£1000 to spend. Scope advice please!

[starbarkingduck]

Hi all. I'm new here. My daughter (13) and I are looking to get our first telescope this Christmas and have a budget of around £900 - £1000, give or take.

Reading as much info as I can it's a real minefield / information overload! 

We're both brand new to this so are looking for something simple enough to use/setup and will last us, but also something that we wont be disappointed with the results of. I've been looking at a reflector - Skywatcher 200P or the 200PDS on the EQ5 mount. I'm told the eq5 wouldn't hold the 10". And don'  think I could get the HEQ5 or the NE6 PRO. I've also looked at the refractor Skywatcher Evostar 150 also on the eq5.

We hope to get good general views of everything - moon/planets etc. but also some DSO.

My daughter would much prefer a "traditional" looking setup rather than a dobsonian (sadly). I wondering if a refractor offers a more 'grab n go' approach over an 8" reflector??

I know you guys must get this soooo often but please throw me a bone here, im tearing my hair out not knowing what the right move is. I understand for DSO that aperture is king but i hear that a refractor would give clearer images for moon/planets. I just need some advice/reassurance. I'm by no means set on the 2 mentioned above. 

Yesterday I looked at a thread on here of photos taken on an eq3 mount which looked great to me but i also hear that astrophotography should almost be seen as a totally different area and I should think about one or the other!? To produce those beautiful colour-filled pictures of nebula etc would be a dream come true. Should I just forget this dream on my budget or is it a possibility?

Honestly, anyone with anything to say would be so gratefully received.

Many thanks

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi starbarkingduck & daughter and welcome to SGL. 

GEM/EQ mounts can be intimidating if you have not used one before, especially the 'cheaper' ones. If you are going to do astrophotography now or later. DSO's then you will need one.

For ease of use and viewing then a 200mm 'Dob' would suffice. It is Alt-Az. You can do photos with one but mainly are limited to the Moon, Venus, Jupiter. Mars is 'doable' but is a small disc, (though it is due to make another close encounter sometime in 2018).

I do not do astrophotography at present, so these are my own personal thoughts. Other SGL'ers with more experience will offer you more advice.

 

[starbarkingduck]

Thank you for your replys. It' very much appreciated.

I'm not sure what groups there are here in Hull. I went along to one a couple of years ago but they didn' get any scopes out. It was more of a lecture and I understood very little. But I guess it' worth trying to see if there are any other groups now?

I'll take a look at the skytee mount you mentioned.

[alan potts]

There are one or two memberse in and around Hull, I lived there myself of 29 years. Now I know you said you didn't want one but Dobs are a great scope for your money, ie you get size and they are very simple to use. You also get to learn the night sky with aid of a good atlas. I have many scopes and a Dob was my last buy and I wish it had been my first, add to that they are easy to put in the car and go somewhere dark, Westwood say, even my 18 inch will go in a normal family car, FLO has a great selection of them and will give quality information to any question you may have, as well as us lot.

Alan

[alanjgreen]

starbarkingduck,

before you buy anything you need to decide if you are VISUAL or ASTROPHOTOGRAPHY. They are 2 separate hobbies and the scope requirements are different. Sure, people "make do" and "put square peg in round hole" but you really need to decide on this issue up front?

If photography then buy the book "making every photon count" and read it or you could be wasting 100s of pounds (unless you drop lucky)

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

If visual then can I suggest something cheaper to get you started and maybe hooked on the hobby? (less risky)

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/sky-watcher-star-discovery-150p.html

It will be great for you and your daughter as the goto will help find stuff, it has tracking so you can swap places at the eyepiece and the object will still be sitting there.

The scope is physically smaller and easier to store, easier to lift outside. Your daughter may manage it on her own without mithering you to get up and sort it out.

AND

If you decide astronomy is not for you then nothing much lost, you can sell it second hand on astrobuysell for 70% of new price.

Alan

[starbarkingduck]

8 minutes ago, alanjgreen said:

starbarkingduck,

before you buy anything you need to decide if you are VISUAL or ASTROPHOTOGRAPHY. They are 2 separate hobbies and the scope requirements are different. Sure, people "make do" and "put square peg in round hole" but you really need to decide on this issue up front?

If photography then buy the book "making every photon count" and read it or you could be wasting 100s of pounds (unless you drop lucky)

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/books/making-every-photon-count-steve-richards.html

If visual then can I suggest something cheaper to get you started and maybe hooked on the hobby? (less risky)

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/sky-watcher-star-discovery-150p.html

It will be great for you and your daughter as the goto will help find stuff, it has tracking so you can swap places at the eyepiece and the object will still be sitting there.

The scope is physically smaller and easier to store, easier to lift outside. Your daughter may manage it on her own without mithering you to get up and sort it out.

AND

If you decide astronomy is not for you then nothing much lost, you can sell it second hand on astrobuysell for 70% of new price.

Alan

Hi @alanjgreen i think that VISUAL is definitely the way for us to go and have seen a few recommendations on here over the past few hours for the Skywatcher star discovery 150 with goto. I think this might be a good way to go for us.

Is there a equivalent to this with more aperture. May be an 8" version? Or does that take me into the EQ5 area!? It sounds like (for us) that an equatorial mount might not be the way to go.

Thank you

[alanjgreen]

19 minutes ago, starbarkingduck said:

Hi @alanjgreen i think that VISUAL is definitely the way for us to go and have seen a few recommendations on here over the past few hours for the Skywatcher star discovery 150 with goto. I think this might be a good way to go for us.

Is there a equivalent to this with more aperture. May be an 8" version? Or does that take me into the EQ5 area!? It sounds like (for us) that an equatorial mount might not be the way to go.

Thank you

If you want 8" aperture and small, compact, manageable size then I would go for an SCT scope. Celestron Nexstar 8SE or similar

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/se-series/celestron-nexstar-8se.html

Now you are over budget! Alternative is to go second hand and save the 30% new premium.

An 8" reflector on AZ or EQ mount is a BIG beast (that loves the wind - not) and should be seen in a showroom before you purchase. Your daugther will not setup one of these without your help/assistance.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/skywatcher-explorer-200p-heq5-pro.html

or the 8" dob with goto is in budget

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/dobsonians/skywatcher-skyliner-200p-flextube-goto.html

but is still big and hefty. The question to ponder is where am I storing this scope when not in use?

SCTs are physicaly much smaller and compact in comparison.

fyi, I started with a 130mm reflector and moved up to an 8" SCT from there. My SCT was a "CPC800" and it was a superb scope. The dual arms makes it rock steady in use (I have wobbly views!). I sold my CPC800 second hand for £900. ( http://www.astrobuysell.com/uk/ )

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/cpc-gps-series/celestron-cpc-800-gps-xlt.html

If I was wanting to get my daughter started then a serious consideration would be to get something she can handle and not be intimidated by its size of weight.

Try to search out some youtube videos of people using these scopes, then you can see the SIZE of them!

Finally if you fancy a trip to sheffield to see some scopes try Rother Valley Optics. Phone them to see what they have on display...

Address: 21 Station Road, Kiveton Park, Sheffield, South Yorkshire S26 6QP

http://www.rothervalleyoptics.co.uk/

 

Alan

[starbarkingduck]

I think you could 'e right about that @alanjgreen. I don' want to put either of us off with anything too big and heavy and therefore unmanageable. 

How do you think the 6" celestron nexstar compares to the SW star discovery 150?

[M Astronomy]

Hey there, the Star Discovery 150 sounds like a great idea, but'll I just give you some advice while I'm here anyway. £1000 is A LOT of money to put into a hobby that you don't even know you're dedicated too. However, if you are up for investing that amount of money into VISUAL astronomy, I would definitely go for a large GOTO dobsonian. Yes, I know your daughter wants a more traditional looking telescope, but she's going to be more disappointed with a smaller aperture refractor that, while good for planets and the moon, will not stand up to many of the DSOs you will eventually seek out. Also, consider how much enjoyment you are going to get out of the scope, even if your daughter doesn't. A Skywatcher 200p/250px Flex Tube dobsonian will provide great views, without the confusion of an EQ mount or the frustration of a non-goto dobsonian (it is a pain when you can't find a thing). It may seem large and a bit much to handle at first, but will honestly save money, as aperture fever creeps in VERY quickly with a small scope. Also, quick word of warning, make sure your daughter knows what to expect. DSOs are NOT the bright colourful images you see on google. They are grey fuzzy blobs that fill those who understand what they are looking at with fascination. Hope this helps!

[Nyctimene]

2 hours ago, starbarkingduck said:

are looking for something simple enough to use/setup and will last us, but also something that we wont be disappointed with the results of

 

6 minutes ago, alanjgreen said:

If I was wanting to get my daughter started then a serious consideration would be to get something she can handle and not be intimidated by its size of weight.

Concerning both aspects, I'd suggest (once more) to have a look at the Skywatcher Heritage 130 P Flextube.  Lightweight (6,7 kg in total), very simple to set up alone and to use for a teenager; gives very good pictures of moon, planets and Deep Sky objects (DSO's), holds collimation well and takes very little space for storage. And it's cheap - at the moment, 137 GBP e.g. from FLO. So, no big loss, if your daughter's interest would fade away later; but, in case you both would stick to stargazing, the 130 P could serve as an excellent grab-and-go scope or travel scope.

Have a look on here:

and here:

http://neilenglish.net/a-newtonian-travel-scope/
 

Hope this helps

Enjoy the forum, keep on asking, and take yourself time for the decision!

Stephan

[Cosmic Geoff]

Even if you have a budget of £1000, spending that much on a large telescope might not be your best plan. As for your first choice, I have that setup and can tell you that it is not the easiest to use. Pointed at the zenith, and with the tripod legs fully extended to clear garden fences, the eyepiece is about 7 feet off the ground.  As it is an equatorial mount, the eyepiece can assume some awkward angles.  There is also the problem that it is quite difficult to find anything with it. Not a problem with planets which are bright and in sensible places in  the sky, but a nightmare if trying to find a faint object near the zenith, especially with straight-thru finders.

Unless you have a rooted objection to GoTo, I would suggest starting with a much smaller instrument, with GoTo, e.g a 127mm Maksutov. This will still be a handy instrument to keep even if you graduate to something bigger.

For the moon or planets, the Mak will perform similarly to an affordable, slightly smaller refractor.  There is endless discussion about what sort of instrument is best for planets but a Mak is not that bad compared with the other options. A bigger reflector may out-perform it on planets but not (in my experience) in an impressive manner, on an average night.  Only on deep space fuzzy objects does a large aperture really score.

And get an alt-azimuth GoTo if you only want visual. They are much easier to manage than an equatorial GoTo, which you only really need for astro-photography.

[alanjgreen]

13 minutes ago, starbarkingduck said:

I think you could 'e right about that @alanjgreen. I don' want to put either of us off with anything too big and heavy and therefore unmanageable. 

How do you think the 6" celestron nexstar compares to the SW star discovery 150?

They are both 6" and they both have goto. The outcome for you as a user will be similar.

The SCT is probably a nicer package but its still 6" aperture and you may well out grow it pretty quick if you get hooked and want bigger.  SCT have a longer focal length which makes them better for planets and the moon. ( The planets are not well placed for the next few years so dont expect any great views of them while they are low in the sky ).

I would go with the cheaper 6" reflector and leave the other money "in the kitty" if you decide to upgrade in the future after getting "hooked". An 8" SCT has double the aperture of a 6" SCT so I would skip up to one of them as a "next step". First test the water and see if you like it before spending loads of hard earned cash The 6" reflector is a great starter scope!

 

[cesco]

Hi,

12 years ago I was forced to turn astrophotographer from visual (close double stars and planets) observer because of steadily and heavily growing light pollution of my observing site. Many years ago the Milky Way was plainly visible after nautical twilight while now it is NO lomger visible at all, and  only three to four UMi stars are usually visible through the night . So I first  resorted to a larger aperture, but the trick lasted few years, and then I decided that more photons had to be collected thus starting astrophotography. To be said I am not the one willing to load my big refractor onto my car and move elsewhere from my roof which in the time I made comfortable as facilities and stay, even if I know that the milky way is on the reach within a few kilometers...   

This is to say that one criterion to decide what to become as a grown up amateur astronomer is also ligth pollution of one's backyard and willingness to front uncomfortable moving around. Especially when the issue is to passionate to this hobby modern kids, usually prone more to a confortable smartphone than to tiring and chilling trips to the woods with complicate setup's to manage! 

[starbarkingduck]

Some great advice coming in and advice that saves me money too! Thank you all. Unless i can convince her about the Dobsonian I think the discovery would be a good first option then.

I'm not sure why she's so against them. It just doesn' have "the look" i guess. Its a shame cus i love the look of them and would go straight for the 250 with the synscan which I know would be incredible!

Thank you all again.

[Cosmic Geoff]

2 minutes ago, starbarkingduck said:

I'm not sure why she's so against them. It just doesn' have "the look" i guess. Its a shame cus i love the look of them and would go straight for the 250 with the synscan which I know would be incredible!

An up close and personal with a 200mm equatorially mounted Newtonian should change her mind. Get her to stick it on the mount unassisted too.

[Astro Imp]

As has been said £1000 is a lot of money to invest in a hobby you haven't tried. I would hate you to spend this amount and find in a couple of months that standing/sitting in the cold looking at faint smudges for hours isn't your thing. 

The easily observable objects are the moon, Jupiter, Saturn, possibly Mars, Venus whose phases are interesting to follow and a few easy to find DSOs. Unfortunately Jupiter and Saturn will not be presenting themselves at their best for a few years and discerning detail on Mars is not easy. 

I'm not trying to be negative but attempting to show you the reality of this hobby. 

I started about seven years ago with a 150P on an EQ3 equatorial mount and although using it was filled with frustration it got me hooked. Earlier in the year I upgraded to the scope in my signature. To me this was one of the best purchase I've made but I very much doubt I would have spent this amount on a first scope. 

Please try and find a local club to view members' equipment and talk to these members to get their thoughts.

Good luck and take your time.

[ollypenrice]

If you can work on the 'Dob' angle you should, because it gives by far the best bang for buck visually and is much nicer to use than a German Equatorial for visual observing. I put up with equatorial mounts for imaging but I don't use them to look through.

So I photograph with this monstrosity...

... on which the gadget which gets the two scopes parallel cost half your budget  but I look through a Dob!

Olly

[spike95609]

For me, if you want to do visual and see a bit of everything then an 8" dobsonian is the obvious choice, as it's a great all-rounder and you get an awful lot of telescope for not much money. You won't be disappointed with its performance on planets, and it's powerful enough to pick up an awful lot of DSOs. Once you've got over the initial problem of collimating the thing (it's not as hard as is sometimes made out) then the only time it takes to set up is how long it takes you to carry the base and the tube outside. There's not much to go wrong with it after that; no motors, wires, or problems trying to get the go-to aligned - a few friends of mine have SCTs and know how to set them up, but it takes time, it always seems to go wrong, and I just think life is too short and the nights too cold to be messing around with all of that. An 8" dob needs collimating, it's almost 5 foot tall and bulky, could be thought of as a bit heavy, and if you don't have a go-to you'll have to learn a bit about the night sky and how to star hop to a target, but if you're comfortable with all of that then you won't beat the 200p on a performance to price ratio.

[ollypenrice]

12 minutes ago, spike95609 said:

For me, if you want to do visual and see a bit of everything then an 8" dobsonian is the obvious choice, as it's a great all-rounder and you get an awful lot of telescope for not much money. You won't be disappointed with its performance on planets, and it's powerful enough to pick up an awful lot of DSOs. Once you've got over the initial problem of collimating the thing (it's not as hard as is sometimes made out) then the only time it takes to set up is how long it takes you to carry the base and the tube outside. There's not much to go wrong with it after that; no motors, wires, or problems trying to get the go-to aligned - a few friends of mine have SCTs and know how to set them up, but it takes time, it always seems to go wrong, and I just think life is too short and the nights too cold to be messing around with all of that. An 8" dob needs collimating, it's almost 5 foot tall and bulky, could be thought of as a bit heavy, and if you don't have a go-to you'll have to learn a bit about the night sky and how to star hop to a target, but if you're comfortable with all of that then you won't beat the 200p on a performance to price ratio.

If I could click the 'Like' button ten times on this post I would do so.

Olly

[jabeoo1]

2 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

If I could click the 'Like' button ten times on this post I would do so.

Olly

& £600 of the £1000 budget is saved!   Even with upgrades of EP's & books etc you will still have a cool setup with plenty of change. 

[Louis D]

I didn't realize how heavy and unwieldy EQ mounts were to pick up fully assembled and move around to gain a better view due to line of sight obstructions until I looked at a mere 127mm Mak on an EQ3 mount.  With the counterweights attached, it was seriously heavy for such a lightweight scope.  I decided to go with an alt-az mount instead to save the weight of the counterweights.  I might change my mind on EQs if harmonic drives ever come down in price because they don't require counterweights or a meridian flip.

Please, find a well stocked astro shop and look at a few telescopes in person.  Make sure to try to lift them (with the salesman right there) to get a feel for their assembled bulkiness.  Another drawback of EQ mounts is people tend to haul out the larger ones in pieces because they are overwhelmingly heavy fully assembled.  If it becomes a chore to setup a scope, you aren't as likely to use it.  Solid tube Dobs come apart in two pieces making moving them simpler by contrast.

If I was going to plunk down that kind of money, I'd look for a nice used artisanal Dobsonian mount hand crafted from wood with large side bearings and a hand figured mirror.  They'll hold their value quite well.  I might also consider one of the lower cost 80mm to 100mm ED scopes on an alt-az mount.  If you stick to premium lines for both, you won't lose as much money if you decide to sell second hand as if you bought a high volume scope and mount.

[swamp thing]

16 hours ago, starbarkingduck said:

 

I'm not sure why she's so against them. It just doesn' have "the look" i guess. Its a shame cus i love the look of them and would go straight for the 250 with the synscan which I know would be incredible!

Thank you all again.

Remind her that scopes are for looking through not at. Besides, it will be dark when you use it anyway 

A telescope is an optical instrument not a household ornament.  

 

[Waldemar]

What is the most important part for your daughter?

looking 'at' it or looking 'through' it ... ?
I really think that in cases like this where knowledge is not available to her yet, and decisions may be made on looks, you should be the one who decides.
Once she has been looking through a nice size (go-to) Dobsonian, looks will not matter to her anymore.

edit: I must add that a non go-to will teach her a lot more about what is out there and where to find it, though in the beginning it will be a bit of a hassle, but much more rewarding. It will also boost her self confidence working with other (more advanced) scopes in the future. 

Understanding the where-abouts and being able to read a star map is a great plus.

[happy-kat]

The star discovery has the added advantage it can be used fully manual, or with tracking or with goto. You can literally pick and mix. Most goto mounts will not work without power.

A side ball... Eq5az the new mount and a ED80. One mount dual purpose and refractor can be used to look through or image with. Sacrificing aperture for dual use. Can't say I've used either but the thought occurred. Or that mount but with a larger reflector, if you want to image take the reflector off and just use camera gear you may already own.

[iPeace]

I would suggest that you start off with decent binoculars. They're easy and fun and get you started with realistic expectations. You learn a lot in a short time and the skills you acquire are invaluable for later on. A lot of the very best stuff can be at least glimpsed through decent bins and if it doesn't get you seriously hooked then you're that much wiser. If you do get hooked, your binoculars will continue to serve alongside any scope you may acquire.

P.S. this approach gets you very quickly to the core of this pastime - out there in the cold together, looking up, trying to find stuff - without the extra faff of the scope and mount. If you don't absolutely love doing it without scope and mount, then you know where you stand. If you do absolutely love doing it with binoculars, then later on one of you can at least have fun with the bins while the other faffs about with the new scope and mount to get the target in view.