Convince me to buy an Orion SkyQuest XT6 over an XT4.5

[Constellasian]

I've been going back and forth between the two, watched every youtube video and pretty sure read through every review online in this forum and everywhere else. Still seeking your comments to specific to my situation. 

I went the binocular route and glad I did. I'm ready for my first scope. Was about to click the buy button on a Celestron Powerseeker 127EQ, but after a few hours of research, decided a Dobsonian is right for me. Figured from photos that these things were huge and a bit obnoxious but after reading about it, I think it'll fit my application best. I have no interest in using this scope for astrophotography whatsoever. It'll literally be used for viewing in real time and sharing with no one that isn't standing right next to me. 

I'm a lover of all things small. I live in a big City and drive a small car for easy parallel parking. Yup, a family of four and we drive a hatchback with two car seats in the back for a 2 and 5 year old. I'm one of those guys who has a collection of slim wallets. I loved the tiny cell phones and sorta hate that these things have grown to the size of tablets. As such, I'm naturally leaning towards the XT4.5 for the compact size. 

• I do plan to bring it back and forth between two cities an hour apart perhaps monthly or every other month.
• I've got two kids as I've mentioned whom are my excuses for buying myself a new toy. Yeah, I just admitted that. 
• I'm conscious of the fact that the XT4.5 weighs about 17lbs vs the XT6 which weighs twice that. I'll be hauling it up and down a flight of stairs at home as it'll be stationed on a second floor but will be brought down one level for star gazing. More stairs when it out of the house. 
• Yup, I'm aware that there will be plenty of light pollution and Dobsonians aren't the best for that situation. I'm okay with waiting until my viewing target is well above the recommended 30 degrees and even 60 degrees for a clearer view. 
• The scope will be used for mostly just the moon and planets. 
  

I know myself as a tinkerer of sorts, modifying everything from cars to paintball markers, electric ice chests / bikes and whatever else I can get my hands on. No doubt, I'll be changing out eye pieces within months of owning an Orion SkyQuest XT and will find some excuse to get a better finderscope. 

Price of the two sizes are negligible since currently the price difference is only about $25 so that's not really a consideration. 

I keep hearing about how aperture is king and therefore an XT6 would be good. "Get as a big of an aperture as I can afford," is what's plastered all over the net. I get it, but I value the portability maybe more than most. XT6 is just shy of 4' long and XT4.5 is a foot shorter. 

WHY I DON'T WANT AN XT6
Everyone says that the XT6 is just as portable as the XT4.5 but perhaps not for me. I don't have a sedan. Compact crossover is the biggest car I have. Mazda CX-5 which might sound big enough, but when you have two car seats, nothing folds down. I just measured and a 4' anything won't fit in the trunk if it's cylindrical. I might be able to get creative, but it'll be a bit of a challenge. I'm thinking there's a chance if I take it of the base, I can fit the tube in between the seats vertically off the floor. Doesn't sound like a recipe for keeping the collimation to a minimum though. 

The kids might be more turned off by a larger scope that's harder for them to handle. At that age, they want to do everything themselves which is great. Go for it. Having to stand on a stool or me carry them is just another hassle that the XT4.5 would avoid all together. 

The sheer weight of the thing. 34lbs vs 17lbs up and down stairs regularly and in and out of the car. A 34lb XT6 is manageable but I'd definitely be more conscious of it. 

WHY ELSE DO I THINK I PREFER THE XT4.5?
I've read about a guy who kept his XT4.5 that lasted him 11 years before he got a "replacement." Sounds good to me! I'd be modifying the thing anyway with new eye pieces and maybe a new finderscope which will keep it "new feeling." 

If you're thinking I'd "upgrade" to an XT6 eventually, you're possibly right as I'd just keep one at my house and the other at my parent's house. I feel like I'd be missing out on the benefits of a smaller scope for transport and kids if I went straight to the XT6 w/out any real exposure to the XT4.5. 

Tell me I'm crazy.

[popeye85]

Ain't going to try and convince you to get something that doesn't suit your needs!! Get what ever works for you.

Although can I ask why you plumbed for a reflector? If you suffer from lots of LP then perhaps planetary and lunar viewing might be the better option rather then getting frustrated trying to find the faint fuzzies!

[Constellasian]

Excuse my ignorance. What is LP? 

I figured a reflector would be "best bang for the buck" as they say being that mirrors are cheaper than lenses and can offer me a larger aperture. I don't plan on looking at anything in the day time. Figured the reflector would be good. I know it's more prone to needing collmination, but I'm okay with that. I'm still newb. Are you suggesting that refractors are better for planetary and lunar viewing? How so? Any recommendations you have for that application? I'm all ears. 

[popeye85]

LP=light pollution.

Yes you are right about getting more bang for your buck with reflectors, especially dobs and the rule is the bigger the the mirror then the more light it gathers and so the fainter the object you can see-hence it is a favourite for people wishing to observe dso's (deep sky objects) however they can let in stray light if surrounded by light pollution.

Refractors on the other hand, although you get less light gathering capabilities for your money it does give you better colour contrast which is why it is preferred for planetary.

Of course living in a city doesn't mean you are completely restricted to local targets, you are able to get filters to help fight against LP.

[Constellasian]

Hmm, you got me thinking about the Orion StarBlast 90mm now. Uh-oh. Decisions decisions. I hadn't considered a refractor. This might change things up a bit. The place I travel to every couple of months though has very little light pollution. In ideal conditions, would a reflector or refractor get a better image? 

[alacant]

57 minutes ago, Constellasian said:

I'd "upgrade" to an XT6 eventually

Hi. I think your curiosity would get the better of you immediately rather than eventually;)

[Constellasian]

I can't deny the possibility. Haha. I'm thinking it's best that I attend a start party or something of that nature to actually look through these scopes to see what it's like in person. 

[mikeDnight]

Refractors will give amazing wide field views at low power, where deep sky objects glide into the field of view, seemingly effortlessly, and will give razor sharp high power views of moon & planets. Being well dark adapted for deep sky observing is still essential though! Many serious observers choose refractors between three and five inches as easily transportable, yet very capable telescopes. Their down side is that good ones are expensive when you get to the ED or apochromatic type, but they will offer a lifetime of enjoyment. 

[John]

21 minutes ago, popeye85 said:

Refractors on the other hand, although you get less light gathering capabilities for your money it does give you better colour contrast which is why it is preferred for planetary....

 

Actually reflectors are colour free. To get that with a refractor, as Mike says above, you need to invest in one with an ED doublet objective lens which drives the price higher than a 6 inch reflector (quite a bit higher).

Personally, I'd go for the 6 inch Orion Skyquest over the 4.5 inch for it's increased resolution and light gathering ability. It will do a fine job on a whole range of astro targets both in the solar system and the deeper sky.

Attending a star party to see and use scopes for real is a great plan

[Paul73]

Decisions, decisions ........

Go for the least hassle and the most likely to get you out with the kids (guilt free observing!!).

My 6 year old son got a 100mm minidob for Christmas last year. It gets chucked (carefully) in the car on top of the luggage and is very simple to use. The eye pieces that came with it were unuseable. You don’t need expensive glass. A carefully spent $100 will do you for a long time.

Ultimately, you may end up with a scope in each house.

Good luck with your choice.

Paul

[Constellasian]

What would I be missing out on by going with a reflector vs a refractor or refractor vs a reflector? 

[Nyctimene]

How about an "in-between" solution - the ubiquitous Skywatcher Heritage 130 P Flextube? Folds down to an extremely compact scope, that can be separated easily from the Dobsonian mount. Excellent optics, that allow magnifications beyond 230x; holds collimation well; many pleased owners in this forum. Would fit comfortably into the trunk of your car; shown here is it's place in my tiny Seat Mii (= VW Up!).

You could, as a tinkerer, even make the mount collapsible/foldable by replacing the three screws, that hold the vertical arm to the rotating disc, with threaded inserts.

Stephan

[popeye85]

Agree! The heritage is a great scope.

[Cosmic Geoff]

Nobody has mentioned Maksutov telescopes, which are something you might consider, budget permitting.  They are compact, relatively robust, rarely if ever require collimation, have a convenient eyepiece position and with their long focal ratios are suitable for planetary viewing etc.  A 100mm or 127mm Mak is an instrument you are likely to want to keep. I have never seen anybody complaining of having bought a bad one.

Between the XT's, if you have to carry it up and down stairs I suggest going for the smaller one.

[Ricochet]

36 minutes ago, Cosmic Geoff said:

Nobody has mentioned Maksutov telescopes, which are something you might consider, budget permitting.  They are compact, relatively robust, rarely if ever require collimation, have a convenient eyepiece position and with their long focal ratios are suitable for planetary viewing etc.  A 100mm or 127mm Mak is an instrument you are likely to want to keep. I have never seen anybody complaining of having bought a bad one.

I think this sounds like a good solution for a transportable planetary scope. How old are the children who you plan on sharing it with @Constellasian? A telescope with at least tracking, perhaps even go-to, will keep the object centred so that they don't have to nudge the telescope themselves. However, this will require deeper pockets than the telescopes initially under discussion. What is your budget and where are you located? You've mentioned $ so USA?

[Constellasian]

21 hours ago, Nyctimene said:

How about an "in-between" solution - the ubiquitous Skywatcher Heritage 130 P Flextube? Folds down to an extremely compact scope, that can be separated easily from the Dobsonian mount. Excellent optics, that allow magnifications beyond 230x; holds collimation well; many pleased owners in this forum. Would fit comfortably into the trunk of your car; shown here is it's place in my tiny Seat Mii (= VW Up!).

You could, as a tinkerer, even make the mount collapsible/foldable by replacing the three screws, that hold the vertical arm to the rotating disc, with threaded inserts.

Stephan

Looks awesome, the price on that Heritage actually doesn't seem bad at all. For that type of portability, I'd be sacrificing quite a bit compared to the XT6 or even the XT4.5, right? I realize the mirror extends out to double the length, but seems like it still wouldn't be as good as the XT4.5 or am I missing something? You're just recommending it b/c of the super portability, right? If so, that one definitely fits the criteria. I love the whole black and white theme too (not that that should matter when deciding on a scope). 

[Constellasian]

13 hours ago, Ricochet said:

I think this sounds like a good solution for a transportable planetary scope. How old are the children who you plan on sharing it with @Constellasian? A telescope with at least tracking, perhaps even go-to, will keep the object centred so that they don't have to nudge the telescope themselves. However, this will require deeper pockets than the telescopes initially under discussion. What is your budget and where are you located? You've mentioned $ so USA?

Kids are 2 and 5 years old as stated in the original post. They're my excuse for buying myself a new toy. Not interested in ones that trac automatically. Too much to go wrong and I feel like I need to learn to do stuff manually as a beginner before I get into something that I won't really be able to appreciate until I've done the hard work. Also the ones with computers are too pricy for a new hobby of which I'm unsure how deep I'll get into. The weight of it would also be a concern as one of my primary focuses are portability. 

[Constellasian]

Perhaps another way to word my goal is that I'm totally okay with limiting the objects I see, but the objects that I can see, I'd like to be able to see very well. With that in mind, am I at a loss if I get the XT4.5?

[SIDO]

2 hours ago, Constellasian said:

Perhaps another way to word my goal is that I'm totally okay with limiting the objects I see, but the objects that I can see, I'd like to be able to see very well. With that in mind, am I at a loss if I get the XT4.5?

XT6 has better resolution than the other, you will see more details on planets and moon verses the other.

If you decide to roadtrip to darkness for dso at some point, the XT6 will show you more dso and more detail in dso than the other.

The weight of the  two choices you describe would likely be of little notice to a younger healthy adult especially as dobs are often carried in two pieces each piece is about half the weight of the complete telescope.

The XT6 at the f8 focal ratio is a good choice for planets and moon in general as the longer focal ratio will be more forgiving on cheaper eye pieces allowing you to see better for less cash (concerning eye pieces not aperture) than shorter focal ratio dobs like f5 or f6 the point where telescopes tend to get a bit more finicky about eye pieces.

I can only suggest a telescope and the XT6 I definitely like and have had the opportunity to use, it would serve your purposes well and l think you would enjoy it.

The convincing I will leave up too you though...

      Best of Luck,

                       Freddie ?

[Alan White]

Having read through this thread, I must comment.
Your thoughts are contradicting themselves as is the advice given.

You say you have a small car all seats full, that sound familiar to many family astronomers.
Car size UK to USA is always a challenge as small USA often equates into mid sized or bigger here in the uk;
you do live in the land of upsize after all.

You talk about stairs etc to carry the scope up too, are they just a few steps or are we talking a number of flights?

The one thing I would say, small, portable and therefore used is beautiful, you can always upsize in time when the children grow or you move home etc, situations change, the does not.

The steps in scope size relating to view is relative:
You might get a brighter view and a very small increase in detail,
but at the cost of lack of portability and the larger scope then not getting used.

Good luck with your choice and eventual scope.

[Constellasian]

As I become more convinced of what I want, I'm getting new advice that deserves some attention as you guys are much more experienced than I so I'm entertaining everything at the moment researching everything that's coming in on the thread. 

The stairs I'm referring to are 3 flights in and out of the house. 

As for the car, even a small hatchback would fit the biggest of scopes but I don't have the option of folding the seats down which really limits my cargo space. I'm in agreeance with everything you're saying about portability which has me thinking even more about what I'm "sacrificing" for that portability. 

[knobby]

Hi, if planets / Lunar are your goal then one of these https://www.telescope.com/Orion/Telescopes/Cassegrain-Telescopes/Orion-StarMax-127mm-Equatorial-Maksutov-Cassegrain-Telescope/rc/2160/pc/-1/c/1/sc/14/p/9826.uts

Would be ideal, very compact well built and excellent views on the above.

Don't be afraid of the mount, you can get different mounts for the same scope - alt az, eq etc.

[domstar]

My advice is- don't be put off by a small scope. The moon always looks great in a telescope as do Jupiter and Saturn. Open clusters like Pleiades, for example, are fine in a small telescope are is the Orion Nebula and a whole host of double stars. Galaxies are going to be faint in any of the scopes mentioned above.

Your sessions with the kids are going to be very short. They are not going to spend twenty minutes contemplating the rough edges of a crater on the moon. Thirty seconds an object is more realistic. This means a quick set up and take down are essential if you are going to be bothered to do this more than ten times. If the bug takes you then you'll want to upgrade from all of these scopes (and then again). By that time, however, you'll know what you want and how to accomplish that (to a certain extent). 

Good luck and don't worry about missing out. Nobody here will let you buy a turkey so whatever you choose will be very decent.

 

[Alan White]

One comment to add.

Can you change your location to USA and where?  It will help us.
We are a UK based forum, so Bay Area could be Whitley Bay, Northumberland, UK or ......

[Constellasian]

4 hours ago, domstar said:

My advice is- don't be put off by a small scope. The moon always looks great in a telescope as do Jupiter and Saturn. Open clusters like Pleiades, for example, are fine in a small telescope are is the Orion Nebula and a whole host of double stars. Galaxies are going to be faint in any of the scopes mentioned above.

Your sessions with the kids are going to be very short. They are not going to spend twenty minutes contemplating the rough edges of a crater on the moon. Thirty seconds an object is more realistic. This means a quick set up and take down are essential if you are going to be bothered to do this more than ten times. If the bug takes you then you'll want to upgrade from all of these scopes (and then again). By that time, however, you'll know what you want and how to accomplish that (to a certain extent). 

Good luck and don't worry about missing out. Nobody here will let you buy a turkey so whatever you choose will be very decent.

 

Thanks for the support. You're totally right about the kid's attention spans. It'll be more frequent sessions as opposed to longer duration of each session. I'm definitely ready for that. They're my excuse for buying a telescope for myself, but I do honestly hope that they'll take some time to use the opportunity to learn a thing or two about the universe as far as astronomy goes at least. 

4 hours ago, Alan White said:

One comment to add.

Can you change your location to USA and where?  It will help us.
We are a UK based forum, so Bay Area could be Whitley Bay, Northumberland, UK or ......

Thanks for your comment. You're totally right. I just updated it.