It didnt go to plan - First Night Of Astrophotography

[Scoresby]

Hi

This is my first post and apologies if this is in the wrong section ... a search of similar issues brought me to this section of the forum so ...

Firstly equipment

StarWatcher Explorer 200p   8 inch ... 200mm 1000 FL/ EQ5 Mount ---- Camera: Canon EOS 750D

 

So 2 weeks ago I had a passing interest in looking at the stars which I had from childhood. But I also have a love of photography. And having just got this camera I was playing with the settings and discovered that there was a potential to photograph the stars. Im a newb atdslrs but I have had SLR experience from a young age. It would have cost me £15.00 for a 600 ISO film and here I have it at the flick of a switch. Anyway after playing with the settings I could visualise what I might get. later out came the tripod and I had a play ...... blew my mind. After searching online for days reading all I could I decided that a telescope would seriously add to the experience. And so I bought one. I know its a good scope but I knew nothing. 

 

Scroll foreward to today and I am stumped as to why the pictures came out like they did. Well I say stumped ... i get the mechanics of it but I cant see why it shouldnt be possible. The scope has been collimated to within a micron of its life. Laser. Mount was aligned to north using compass and then polarscope used to locate accurately North Star. After that I didnt go on to align the scope because I just wanted to have a play rather than track. T ring has been bought and the adaptor so I can use it in prime. I did try this and had results but they were very very poor. Tried with a Barlow x 2 and that resulted in nothing but a black screen. Came back inside and looked at the train set up I had ... removed the lens cap from the barlow .... went back outside to have another go. No same results. 

 

So the first thing to say was that although I could see a couple of stars through the live view .... it was a couple. Changing the settings didnt alter anything greatly. But I had tried during the day with excellent results. There are no lenses in the train just inserted prime. And it magnified a hell of a lot. Which surprised me because .... no lenses. But given the test field of view I should have been able to take it outside and fix it on Orions nebula ... and have a lovely picture. What I got was disaster.

 

The best I was able to achieve was ISO set at 6400 .... shutter speed 1 second ..... and even then I had small star trails. Anything longer shutter speed wise and the trails got longer. Any lowering of the ISO resulted in darker and darker images. To correct this I left shutter open longer .... and the trails got longer. 

Camera was in prime. With a low profile t ring because I had read much about the focusing assembly preventing correct focusing. In daylight the results are beautiful ... at night its like watching stars after 6 pints at best. According to the (What your telsecope will show) web page that allows you to put in your telescope and camera details and it shows what happens to the nebula image ... I should be blown away :/

 

I fear the answer will be - Tracking mount needed. But at least that is a way to go. Can the EQ5 be adapted added to.

 

I am hoping that my obvious lack of knowledge means that something can be added to the train to help.

 

But at present I am left with the impression that the camera isnt fast enough to beat the earths turn. Except that I know it is. Ive done it without the scope .....

 

I am loving finding things with the scope. Found the crab nebula last night. I sure would like to photograph them. 

[Davey-T]

Hi and welcome to SGL and the wacky world of astro' imaging no shortage of advice here.

That is a rather long focal length scope for imaging with an untracked setup and as you say stars will get misshapen  quickly.

I believe that motors can be added to the EQ5 but it may still struggle with your scope.

Have you got any camera lenses to use ? these will give pretty good results, to achieve reasonable stars you'd be better off with something like a Sky Watcher Star Adventurer  and a smaller scope or camera lens mounted on it, this should get you up to 5 minute exposures depending on the lens / scope.

Dave

 

 

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Shorter focal lengths are always the better way to start imaging the sky. A tracking motor is a must for any longer exposures. With a 200mm lens on a modified EOS 550D I managed this, which is about 3 hours of 1-2 minute shots on an EQ3-2 mount equipped with fairly cheap motors (easily added).

Same mount, with a short refractor and focal reducer  (80mm aperture, 384mm focal length), using 60 1 minute exposures.

 

 

Not perfect by any means, but it shows what a DSLR with tracking mount can do at short focal lengths.

[Scoresby]

16 minutes ago, Davey-T said:

Hi and welcome to SGL and the wacky world of astro' imaging no shortage of advice here.

That is a rather long focal length scope for imaging with an untracked setup and as you say stars will get misshapen  quickly.

I believe that motors can be added to the EQ5 but it may still struggle with your scope.

Have you got any camera lenses to use ? these will give pretty good results, to achieve reasonable stars you'd be better off with something like a Sky Watcher Star Adventurer  and a smaller scope or camera lens mounted on it, this should get you up to 5 minute exposures depending on the lens / scope.

Dave

 

 

Hi Dave and Thank You ... 

If by lenses you mean that came with the scope I do. A 25mm and a 10mm but I cant see a way of adding them to the train. Could it be another adapter may be needed. I have seen the same set up on utube with the 25mm .... but it did seem a bit cobbled together and wobbly. Which is fine ... if it works. but a stable option would be better.

 

Just reread your post .. yeah it came with the kit lens 18 - 55 but I will be getting the samyang 14mm f 2.8 

[Scoresby]

Hmmmm 

4 minutes ago, michael.h.f.wilkinson said:

Shorter focal lengths are always the better way to start imaging the sky. A tracking motor is a must for any longer exposures. With a 200mm lens on a modified EOS 550D I managed this, which is about 3 hours of 1-2 minute shots on an EQ3-2 mount equipped with fairly cheap motors (easily added).

Same mount, with a short refractor and focal reducer  (80mm aperture, 384mm focal length), using 60 1 minute exposures.

 

 

Not perfect by any means, but it shows what a DSLR with tracking mount can do at short focal lengths.

I mean look at those photos ... just beautiful. When I managed to locate the crab nebula last night I was so chuffed. Fuzzy area which my eyes gradually managed to pick out parts of. But Orions nebula was .... jaw dropping .... also looked at the moon. That hurt ... wont do that again in a hurry ?

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

32 minutes ago, Scoresby said:

Hmmmm 

I mean look at those photos ... just beautiful. When I managed to locate the crab nebula last night I was so chuffed. Fuzzy area which my eyes gradually managed to pick out parts of. But Orions nebula was .... jaw dropping .... also looked at the moon. That hurt ... wont do that again in a hurry ?

The Orion Nebula is absolutely stunning. I managed that too with both set-ups listed above

3 hours of 60s shots at F/3.5 and ISO 800

7 hours of various exposure times using the 80mm scope at F/4.8

Note that here my modded 550D will have an edge over your non-modified camera, as it is far more sensitive in H-alpha.

[Z3roCool]

I think your assumption is correct. I used to try and take pictures with my 400mm lens and used to get trails fairly quickly. With a longer focal length it will massively increase this. Maybe try a smaller focal length to begin with if possible.? Ended up buying an NEQ6 and at first got 2mins unguided but now I have guiding going getting up to 6mins easy. A good mount is the way to go. These 2 images are the very first I ever took with my NEQ6 mount. They are not great and the processing was my earliest, so bad, but blew my mind when I got them!

[Scoresby]

Guys .... thank you. It was the piece of the puzzle I lacked .... focal length effects knowledge. Like I said I know it's a good scope. After scouting around the net using your information focal length is the issue. It is however solvable in various ways. 

 

Sell and start again ... or keep .... I so wanna keep it. I'll be keeping it. 

 

Buy a small focal length scope with a low f value. A quick squiz has shown one for £21.00 at the moment on flea bay ...

 

Or motorise the scope I have. A go to set up to upgrade is ... roughly £100.00 ... 

Buy a specialised Web Cam affair to go 8n the train but again lack of motors on the mount will limit options. 

Thank you all for your help. I personally think small focal length scope on a tracking mount will be the hit the ground running way to go. If I want to punish myself stick with my set up and upgrade it lol. Thanks again guys. 

 

[carastro]

Yes, unfortunately deep sky Astroimaging is not so simple as putting the camera into the telescope and taking a shot.

Much of this reasoning has been covered above, but to summarise.

Deep sky imaging is faint and needs a tracking mount so you can take long exposure.  (preferably a mount capable of guiding as well as the longer the exposure even the tracking on its own will not suffice).

As stated above it's easier to start out with a much smaller scope as this will place less demands on tracking, finding the target and your novice skills.  

During the day time things are bright and there is no sky rotation.  

You also mentioned about getting the pole star in the centre.   this is fine for observing, but with astro photography, if you are going to get into it seriously, this needs to be further refined since polaris rotates around the true pole.

A barlow is not ideal for DS imaging, and especially in your case, it will only make your current problems even worse. 

Not going to blind you with any more techie stuff at this stage.

Carole 

 

[Alien 13]

1 hour ago, Scoresby said:

Hi Dave and Thank You ... 

If by lenses you mean that came with the scope I do. A 25mm and a 10mm but I cant see a way of adding them to the train. Could it be another adapter may be needed. I have seen the same set up on utube with the 25mm .... but it did seem a bit cobbled together and wobbly. Which is fine ... if it works. but a stable option would be better.

 

Just reread your post .. yeah it came with the kit lens 18 - 55 but I will be getting the samyang 14mm f 2.8 

Adding extra lenses into the image train will just make things worse for DSO but fine for Planets and Lunar, I have an EQ3-2 which is almost identical to the EQ5 and run it with a single axis motor (the proper one with Xtal Oscillator) and it will quite happily do two minute subs at say 200mm f/l and as a bonus the motor/handset can be run off a 5V mobile phone battery bank although you will have to make a lead up.

Alan

[Demonperformer]

Hi & welcome to SGL. 

If AP  is your passion, then I would recommend a copy of Making Every Photon Count  (obtainable from FLO - our sponsor) - it will save you time,  money and heartache in the long run. 

[steppenwolf]

To get good results, you should make the mount the priority and that means an equatorial tracking mount. Upgrading your EQ5 to GoTo will take you part of the way there but only with shorter focal length instruments.

You are embarking on an exciting venture here but I would urge you to research very carefully to avoid wasting money on equipment that won't be up to the demanding requirements of astrophotography.

You'll get plenty of advice on this forum!

[adyj1]

So, your current setup can be tweaked to improve its AP capabilities - as long as you are sure that you can achieve focus with your DSLR on your telescope (without using the 2x barlow).  You can test this during daylight by focusing on a far-off terrestial object.

Bear in mind  the mount/scope combination you have is not ideal - the weight of the OTA is pushing the EQ5 to its upper limits of stability, and also the focuser could be better for fine-tuning - but, unless you have the budget to get a better one its what you've got for now, and IMHO it is good enough to learn the ropes. You will need to upgrade eventually, but will have learnt a lot in the interim, and hopefully been pleased with the images you have been able to create. 

At this stage I would consider which category of beginner you are;

1. "I want to get in to astrophotography and I have more money to buy the kit I need."  (Changing your mount could cost £500-1000.)

2. "I want to get in to astrophotography but I have to make do with what I've got for the forseeable future." Tweaking what you've got could cost around £100. (if you are lucky and can get it second-hand, even less)

You'll notice neither option involved spending no money... welcome to AP  

If you are in category 1, a mount upgrade is required - an NEQ6 is probably a long-term sensible bet. 

If you are in category 2, look to get motors for the EQ5. Something like EQ5 Dual Axis Motors would do if you have to buy new. Keep an eye on the For Sale forum, and the astrobuysell website.

And definitely get 'every photon counts'. 

Hope this helps,

Ady

 

[almcl]

Much good advice given above, so just to add that I started with an EQ5 and a SW200P.  Qucikly added the dual axis tracking motors, then guiding, then replaced the motors with an AstroEQ and stepper motors.  This last was a game changer as it not only provided much better tracking, but also gave Goto capability.  If you are handy and can fabricate the brackets and solder the circuit board, it should be possible for £100 or less. You do need a laptop or similar to run it. 

The images in my album were almost all taken with this rig, and I still use the EQ5 but with a 200mm f/l length Canon lens on the 700d.  

[Scoresby]

2 hours ago, adyj1 said:

So, your current setup can be tweaked to improve its AP capabilities - as long as you are sure that you can achieve focus with your DSLR on your telescope (without using the 2x barlow).  You can test this during daylight by focusing on a far-off terrestial object.

Bear in mind  the mount/scope combination you have is not ideal - the weight of the OTA is pushing the EQ5 to its upper limits of stability, and also the focuser could be better for fine-tuning - but, unless you have the budget to get a better one its what you've got for now, and IMHO it is good enough to learn the ropes. You will need to upgrade eventually, but will have learnt a lot in the interim, and hopefully been pleased with the images you have been able to create. 

At this stage I would consider which category of beginner you are;

1. "I want to get in to astrophotography and I have more money to buy the kit I need."  (Changing your mount could cost £500-1000.)

2. "I want to get in to astrophotography but I have to make do with what I've got for the forseeable future." Tweaking what you've got could cost around £100. (if you are lucky and can get it second-hand, even less)

You'll notice neither option involved spending no money... welcome to AP  

If you are in category 1, a mount upgrade is required - an NEQ6 is probably a long-term sensible bet. 

If you are in category 2, look to get motors for the EQ5. Something like EQ5 Dual Axis Motors would do if you have to buy new. Keep an eye on the For Sale forum, and the astrobuysell website.

And definitely get 'every photon counts'. 

Hope this helps,

Ady

 

Yep your post has solidified my own opinions and guesses into cold hard facts lol.  Thank you very much for taking the time to explain so well.

 

So solutions are limited to .... 

1. Start again. 2. Adapt and potentially struggle at each stage 3. Fudge 

 

The problem is light. I need it to get here in greater quantities or faster or both. The cameras sensor is fine for this so that isn't the issue. The issue is getting g enough light on the sensor within the cameras limits and before the earth turns. The 500 rule works fine with the kit lens ..... it may work with the 25mm super wide angle lens. This will bring light enough in to reduce shutter speed and with a decent iso. .... but getting it in the correct focal length area for the sensor is gonna be a bodge. I believe the focal plane for my camera is 35 to 55mm. 6 ish mm from lens surface to eye. Focusing may help bring the focal point of the lens out a bit further ?

 

At any rate it's a free option which may yield results. I think this is projection photography isn't it. 

 

[Demonperformer]

Another quick thought occurs - if you select objects that ate closer to the pole, you can get longer times before tracking inaccuracies start showing up. This is obviously a short term quick fix, butaye help you to get something before splurging the cash. 

[adyj1]

So are you thinking about something like this? universal-camera-adaptor-for-eyepiece

Ady

[Alien 13]

Eyepiece projection will just make things worse it would be far better to save for the dual axis drives like this.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-mount-accessories/enhanced-dual-axis-dc-motor-drives-for-eq-5.html

In the meantime you could try using your setup and manually adjusting the RA slow motion to keep the image in the camera live view centered, this is how I did it many years ago using film cameras. This method should get you some results if you can manually track for 30 seconds or more.

Alan

[Scoresby]

26 minutes ago, adyj1 said:

So are you thinking about something like this? universal-camera-adaptor-for-eyepiece

Ady

Sort of Ady. There two problems with that connector (I already have one of those)

 

1. Once screwed into the t ring extender which luckily I was able to rob off my laser collimator the lense has to go in the wrong way round. It may be that it doesn't matter and they are planed equally on both sides. I doubt it tho. 

2. The screw sits too proud to go into the focuser. I could if the lens orentaion didn't matter ... dreamel the head in half on the screw so it's profile slid in. But I'm guessing the lens must be the right way round. 

 

No I'm taliking about placing the lens inside the t ring  adapter.  It fits snug because the inside of the adapter is threaded and the rubber eyepiece grips that quite well. I have 10mm play in and out as well as the thread for the adapter ring. If it could work it should give me 20 seconds. 

 

Of course my hopes and dreams my be crushed to microns by someone who actually knows stuff unlike me who is the wing it wonder ?

 

 

[Scoresby]

10 minutes ago, Alien 13 said:

Eyepiece projection will just make things worse it would be far better to save for the dual axis drives like this.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-mount-accessories/enhanced-dual-axis-dc-motor-drives-for-eq-5.html

In the meantime you could try using your setup and manually adjusting the RA slow motion to keep the image in the camera live view centered, this is how I did it many years ago using film cameras. This method should get you some results if you can manually track for 30 seconds or more.

Alan

Well .... now ....  we both know I'm gonna try it :D. When it fails I'll not mention it OK.  

[adyj1]

Dear Mr Wing It, 

Discoveries were made by people trying things out ?

(As long as you promise us you won't get disheartened, ok?) 

Keep using your scope for visual, though. And if the AP through the 200p doesn't work, there's plenty still to be done with widefield with the dslr lens. 

Oh, and save up for some sort of motorised tracking - you're nearly there! 

Ady

[Alien 13]

As Ady has said keep going, dont forget the Moon and Planets you can get by with minimal or no tracking with these and its a good way to get familiar with your kit.

Alan

[Scoresby]

Thank you both. I have spoken to father Christmas in the interim ....... quite a potty mouth as it turns out .... so wing it it will have to be for the moment. 

There is nothing to get disheartened about I promise. It's all a learning curve. And the kind information has helped a lot.  I am torn  I must admit. Yes I want those images shown but as I stood outside for several hours perched on the edge of a footstool .... hands clawed from the cold .... drool, unoticed for some while apparently,  I realised that it was all quite magical just watching it all. 

I forgot the hateful hour grovelling on the concrete attempting to polar align it (fCs which one is the bleeding pole star!!!!!). 

I don't want to lose all that beauty to get a lesser scope which makes pretty pictures. 

Tho in either case .... something that tracks is looking awfully inevitable.

[Stub Mandrel]

8 hours ago, Scoresby said:

But at present I am left with the impression that the camera isnt fast enough to beat the earths turn. Except that I know it is. Ive done it without the scope .....

If you've managed pictures with a 50mm lens, changing to a 1000mm scope will see them move across the frame 20 times faster

[Davey-T]

In the " good old days " folk used to guide manually with their eye glued to an illuminated reticle eyepiece for hours,  no reason in can't still be done 

Dave