a difference. What I potentially could gain in slightly reduced storage room, I'll lose out to with a slipped disc. I'll look at that storage! There's a tenner difference between them and the best focuser and bearings means a big thing. One review of the 250 SW flex tube suggested the alt bearings weren't great.

[johninderby]

Love my 10” Bresser. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

The big alt bearings make great carry handles and you just drop the OTA onto the base and you are ready to go. Nothing to screw in or mess about with.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by johninderby

[John]

13 minutes ago, Stardaze said:

Just looking at the 250 weights:

SW: OTA 19kg, Box 25kg = 44kg

Bresser: OTA 11.5kg, Box 16.4kg = 27.9kg

The SW is 63% heavier = Wow!

Quite a difference. What I potentially could gain in slightly reduced storage room, I'll lose out to with a slipped disc. I'll look at that storage! There's a tenner difference between them and the best focuser and bearings means a big thing. One review of the 250 SW flex tube suggested the alt bearings weren't great.

Not sure about the total weight of the Skywatcher you have there. I've seen figures of 25kg and 27kg for the Skyliner 250PX solid tube. I used to own one and I don't think it was that heavy

My old Meade Lightbridge 12 inch dob weighed around 40 kg all up - that one was a beast !

 

 

[Stardaze]

24 minutes ago, johninderby said:

Love my 10” Bresser. 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

The big alt bearings make great carry handles and you just drop the OTA onto the base and you are ready to go. Nothing to screw in or mess about with.

 

I think that looks just the job John and will give me plenty of ‘scope’ for along time to find my way around. What EP’s have you coupled the with?

[johninderby]

13 minutes ago, Stardaze said:

I think that looks just the job John and will give me plenty of ‘scope’ for along time to find my way around. What EP’s have you coupled the with?

I really like the Nirvana eyepieces. Very nearly as good as a Nagler in an f/5 dob and an absolute bargain at that price. 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/ovl-eyepieces/ovl-nirvana-es-uwa-82-ultrawide-eyepieces.html

I use the 7mm and 16 mm a lot and for lunar viewing the Nagler 3-6 zoom is really nice but £££££££. The Nirvana 4mm would be a fine high power eyepiece though. A cheaper alternaive would be the BST Starguiders.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/search/for/starguider/

Better be sitting down when you see thevprice of a Nagler zoom. 🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/tele-vue-eyepieces/tele-vue-3-6mm-nagler-50-degree-zoom-eyepiece.html

[johninderby]

Two other things to budget for would be a Skywatcher 9x50 right angle errect image finder and the dual speed unit for the focuser. For the finder you’ll need a Synta type SCT finder shoe to replace the Bresser finder shoe.

[John]

46 minutes ago, Stardaze said:

... What EP’s have you coupled the with?

I notice that you have the 18mm and 8mm BST Starguiders arriving shortly ?

These will work pretty well with a 250mm F/5 dobsonian.

 

[Stardaze]

41 minutes ago, johninderby said:

I really like the Nirvana eyepieces. Very nearly as good as a Nagler in an f/5 dob and an absolute bargain at that price. 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/ovl-eyepieces/ovl-nirvana-es-uwa-82-ultrawide-eyepieces.html

I use the 7mm and 16 mm a lot and for lunar viewing the Nagler 3-6 zoom is really nice but £££££££. The Nirvana 4mm would be a fine high power eyepiece though. A cheaper alternaive would be the BST Starguiders.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/search/for/starguider/

Better be sitting down when you see thevprice of a Nagler zoom. 🙀🙀🙀🙀🙀

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/tele-vue-eyepieces/tele-vue-3-6mm-nagler-50-degree-zoom-eyepiece.html

Nice. I’m still waiting on the two BST’s I ordered 10 days ago, was hoping they’d be here today. I’m going to need a good standard EP, in the 25 area and good Barlow too. 

How’s the finder scope the Bresser is bundled with? Guess I’ll need a dew  shield too but that should be about it to get going.
 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Stardaze

[Stardaze]

28 minutes ago, johninderby said:

Two other things to budget for would be a Skywatcher 9x50 right angle errect image finder and the dual speed unit for the focuser. For the finder you’ll need a Synta type SCT finder shoe to replace the Bresser finder shoe.

Ah, replied without refreshing 👍

[johninderby]

The stock finder isn’t bad actually and quite usable except it is straight though and a right angle one is just much easier to use. Never bothered with a dew shield, just didn’t need one. Some fit a dew shield if they have bright lights and need a bit extra shielding to stop light shining into the tube. 

The Bresser finder shoe is the same as a Meade one which is why I replaced mine with a standard Synta type whicth most brands of scope use.

Edited April 14, 2020 by johninderby

[Stardaze]

40 minutes ago, johninderby said:

The stock finder isn’t bad actually and quite usable except it is straight though and a right angle one is just much easier to use. Never bothered with a dew shield, just didn’t need one. Some fit a dew shield if they have bright lights and need a bit extra shielding to stop light shining into the tube. 

The Bresser finder shoe is the same as a Meade one which is why I replaced mine with a standard Synta type whicth most brands of scope use.

This bracket John? https://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/skywatcher-finderscope-mounting-base.html

What dual speed unit for the focuser would you recommend?

Edited April 14, 2020 by Stardaze

[johninderby]

The Bresser finder shoe has wider spaced holes than the Skywatcher finder shoe so you would need to drill one new mounting hole to fit the Skywatcher shoe or get a shoe like this that allows for wider hole spacing.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/baader-universal-quick-release-finder-shoe-base.html

The 1/10 focuser upgade is the one from Bresser for this focuser.

https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/bresser-messier-1-10-gear.html#SID=1690

And this finder is ideal.

https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/skywatcher-9x50-right-angled-erect-image-finder--bracket.html#SID=22

Edited April 14, 2020 by johninderby

[Stardaze]

36 minutes ago, johninderby said:

The Bresser finder shoe has wider spaced holes than the Skywatcher finder shoe so you would need to drill one new mounting hole to fit the Skywatcher shoe or get a shoe like this that allows for wider hole spacing.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/baader-universal-quick-release-finder-shoe-base.html

The 1/10 focuser upgade is the one from Bresser for this focuser.

https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/bresser-messier-1-10-gear.html#SID=1690

And this finder is ideal.

https://www.harrisontelescopes.co.uk/acatalog/skywatcher-9x50-right-angled-erect-image-finder--bracket.html#SID=22

Probably a good job everything is closed right now, huh. All makes sense though so thanks. Looks like you've drilled the hole on yours for the SW version?

Edited April 14, 2020 by Stardaze