New telescope advice.

[MimasDeathStar]

Hello everyone

I'm really sorry about this - I'm sure you've read posts like these a million times before!

I was just about to buy a small skymax 90 maksutov on an EQ1 mount then a couple of people mentioned some things about EQ1 mounts being a bit wobbly and a bit tricky to use; and Maksutov's being quite difficult to drive around because of their narrow field of view and I might be happier with an Alt Az. So I decided not to get it.

I'm really looking for something super compact and relatively idiot proof. I don't have a terrible budget - about £250 to £300, and I really like the look of all of these 60-80mm refractors that look like they'd be really easy to use. But alot of them seem as if they're for astrophotography? I'm nowhere near technically minded enough to ever get into astrophotography so I'm never really going to use these features. So am I looking at the wrong sort of thing? And the price variations are quite amazing when you compare something like a Skywatcher ST80 with a Skywatcher ED80! I don't really understand the difference I think.

I don't think I want a reflector as I'm not confident I have the patience to collimate (is that right) the scope and it seems that it really seems to fox some people. Similarly I don't think I'd be very good with Goto. Also I go camping and caravanning alot so I'd love to have something to take with me but it has to be relatively bomb proof and quick to set up.

I'm not sure what I want to look at - a bit of everything I suppose. I'm a terrible one's for lists and box ticking and people have mentioned the messier list and the caldwell list and the Herschel 400 and the lunar 100 -  and at the moment, the idea of zooming around ticking boxes seems right up my street (really sorry if that offends anyone!).

I like the planets but I've seen Jupiter and Saturn through quite big telescopes before. Would I want to go back night after night. I'm not sure... I'm led to believe that probably isn't a massive issue for the next year or so because of where they are anyway so I can always come back to that. I do think I'll buy a solar filter though the sun looks like alot of fun, so does the moon.

Sorry for the ramble, if anyone knows what I'm trying to ask feel free to tell me!

[kev100]

Hi there. I agree that a Mak and EQ1  wouldn't really be ideal due to wobbliness and field of view. So, what about something like the SKywatcher Startravel? I'd also recommend an Alt/Az over an EQ any day.

Kev

[Cosmic Geoff]

It's really a personal choice bearing in mind your budget.  Maybe read up more on the various types of telescope. For instance, small refractors range from inexpensive long-focus achromats for general use and inexpensive short-focus achromats intended for wide-field viewing, to expensive ED and apochromatic small telescopes designed for astrophotography.

Collimating a Newtonian telescope may be challenging if you have never handled anything more tech-y than a smartphone - it's not hard if you are used to tinkering with things.

Be aware that entry-level telescopes have entry-level mounts - generally lightweight and a bit wobbly.  But if you want it portable...

You don't have to buy the scope and mount together.  But a decent non-wobbly mount could consume most or even all of your budget.

[Thor92]

I'm inexperienced at this but have just gone trough a similar process to find my scope . As above It's really a personal choice. Do lots of research, youtube is a great place to start and this forum is an absolute treasure trove of information. 100% read up more on the various types of telescope. and decide if your going to use it at some point for astrophoyography as you'll want one that's designed for astrophotography.
Have a read through my threads made over the last few days on here they should help. My budget was somewhat larger than yours but I was after a larger scope and a EQ5 mount, small budget means nothing really if you use it correctly. I came across some absolute fantastic deals whilst I was searching around. Theres a 130mm reflector on a go to mount on Ebay for £280. I mean it doesn't get much better than that for what your after by the sounds of it. If theres a 130mm out there for that you can bet you'll find a smallish refractor for that aswell

I know its not much but hopefully that helps and saves you a bit of time, as someone who is new also I know it can be a tad overwhelming with all the options. Just remember your money, your choice. Its quite a personal decision to make as it needs to be right for your needs and surroundings

J

Edited September 10, 2019 by Thor92

[Rob Sellent]

@MimasDeathStarthere is absolutely no reason to apologise when seeting up threads like this. It's what makes SGL such a nice place to be. Good questions and good replies. Anyway, with a budget of around £300 my preference would be this.

The Dob will offer you 8" of aperture and so in terms of resolution should resolve detail more than any other scope within this price range - and pricier! It will give you low-power rich field viewing and it won't have what some consider unpleasing narrow-field views a la Mak. It is very good on general deep sky observing and with reasonable dark skies you'll be able to view galaxies, nebulae, globulars, and so on. It will train you in the relatively simple art of collimation which will stand you in good stead if you ever fancied a Mak or SCT.

You will get more than sufficient magnifications on objects (limited like all the other scopes on atmospheric conditions, seeing and aperture), it already comes with a good solid mount so you don't have to buy one, or be worried about wobbles at high magnifications. Like a refractor it isn't susceptible to dew formation, so techniques such as dew shields and heater strips become unnecessary as they would necessaily be for Maks and SCTS, but unlike an achromatic refractor you will have significantly more aperture and no chromatic aberration. Furthemore, it won't take as long to cooldown as a Mak or SCT and although perhaps not quite as sharp as a achromatic refractor or Mak, on most nights it should give really nice contrasty views on planets. If this weren't enough inch for inch it's also the cheapest option and fits right in your price range 😀. 

There are a couple of downsides to the Dob. Some folk find collimation annoying but to be honest, it's really no more than a little tweak of the mirror every session. Some folk don't like diffraction spikes when viewing bright objects like planets and with a focal ratio of f5 these scopes are more demanding on eyepieces, so you will probably have to spend a bit more on quality eyepieces than you would if you had a longer +f10 scope and you will have less exit pupil for any given eyepiece. However, 1mm exit pupil is still comfortable to view with and even this will give you 200x which is more than enough on most objects.

Inch for inch, then, Dobs are a lot cheaper than Refractors, Maks or SCTS and because you can afford more aperture for less, you're getting more resolution, brighter images, and the possibility of going deeper and seeing more.

For a first time, all round, general purpose scope to help you enjoy the wonders of the night sky, I really don't think you can go wrong with an 8" Dob.

Hope that helps a little

Edited September 10, 2019 by Rob Sellent

[teoria_del_big_bang]

Hi,

I am a relative novice only buying my first scope around 2 years ago. So There are many others on this forum far better than myself that can give advice. But your questions are certainly not out of place on here and there will be many that are more than willing to help you.

Maybe what I can give you is my experience I have gained in a short time and what I have learned is very much down to this forum.

As mentioned already you are doing exactly the correct thing in asking these questions. I am sure many buy the wrong kit to begin with and regret it very quickly which is a shame as often I would think that could put you right off what is a terrific hobby (and it is a hobby for some but I think can become much more for many).

I too started looking at various ready made setups, some on Amazon, Ebay and so on and after much advice and a lot of reading other articles in books and in line I bought a Dobsonian exactly as recommended by @Rob Sellent. And despite now having 4 scopes I still have this Dobsonian and still use it. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

They are so easy to use and give fantastic views, they have such a big aperture you are getting a lot of light through to your eyes and so you can see very feint objects , clouds permitting of course. These often come up 2nd hand and I think I bought mine for £180.  But even new full price they are a bargain. I have been told they would usually arrive ready to use straight out of the box without collimation but with a small columating tool they are very easy to collimate and would probably benefit from re collimating anyway and will need checking from time to time.

cheshire collimating eyepiece

For the sort of money you are talking I would go for one of these any day. If you manage to get one 2nd hand then you could spend the extra on a decent eyepiece or two as well as the ones supplied work fine but not the best quality.

And despite saying Astrophotography is not on your to-do list I bet at some stage you end up getting a mobile phone holder that attaches to eyepiece to take a picture or two. You can get some decent pictures of the moon this way on this scope for sure.

These are not goto scopes, and for the budget you are not going to get anything half decent like this anyway, but in my opinion this manual approach is better for learning (but many will have other opinions which are also valid) but my thoughts were how much more you learn about where these objects are in the sky at a particular time of year because you point it there yourself rather than pressing a button to get there.

Steve

 

Edit: I might be wrong about not needing collimation when new. As I said mine was 2nd hand and when I picked it up it already had been colimated. But the tool is easy to use and not expensive.

Edited September 10, 2019 by teoria_del_big_bang

[MimasDeathStar]

Thanks all thats really interesting advice. I hadn't considered a dobsonian at all because of their size and heft but it looks like they are so good that I'd better start considering one. Are they tough enough to be ferried around in a van?

What is looking through one like - I mean ergonomically? Do you have to stand or crouch or bend much? Or can you still use it sitting down?

Edit: will it work for solar? Do they make solar filters that big?

Edited September 10, 2019 by MimasDeathStar

[MimasDeathStar]

4 hours ago, kev100 said:

So, what about something like the SKywatcher Startravel?

You see - that is exactly the sort of thing I have in my head when I think "telescope". Maybe I'm being naive!

[teoria_del_big_bang]

8 minutes ago, MimasDeathStar said:

. Are they tough enough to be ferried around in a van?

What is looking through one like - I mean ergonomically? Do you have to stand or crouch or bend much? Or can you still use it sitting down?

They are large and bulky but surprisingly light for the size.

Whilst I would not label them as a grab and go scope they can me transported in a car so van would be no problem, but I wouldntt want to go too far from the van with it and the ground needs to be fairly flat.

Regarding the ergonomics I have a bad back and bad knees (would have been shot years ago If I was a horse 🙂 ) but did't find it too bad even on some very cold nights.  Always viewed sat down apart from standing up to rotate the scope maybe to approximate area, otherwise just kept shuffling around on my chair as I rotated the scope, but this would happen on most scopes even much smaller ones I would guess. Height wise the eyepiece does not move too much from pointing almost to pole star to the horizon, so I managed to stay seated when moving just in up and down plane.

 

[teoria_del_big_bang]

14 minutes ago, MimasDeathStar said:

You see - that is exactly the sort of thing I have in my head when I think "telescope". Maybe I'm being naive!

I can't say too much as I have no experience of them but from what I have read I guess these would be a fine starter scope.  Maybe best to get somebodies opinion that has used one or is more experienced. For slightly more than your original budget you can get it with a goto mount. Not sure how much more sturdy this is than the EQ1 but some reasonable reviews about it. The scope & mount seem a fair bargain at that price.

sky-watcher-startravel-102

 

Steve

[DaveL59]

Depending on how quickly you want to acquire it, I found ebay was a great source, all of my scopes were purchased that way, there's also local ads like gumtree and sometimes even the bigger charity shops as alternates to trad optics retailers, tho you won't have any guarantees or help figuring things out. Buying used over the internet is a risk of course, will it be as good as described, undamaged optics/mirrors etc but I've been lucky in that regard and was prepared to do any refurb in the future if needed. I was fortunate enough to buy a TAL100RS this way, with finder, diagonal and eyepieces on an EQ5 mount for around your budget, a lovely refractor, tho it is pretty long (1 Meter) and with the EQ5 mount very heavy at 23+KG. Its a lovely scope to use and I've since added synscan goto to the EQ5 for my convenience and a possible play with some photography down the road. A tracking mount does make for more relaxed viewing once you're on target.

Alongside the 100RS I've some reflectors (Tal-M, Tal-1 and skywatcher 130) that also give nice views and have been simple to collimate. Do beware tho if you find a Tal 1 or 2 reflector to check that it has the later 1.25 inch focuser and eyepieces as the older model (pre 1996 I think) uses 32mm and can be problematic with modern 31.7mm eyepieces unless you modify the mirror position as I and others have done. The Tal-M you either mod the mirror and lose the in-built finder, or settle for the eyepiece range that comes with it (25mm and 15mm + barlow) to have both useable. I do like the pier mounts the Tal-1,2 and M come with tho, less ground spread than a tripod and very stable.

Occasionally a nice vintage refractor can pop up, the Prinz 660 or vixen for example and if lucky in your budget too. These also tend to be quite long and some older refractors may use the smaller 0.96-inch eyepieces that are hard to get quality versions of these days so worth confirming before you buy.

Does sound like you need to decide on what portability limits you are prepared to handle tho, lugging a large unit around may not suit when out camping etc...

 

Oh - should add, best to collect if you can when buying used rather than courier shipping, be a shame for precious optics to be damaged in transit, especially vintage where repair parts may be very hard to source

Edited September 10, 2019 by DaveL59

[kev100]

Hi there,

As @Cosmic Geoff stated above, choosing a telescope is a very personal choice, there's no such thing as 'one size fits all'. I guess the best advice would be to try a few before you buy. Can I ask where you're located? Are there any clubs/societies/SGL members/public stargazing sessions nearby? Can you get along to a star party so you can actually try out a few scopes (and the next minefield in the hobby, eyepieces)?

Kev

[johninderby]

Have you read this?

http://www.astro-baby.com/articles/beginners guide to buying a telescope/so you want to buy a telescope.htm

[Raph-in-the-sky]

13 hours ago, MimasDeathStar said:

Thanks all thats really interesting advice. I hadn't considered a dobsonian at all because of their size and heft but it looks like they are so good that I'd better start considering one. Are they tough enough to be ferried around in a van?

What is looking through one like - I mean ergonomically? Do you have to stand or crouch or bend much? Or can you still use it sitting down?

Edit: will it work for solar? Do they make solar filters that big?

I easily fit my 10' Dob in my car which is on the smaller side so no problem to fit that in a van. Those dobs are solid enough not to be damaged during transportation as long as you manage to fix them (I put my dob on the backseat of the car with seatbelts and it works fine). If the road is bumpy, you ll have to collimate which isn't a big deal once you get used to it. 

Regarding viewing position I find that having an ajustable seat is great. You can get something designed for astronomy like this https://www.firstlightoptics.com/astronomy-observing-chairs/sky-watcher-anti-tip-observing-chair.html.

Or you can be cheap like me and get one designed for ironing! https://www.befr.ebay.be/itm/Leifheit-multisitz-Niveau-Seat-Assistance-Standing-Ironing-Chair-Aid-Chrome/113729433696?hash=item1a7acd7060:g:j3MAAOSw4~1ck8~o  that's the one I bought... you can probably find it for around 25 GBP

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

Look for a used Sky-Watcher Skyliner 150P or 200P on Ebay. There's usually several. Simple to use, not massively heavy to move around a garden in one piece. They can be stored upright in a corner or transported in a car.

Collimation using a laser collimator is easy. Views are great. Well within ypur budget.  Sold yet? 😉

[MimasDeathStar]

Wow thanks everyone for the replies and the advice its much appreciated.

I've had the time to do much more research though and I'm really sorry but I don't think the 200p is the right scope for me. Its not that I don't believe anyone its just that there are one or two hurdles that I don't think I could overcome with a 200p (but thanks for all the advice I really wish I could say it was the perfect scope for me) I totally understand if you think "why ask advice if you're just going to ignore it?". But the issues in my head are:

• Having looked at some pictures I think it may take up quite a large place in the house and I'm not sure I have anywhere unobtrusive to store it.
• I could probably fit the DOB itself somewhere in my van, but I don't think the base is a great shape for storage. We go away alot and space is already at a premium in the van I'm not sure it would go down to well if I tried to add something the size of another child into the mix.
• I'm worried it would get muddy or damaged as we go away alot, also I worry it would get bashed about a fair bit trying to squeeze it in around a van with four other people and all their camping supplies in it.
• Because of all this I really think I need something smaller, that I can store in a box or case or something, and that sits off the ground a bit more.

I think when I consider all these things then they add up to a fairly insurmountable mountain of obstacles. Having said that, I think if I get to grips with astronomy this will certainly be a scope to think about in the future so your advice has not been wasted.

So I've probably committed a massive sin and actually gone and ordered a scope today and am going to ask you all what you think; safe in the knowledge that if you all tell me its a total lemon then there's nothing I can do about it! But I don't think its a lemon, it seems quite nice and looks like it is small enough to put in the van but good enough to see some cool stuff. I've already got a heavy duty tripod with fluid head to start with but I'll think about my next move (better tripod) if I have fun with the scope. I've already got a diagonal and a couple of eyepieces that I bought in anticipation of getting a scope a few years ago but they're only cheap ones.

Its this scope here:

http://www.opticstar.com/Run/Astronomy/Astro-Telescopes-Opticstar.asp?p=0_10_1_1_54

 

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi @MimasDeathStar,  apologies for being late for the party, but have or had you considered this? ---> https://www.firstlightoptics.com/heritage/skywatcher-heritage-130p-flextube.html

[DaveL59]

no experience of it but it does look a nice scope (the opticron), I take it that comes with diagonal and eyepieces, finder etc?

Only thing I'd say on the tripod/fluid head, you may find it a drag to try tracking objects as they move across field of view as it won't have any fine-motion features that an astro tripod would have. At 3KG plus the finder, diagonal etc you may struggle to hold aim unless you tighten the head damping which would them make small movements more jerky, plus if aiming at or near azimouth as there won't be any counterweight to balance the scope. Could be worth trying to obtain a reasonably portable astro tripod+mount to make using the scope easier and not frustrating. Alt-Az or Eq would be down to your personal preference. EQ with an R/A motor would enable the scope to follow objects which may make life easier if sharing the view with family/friends, tho Alt-Az can seem easier at first.

 

[MimasDeathStar]

48 minutes ago, Philip R said:

but have or had you considered this?

Thanks Philip - yes I had considered that one - it even made it as far as the short list! I don't know I think I'd talked myself into getting a refractor at that point and when people started talking about the 200p then I think I'd talked myself into it being "200p or nothing!" if you know what I mean!

33 minutes ago, DaveL59 said:

no experience of it but it does look a nice scope (the opticron), I take it that comes with diagonal and eyepieces, finder etc?

Hi Dave - no it doesn't come with any of those things but I have a diagonal and eyepieces already that I inherited from a friend a couple of years ago when I was thinking about taking the plunge then. Thanks for your point about the telescope weight. Is 3kg heavy for a telescope? I thought it was quite light but maybe thats just because I was comparing it to the big dobsonians. I'll see how I go with the tripod - you probably know way more than me about these things. I can always buy a suitable one in a couple of months if this one doesn't work out I guess (and from what you say I might need to!)

Edited September 11, 2019 by MimasDeathStar

[DaveL59]

26 minutes ago, MimasDeathStar said:

 

Hi Dave - no it doesn't come with any of those things but I have a diagonal and eyepieces already that I inherited from a friend a couple of years ago when I was thinking about taking the plunge then. Thanks for your point about the telescope weight. Is 3kg heavy for a telescope? I thought it was quite light but maybe thats just because I was comparing it to the big dobsonians. I'll see how I go with the tripod - you probably know way more than me about these things. I can always buy a suitable one in a couple of months if this one doesn't work out I guess (and from what you say I might need to!)

I think it'll depend a lot on your tripod and its spec, if it was for heavier video camera use it may well be fine. 3KG isn't so much heavy for a scope,  my TAL100RS is a lot heavier and longer. I was more thinking that as the load increases, to get the fluid head to stay put you need to tighten the clutches which will make very small fine adjustments in alt and Az less smooth and you end up overshooting the target. Can get frustrating to zig and zag trying to relocate and you only get a short viewing window before needing to readjust. Balancing will be more of a challenge too as you effectively have an offset load when you crank the scope to point upward, tho you can always hang a weight under the scope to help there. Only way to know is give it a go and decide from there  

[MimasDeathStar]

12 hours ago, johninderby said:

Have you read this?

http://www.astro-baby.com/articles/beginners guide to buying a telescope/so you want to buy a telescope.htm

Yes that was super useful thankyou!

[Alan64]

2 hours ago, MimasDeathStar said:

Wow thanks everyone for the replies and the advice its much appreciated.

I've had the time to do much more research though and I'm really sorry but I don't think the 200p is the right scope for me. Its not that I don't believe anyone its just that there are one or two hurdles that I don't think I could overcome with a 200p (but thanks for all the advice I really wish I could say it was the perfect scope for me) I totally understand if you think "why ask advice if you're just going to ignore it?". But the issues in my head are:

• Having looked at some pictures I think it may take up quite a large place in the house and I'm not sure I have anywhere unobtrusive to store it.
• I could probably fit the DOB itself somewhere in my van, but I don't think the base is a great shape for storage. We go away alot and space is already at a premium in the van I'm not sure it would go down to well if I tried to add something the size of another child into the mix.
• I'm worried it would get muddy or damaged as we go away alot, also I worry it would get bashed about a fair bit trying to squeeze it in around a van with four other people and all their camping supplies in it.
• Because of all this I really think I need something smaller, that I can store in a box or case or something, and that sits off the ground a bit more.

I think when I consider all these things then they add up to a fairly insurmountable mountain of obstacles. Having said that, I think if I get to grips with astronomy this will certainly be a scope to think about in the future so your advice has not been wasted.

So I've probably committed a massive sin and actually gone and ordered a scope today and am going to ask you all what you think; safe in the knowledge that if you all tell me its a total lemon then there's nothing I can do about it! But I don't think its a lemon, it seems quite nice and looks like it is small enough to put in the van but good enough to see some cool stuff. I've already got a heavy duty tripod with fluid head to start with but I'll think about my next move (better tripod) if I have fun with the scope. I've already got a diagonal and a couple of eyepieces that I bought in anticipation of getting a scope a few years ago but they're only cheap ones.

Its this scope here:

http://www.opticstar.com/Run/Astronomy/Astro-Telescopes-Opticstar.asp?p=0_10_1_1_54

 

Perhaps your concerns will be allayed here...

https://stargazerslounge.com/topic/327029-opticstar-80mm-f75-achromat-refractor-review/

That seems to be a telescope you'll always keep, and to enjoy.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

Yep, that review almost had me pulling the trigger on the Opticstar 80mm/90mm when I was looking for a first achro, but I went for the Startravel 120.

I'm sure it will make a great first scope and when aperture fever hits, a great second grab and go setup!

[ollypenrice]

I'll go back and answer your question about the differences between cheap and expensive refractors. Essentially the camera is far more demanding than they eye and stars are very demanding subjects photographically, so photography really requires very high order colour correction and freedom from mechanical problems like tilt, while for visual observing these are luxuries rather than essentials. The brain will work round imperfections whereas the camera just records the lot!

The basic Skywatcher short tube (ST series) refractors would meet your needs but they require a traditional mount (head and tripod) of reasonable stability and these eat up lots of budget.

If you go for a Dobsonian reflector you get the benefit of a mount which is at once incredibly cheap and incredibly good, but you'll need to learn to collimate. You'll also get a lot more aperture to see deeper.

Here's a list of UK astronomical societies (if you're UK based) where you might be able to see and try a range of scopes. http://fedastro.org.uk/fas/members/members-a-z/

Olly

Edited September 12, 2019 by ollypenrice

[johninderby]

Could be a good idea to get something like a Bresser 8” dob. A very well specced dob with proper alt bearings etc. But as it uses tube rings easy to remove the alt bearings and bolt on a dovetail bar so it could be mounted on an EQ mount kater on. 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/bresser-telescopes/bresser-messier-8-dobsonian-telescope.html

Edited September 12, 2019 by johninderby