Still not understanding this 071 Camera

[alan potts]

I don't know what this is meant to produce but I would have thought it would be better than this.

It is set on Unity Gain which I see is 90, of  what I have no idea.  This setting make it very difficult to preview to see anything even when binned and after 3 minutes exposure, which at least is now working, there is very little at all. In fact so little my Canon gave a better result in 10 seconds, clearly something is not right somewhere. I was of the opinion these were more sensitive and gave brighter results more quickly, at this rate it will need exposures of 10-15 minutes, it is that poor. After said exposure it hardly showed M22 which is a bright cluster Mag 5.3 I think, after 2 minutes with the Canon it jumps out at you andd this is about 10 years old.

Any ideas, I'm really fed and wish I had not bothered buying it at all. 4 nights lost now and not an image worth saving.

Alan

[Laurin Dave]

Hi Alan..  id guess theres some way of adjusting the histogram stretch in APT so you can see the image.. not familiar with APT but hopefully someone will be able to advise.   Maybe capture an image and use your processing software to check there’s something there..

edit..  just had a look at the APT manual and there a ccd/CMOs mode that needs to be used ..  there’s also a dslr mode which I guess you’ve been using .. I just googled APT Histogram ..  hope that sorts it 

Dave

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Laurin Dave

[JamesF]

I struggled to get APT to play nicely with one of my ZWO cameras.  I wonder if a change of software might help, at least in terms of proving to yourself that it does actually work.  Unfortunately I don't really know what to suggest other than perhaps Sharpcap, as I'm pretty much giving up on Windows for astronomy.

James

[AKB]

54 minutes ago, alan potts said:

It is set on Unity Gain which I see is 90, of  what I have no idea.

Units of one-tenth of a decibel, unless I’m very much mistaken.

[JamesF]

Might also be worth tinkering with it during the day to see if you can get an image from it, Alan.  At least that way you're not wasting the hours of darkness fighting hardware and/or software.

James

[Allinthehead]

Hi Alan. Sorry to hear that you're struggling with your new camera. Why don't you upload the sub here and i'll have a look for you. Keep the faith as it's a great camera and something i've learned over the last few years is that any problems are usually  my own fault and almost always something simple. 

[david_taurus83]

If you've only used a DSLR with APT, the histogram box is a little different. With a mono cam it displays a box with Autostretch L and Autostretch R. If it does, click on one of those buttons. I guarantee you've captured data but you need to apply a stretch to the preview to display it.

[alan potts]

16 hours ago, Allinthehead said:

Hi Alan. Sorry to hear that you're struggling with your new camera. Why don't you upload the sub here and i'll have a look for you. Keep the faith as it's a great camera and something i've learned over the last few years is that any problems are usually  my own fault and almost always something simple. 

I am sure it is my fault, when you know nothing it is so easy to make mistakes, I am not totally sure it was even pointing at M22 as the picture were so bad I don't even know if I sync'ed it correctly as point is awful and that is another thing I can't get to the bottom of. 

Alan

 

16 hours ago, Allinthehead said:

Hi Alan. Sorry to hear that you're struggling with your new camera. Why don't you upload the sub here and i'll have a look for you. Keep the faith as it's a great camera and something i've learned over the last few years is that any problems are usually  my own fault and almost always something simple. 

At the moment I am struggling with every aspect of AP, pointing is awful for some unknown reason which seems to get worse the better "software" tells me PA is (1 arc min check 10 times now), and that doesn't make much sense. The rig is more or less pointing towards Polaris, though it is not exactly where it should be, the telescope must not be parallel to the polar axis but I can't seem to improve this.  Images from the 071 through APT are so awful I can't really tell where it points other than I think it was Saturn but not totally sure, the scope seemed to be pointing at this.

What I may do is go back to my Canon on the main scope and put the 071 on the 70mmED which is mounted beside on a duel rig set-up then put the 071 on a separate laptop so I can see what I an getting in conjunction with something I understand, because for ease of use to a numpty like me a DSLR blows this camera out the water. After 4 nights though I am really fed up and don't have much desire to even bother.

Alan

17 hours ago, JamesF said:

I struggled to get APT to play nicely with one of my ZWO cameras.  I wonder if a change of software might help, at least in terms of proving to yourself that it does actually work.  Unfortunately I don't really know what to suggest other than perhaps Sharpcap, as I'm pretty much giving up on Windows for astronomy.

James

Hi James,

I have Sharpcap but I found that even more difficult to understand as it appeared to be tailored to Planetary imaging, however there were loads of controls to adjust. I stuck with APT basically because I thought I understood it, seems I again knew nothing, really off astronomy at the moment, I so dejected.

Alan

[gorann]

Do not give up yet Alan!

I do not think unity gain is the best setting. I run my ASI071 on gain 200, offset 30 and -15°C (lower temperatures does not help much according to the dark-current curve for this camera). I think I got the gain and offset from some thread (SGL or CN) but cannot remeber where (but I am sure I did not just guess). I use ASICAP (ASI's own capture program) to run the camera. Depending on target I expose between 2 and 10 min. I have made a library of master darks to match the gain, offset, temperature and exposure times (another reason to stick to the same settings except for a few different exposure times). I am quite pleased with the results so far - considerably better than my Canon 60Da. Here is an example (Esprit 150 on Mesu200, 42 x 5 min so 210 min):

[alan potts]

2 hours ago, gorann said:

Do not give up yet Alan!

I do not think unity gain is the best setting. I run my ASI071 on gain 200, offset 30 and -15°C (lower temperatures does not help much according to the dark-current curve for this camera). I think I got the gain and offset from some thread (SGL or CN) but cannot remeber where (but I am sure I did not just guess). I use ASICAP (ASI's own capture program) to run the camera. Depending on target I expose between 2 and 10 min. I have made a library of master darks to match the gain, offset, temperature and exposure times (another reason to stick to the same settings except for a few different exposure times). I am quite pleased with the results so far - considerably better than my Canon 60Da. Here is an example (Esprit 150 on Mesu200, 42 x 5 min so 210 min):

Thanks for the encouragement Goran but I really am fed up with it, it is just one problem after another, I guess when one is a useless as me I should expect nothing more. This Unity Gain at 90 is totally ridiculous, I tried to stretch the subs this morning from last night (6), there is nothing really there at 3 minutes x6, the canon would be superb at this even at 800iso. I will look for this ASIcap, sure I saw it somewhere. I can't run at minus 15 it's too hot here, I am at zero as evening temp is still 25c. My biggest problem is a lack of IT knowledge and I can't say with trying to improve it gets easier, PS I am OK as I have had it years. I have taken the camera off the rig until I get this dam pointing sorted out, it's mental, nothing is working that 4 weeks back ran like a dream.

Alan

[gorann]

2 hours ago, alan potts said:

Thanks for the encouragement Goran but I really am fed up with it, it is just one problem after another, I guess when one is a useless as me I should expect nothing more. This Unity Gain at 90 is totally ridiculous, I tried to stretch the subs this morning from last night (6), there is nothing really there at 3 minutes x6, the canon would be superb at this even at 800iso. I will look for this ASIcap, sure I saw it somewhere. I can't run at minus 15 it's too hot here, I am at zero as evening temp is still 25c. My biggest problem is a lack of IT knowledge and I can't say with trying to improve it gets easier, PS I am OK as I have had it years. I have taken the camera off the rig until I get this dam pointing sorted out, it's mental, nothing is working that 4 weeks back ran like a dream.

Alan

Just try the settings I suggested and the ASICAP program can be downloaded for free from the ZWO site. The camera is not necessary much more sensitive than you DSLR but much less noisy so you can stretch the image more for dim objects.

I am also useless at computers (especially Windows since I are normally 100% Mac) but the ASICAP was quite easy to get goingt and use. You find it here:

https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/software-drivers

[vlaiv]

Why not posting a single light sub so we can have a look what you are dealing with?

It might be that everything is fine and it is due to software that you are not seeing what you are expecting to see (different workflow to DSLR).

[Laurin Dave]

Alan

Another thought...  Given that you've changed the camera how close to focus are you..  maybe that's what you cant see anything. Have you got both the 16.5mm and 21mm spacers on the ASI071 to replicate the DSLR back focus?  (Assuming you haven't changed the focus from when it was ok with DSLR) 

Dave

 

 

[alan potts]

40 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Why not posting a single light sub so we can have a look what you are dealing with?

It might be that everything is fine and it is due to software that you are not seeing what you are expecting to see (different workflow to DSLR).

Thanks for the offer Vlaiv, there was nothing much to stretch as I have had it in PS this morning, it also was not pointing at what I thought it was. This is a worrying problem, the better my PA becomes according to software the worse it points in C-du-C, don't make any sense, it is also pretty much pointing at Polaris when parked. The image issue is one of gain, now I know how to alter this I can play, though I am not remotely impressed with this camera at the moment, other than I think it's pretty.

Alan

[alan potts]

34 minutes ago, Laurin Dave said:

Alan

Another thought...  Given that you've changed the camera how close to focus are you..  maybe that's what you cant see anything. Have you got both the 16.5mm and 21mm spacers on the ASI071 to replicate the DSLR back focus?  (Assuming you haven't changed the focus from when it was ok with DSLR) 

Dave

 

 

Dont worry Dave what little I had was at least sharp, it's gain is the issue, now I see how to change it. The sort of standard 90 setting is well down on the sider, I wonder if this is geared at Planetary, all the dam software seems to be, Sharpcap, even their own seems to point this way. When you open anything up and the first slide you lay eyes on is in Milli/sec's I don't thing DSO's springs to mind. Can be adjusted though, need to play a bit I think, just disappointed yet another thing described as EASY.

Alan

[vlaiv]

5 minutes ago, alan potts said:

Thanks for the offer Vlaiv, there was nothing much to stretch as I have had it in PS this morning, it also was not pointing at what I thought it was. This is a worrying problem, the better my PA becomes according to software the worse it points in C-du-C, don't make any sense, it is also pretty much pointing at Polaris when parked. The image issue is one of gain, now I know how to alter this I can play, though I am not remotely impressed with this camera at the moment, other than I think it's pretty.

Alan

There won't be much difference in going from unity gain to gain 200 in terms of quality of single captured sub. You will lower read noise from about 2.6e to about 2.25e while loosing some dynamic range (going from about 12.5 stops down to 11 stops).

Depending on your LP levels and duration of your exposure - this can have minimal effect on the resulting subs.

I think that most of your frustration with this camera comes from wrong workflow - one geared towards DSLR type camera. If you spend a little time adjusting your workflow, you'll will be much happier with your camera.

 

[alan potts]

LP is not an issue, I am as good as anyone for this, exposure I was using 3 minute, largely due to many saying they worked better with more but shorter exposures, Can you enlarge on change work flow, surely they still require stacking with darks etc and then stretching in PS or simialr program.

Alan

[pete_l]

I would suggest getting back to basics.

Take the camera off the telescope and see that you can actually get a light frame out of it. Cover it and make sure it goes dark.
After that, cover the sensor with a piece of foil held on by an elastic band. Use a pin to put a very small hole in the centre of the foil - you have now made a pinhole camera!
Try to get a coherent daylight image with that. You won't need a lens or telescope.
Once you have proved that the sensor is receiving and processing photons, put the camera back on the telescope. In daylight check you can get an image even if it is out of focus. Then cover the scope and make sure the image darkens.
Next step is to find a streetlight or the Moon and image that. Ensure that whatever finder you have is aligned with your target.
After that, aim for Jupiter - repeat as necessary.

By this point you will have built confidence that the camera does actually work. Even better! that it works with your telescope and that what you aim for is what you hit. You will also have got an idea of what gain / offset / exposure time settings are valid for starlight.

[alan potts]

20 minutes ago, pete_l said:

I would suggest getting back to basics.

Take the camera off the telescope and see that you can actually get a light frame out of it. Cover it and make sure it goes dark.
After that, cover the sensor with a piece of foil held on by an elastic band. Use a pin to put a very small hole in the centre of the foil - you have now made a pinhole camera!
Try to get a coherent daylight image with that. You won't need a lens or telescope.
Once you have proved that the sensor is receiving and processing photons, put the camera back on the telescope. In daylight check you can get an image even if it is out of focus. Then cover the scope and make sure the image darkens.
Next step is to find a streetlight or the Moon and image that. Ensure that whatever finder you have is aligned with your target.
After that, aim for Jupiter - repeat as necessary.

By this point you will have built confidence that the camera does actually work. Even better! that it works with your telescope and that what you aim for is what you hit. You will also have got an idea of what gain / offset / exposure time settings are valid for starlight.

Pete,

Firstly thank-you for taking the time to type this but I know the camera works. My issues appears to be with my expectations of how well it should work, some say I need to take a different approach to work flow but so far have not said what. Maybe I should expose longer, I have dark skies, but I was lead to believe these worked better with lots of shorter exposures as opposed to longer ones.

I am having problems with pointing the telescope, in so much as it doesn't want to point where C-du-C state it is, it is infact some way from this. PA according to software is very good. So pointing should follow suite. It is also point at Polaris when parked as close  but not perfect.

Went I take a preview image I cannot see it well enough, in fact all of the images are very dark but they are images nonetheless and sharp, just nowhere near as bright as an image from my Canon after the same 3 minutes .

All I basically require is someone to walk me through what settings are required.

Alan

[vlaiv]

1 hour ago, alan potts said:

Can you enlarge on change work flow, surely they still require stacking with darks etc and then stretching in PS or simialr program.

 

13 minutes ago, alan potts said:

Went I take a preview image I cannot see it well enough, in fact all of the images are very dark but they are images nonetheless and sharp, just nowhere near as bright as an image from my Canon after the same 3 minutes .

I was referring to this in fact. I have heard people having trouble using APT with dedicated astro cameras once they switch from DSLRs. I have no doubt that APT works good for DSLR type devices but those occasional complaints suggest that it's not geared towards usage with dedicated astro cameras.

It might be as simple as already pointed out by @Laurin Dave and @david_taurus83 - fact that auto stretch works differently with ASCOM than with DSLR in APT. If not properly auto stretched you will just see black sky with odd bright star here and there.

As for adjusting workflow - I would start by looking at maybe different capture software if you can't get APT to play ball with ASCOM based camera - there is a free software ("on the rise" - there is even a thread named like that) that has quite a lot features and people give favorable reviews of it - it's called NINA, and here is thread about it:

You can also give SGP lite a go as it is free (and limited) version?

[Dragon_Astro]

As said, could just need the autostretch to be applied?

As for Sharpcap and doing longer subs, you need to tick the LX (long exposure) box next to the gain slider. Then you’d be able to do subs of 5, 10 mins+.

Or could be that your gain just  needs raising, yours could be too low if others are using 200 with the same camera.

[alan potts]

46 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

 

I was referring to this in fact. I have heard people having trouble using APT with dedicated astro cameras once they switch from DSLRs. I have no doubt that APT works good for DSLR type devices but those occasional complaints suggest that it's not geared towards usage with dedicated astro cameras.

It might be as simple as already pointed out by @Laurin Dave and @david_taurus83 - fact that auto stretch works differently with ASCOM than with DSLR in APT. If not properly auto stretched you will just see black sky with odd bright star here and there.

As for adjusting workflow - I would start by looking at maybe different capture software if you can't get APT to play ball with ASCOM based camera - there is a free software ("on the rise" - there is even a thread named like that) that has quite a lot features and people give favorable reviews of it - it's called NINA, and here is thread about it:

You can also give SGP lite a go as it is free (and limited) version?

Firstly let me say I have read many many of your posts and feel you know what your talking about, I can't say I always understand what you write but I read anyway. As you rightly state here I see a black sky with the odd bright star at least showing it's working. Even after a bit of a half hearted stretch in PS it didn't look a whole lot better.

 I am open to try different software, it was just maybe me being pigheaded not wanting to move away from something I thought I knew fairly well, I.E. APT. I did try Sharpcap but this in the short term just confused me, which in itself is fairly easy to do. And do have ASI own software, both these though I feel are squared at planetary imaging, though I'm sure could be used.

As storms are the mode of the day after about 20 nights clear, I will give this a read.

Thank you for posting.

Alan

[vlaiv]

14 minutes ago, alan potts said:

Even after a bit of a half hearted stretch in PS it didn't look a whole lot better.

Yes, this part confused me and that is why I suggested attaching one of your subs. Decent stretch - either by capture application as a preview or in PS or similar should show plenty of stars in the background and any captured nebulosity or glob/galaxy - what ever you were after. If you missed your target, then it will obviously not show, but star field should show none the less.

[michael8554]

8 hours ago, alan potts said:

the images are very dark but they are images nonetheless and sharp, just nowhere near as bright as an image from my Canon after the same 3 minutes .

Depends what you're comparing. 

You could be looking at the preview images on the Canon which are stretched

Michael 

[alan potts]

10 hours ago, vlaiv said:

Yes, this part confused me and that is why I suggested attaching one of your subs. Decent stretch - either by capture application as a preview or in PS or similar should show plenty of stars in the background and any captured nebulosity or glob/galaxy - what ever you were after. If you missed your target, then it will obviously not show, but star field should show none the less.

Oh there were plenty of stars but it was not where I thought the telescope was pointing and no nebulosity. The odd thing was in the stretch every thing in Levels was so much different, I have never seen a histogram like it, everything was to the right, which is unusual, I will see if I can get the sub onto this computer and post it for you, I have no home network out in the garden, it's too far from the house.

Alan