Struggling to decide which ccd to go for!

[swag72]

I went with QSI and left Atik for a couple of reasons......

1) Far superior cooling ..... Atik was terrible.

2) All in one integration with wheel and OAG ..... Allowed me to use 1.25" filters and an OAG for the longer focal length scopes.

What I have since discovered is that build quality of the QSi is frankly superb .... I had the Atik 460 and QSI together for a short time .... The 460 reminded me of a baked bean tin in comparison to the QSI build.

Another thing...... was the returns to the US - I note that someone has said that there is now a QSI fixing centre in the UK though.... Didn't hear of that a couple of months ago.

Sorry i sound like a broken record!!!

[Jonk]

Ok, if you went with QSI for far superior cooling, why not Moravian (http://www.tringastro.co.uk/moravian-instruments-g2-8300-monochrome-ccd-camera-7935-p.asp) as theirs on paper is more (-50 degs)? Was it the fact their filter wheel needs 31mm and you didn't want to change?

As I'm startig fresh with no filters, wheel or oag in my possession, it may be easier for me to choose, so anyone have a reason not to look at QHY or Moravian?

[swag72]

Ok, if you went with QSI for far superior cooling, why not Moravian (http://www.tringastro.co.uk/moravian-instruments-g2-8300-monochrome-ccd-camera-7935-p.asp) as theirs on paper is more (-50 degs)? Was it the fact their filter wheel needs 31mm and you didn't want to change?

I already had the rather expensive 3nm Astrodon narrowband filters and they were NOT being changed.... end of .... so i had to work around them. The Moravian isn't an all in one OAG solution either, which the QSI is... and I wanted that as well. You can buy an OAG that will screw into the Moravian, but I wanted a one stop shop so to speak!

[Jonk]

Fair enough.

Having chosen the chip, now I need to choose the camera.

The other thing going for the Moravian is it's cheaper (not always a good thing), but it has a canon lens fitment built in. This is handy as I have a rather expensive canon lens + tele-extender, and a wide lens for milky way nightscapes so this may prove useful. I'm also thinking this would be brilliant for my timelapse work too.

What I'm waiting for is someone to say "nooooo don't get a Moravian or QHY for this reason etc."

It hasn't happened yet!

Moravian G2-8300 http://www.gxccd.com/art?id=374is winning this race at the moment!

[ollypenrice]

The Atiks I have had are the 16HR, two 16ics, two 4000s and the 11000. (That is a camera for the real real estate junkie!   )

I haven't owned the small bodied Atiks of which Sara speaks and the Peltier units vary from camera to camera but the cooling of the Atiks I've had has been excellent. I make a 'worst' of 15C here in the south of France and generally run at -20C. This out performs the SXVH36 mounted on a parllel scope and the Atik has dissicant chamber and window heater, both of which are important.

I've no quarrels whatever with Atik build quality. My cameras work very hard here, as you can imagine (but then, so do Sara's!) and I've had only two problems in the last ten years, both handled very quickly, efficiently and pleasantly by Steve, Vince and Rui at Atik.  I know that the QSIs are very nicely made but they have had to set up a re-call programme recently and one of my guests had to argue till he was blue in the face before they'd acknowledge a problem - which turned out to be real in the end. So I'm not convinced that QSI have a quality edge, really. However, on the 8300 chip the close fit of the filterwheel allows 1.25 filters and that is a major bonus, especially if you go for Astrodons (as you should for NB!)

I've always taken the 'Kodak and real estate' line but I must say that working on Horwig's recent M31 data, obtained at my place, did give me pause. It was seriously sweet.

Tom and I are so heavily into large mosaics that there is no turning back for us, though. A 30 panel is one thing, a 120 panel is another! 

Olly

PS I doubt that anyone will say 'Don't buy a Moravian.' They get a good press from owners. I promised to make no further comments about QHY till I'd seen some more recent ones and, since I haven't, I'm sworn to silence!

[Jonk]

Some high praise for Atik indeed.

Maybe a few years into the future I may invest in an 11000 or similar, as I don't see my interest or enthusiasm waning. Hopefully, time is on my side (37 now).

I really don't mind taking my time and doing mosaics etc. as most of the time is sat indoors playing with the data, and I'm usually glued to a pc most of the time anyway.

i will enjoy buiding an obsy when I move house in the next year or 2, so it's not just pointing and clicking that does it for me, it;s the whole electronic and mechanical side of things.

In my working life, I work in the critical power industry so certainly know how to handle suppliers and customers alike, but your points are noted.

I also had the feeling QHY were to be avoided, no idea why I think that but there we go.

Short term, I just hope to get images I'm proud to call my own, bearing in mind the plonk the mount in the garden when the stars are out approach!

As you may have seen, my progression the last year or so since I started isn't too bad I don't think, it's a hard thing to learn but I enjoy it, and that's important.

[johnrt]

There has been a lot of love for the Kodak chips on this forum recently, and I wouldn't go as far as to say "at the expense of the Sony chips" but certainly there is a move away from them in peoples thinking, and when you see the images that get turned out with these "old" chips you can understand why.

Mosaics are great in principal, I have no real urge to rush through targets and will in theory be happy to spend many an hour piecing together a 4 or 6 panel mosaic on one target. But what will test your patience is the fact most of the time here in the UK you just won't get enough imaging time to capture enough data to complete it, and no matter how committed and enthusiastic you are that will sap your will to carry on. If it's large nebulae and widefield vistas you want, get the biggest chip you can get your hands on.

Atik have UK based offices and are good on their after sales support, the lack of cooling "grunt" is rarely an issue, my 460ex cools to -15 all year round here in tropical Kent. Atik is where my money would be going.

[libraryman]

QSI do have a repair facility in the U.k. it is David Jackson, unfortunately David repairs only the boards Im led to believe, he has no clean room facilities so replenishment of Argon or other repairs have to go to America and QSI!

Ray

[strutsinaction]

QSI do have a repair facility in the U.k. it is David Jackson, unfortunately David repairs only the boards Im led to believe, he has no clean room facilities so replenishment of Argon or other repairs have to go to America and QSI!

Ray

I had to send my QSI690 to the US (last September) for the 'Sony glow' fix. To their credit, all costs including insurance were covered by QSI. Turnaround was about 3 weeks so no big deal really. However, that was for a recall fix. Carriage and insurance costs from the UK to the US for this camera would have been around £170 I seem to remember.

Regards

John

[Vox45]

However, on the 8300 chip the close fit of the filterwheel allows 1.25 filters and that is a major bonus, especially if you go for Astrodons (as you should for NB!)

I read a bit on the link provided by Jonk on the G2-8300 and I read :

"The CCD imaging area is somewhat larger that the clear aperture of standard filters in 1.25 inch filter cells. Such filter cells cause vignetting in the image corners. This is why the filter wheel with 6 positions is not offered with G2-8300 and filters for 5 positions filter wheel are not standard 1.25, but larger filters with 31 mm diameter. 31 mm filters do not cause vignetting on vast majority of optical systems, but they are significantly cheaper and more compact compared to 2 inch filters or filters in M48 threaded cells."

I feel like I am misunderstanding your statement, were you talking about the G2-8300 or any 8300 chips ?

Also, isn't like putting your eggs in one basket to have the filter wheel integrated ? If the wheel's electronic fails you also lose the ability to use the camera. That would make me nervous ... What are the gains of having an integrated wheel that would compensate the risk ?

[Jonk]

Good point on the filter wheel. The Moravian comes with internally fitted filter wheel or external, so I like this idea.

The downside is 'assembly on arrival' is not always as good as fitted internally.....or is it?!

I think my mind is made up now - thanks everyone for their input, I will see after Christmas what the bank manager will let me spend, then hopefully I'll be ordering.

The next thread (as a heads up) will be "which refractor arrggh!".

Cheers.

[DanL]

I went through the same trauma very recently and now own a Moravian G2-8300 (if only the weather would change!)

I decided on the internal filter wheel but I checked specs vs QSI and the spacing of the internal wheel from the sensor is the same. Like the QSI it is threaded for 1.25". Like the QSI it cools very well. Like the QSI it has low dark current noise (so I read!)

The only thing I could find that QSI does better is the internal placement of a larger filter wheel and integrated OAG options. The Moravian external wheel is quite large and is fitted slightly further away from the sensor. But it just has one connection to the camera for setting it up. Moravian also have a number of attachments for the front of the camera which you can easily swap out. I went for the short M48 fixing but you could add the OAG or one of the other options.

Overall, I considered it to be a good option and for me I was very happy to save £1000. The QSI certainly looks good. The Moravian is very... utilitarian. But it's the results that matter, right? [emoji1]

Just my two cents.

Dan

[ChrisLX200]

I went through the same trauma very recently and now own a Moravian G2-8300 (if only the weather would change!)

I decided on the internal filter wheel but I checked specs vs QSI and the spacing of the internal wheel from the sensor is the same. Like the QSI it is threaded for 1.25". Like the QSI it cools very well. Like the QSI it has low dark current noise (so I read!)

The only thing I could find that QSI does better is the internal placement of a larger filter wheel and integrated OAG options. The Moravian external wheel is quite large and is fitted slightly further away from the sensor. But it just has one connection to the camera for setting it up. Moravian also have a number of attachments for the front of the camera which you can easily swap out. I went for the short M48 fixing but you could add the OAG or one of the other options.

Overall, I considered it to be a good option and for me I was very happy to save £1000. The QSI certainly looks good. The Moravian is very... utilitarian. But it's the results that matter, right? [emoji1]

Just my two cents.

Dan

I think you understand the Moravian qualities well, they are kind of 'industrial' or 'science' cameras with little by way of unnecessary bells and whistles to attract the attention of buyers. Big, black, square lumps of machined alloy. No pretty red or blue casings here! That concept follows through all their camera designs - functional rather than pretty. However they appear to be both reliable and they do their job well.

ChrisH

[davew]

As a very satisfied user of Moravian products I suppose I can't keep quiet for ever

I think the major reason that Moravian aren't better known is that they don't advertise and as far as I can tell, never have. If a certain retailer who resides in the south west of the UK sold them they's go like hot cakes !

This forum is an Atik forum with a growing band of QSI ers. It used to be SX but they've been seen off in the main. Hardly anyone talks about what I would regard as probably the Premier camera maker, FLI, or even SBIG and Apogee. I would be fairly reluctant to buy from America due to the messing, expense and time of returns. With regard to Moravian being off shore, no one ever says they wouldn't buy a Baader product because it may have to go back to Germany eh ?

To the chips - The sony chips are good chips. They have a number of advantages over the Kodak / Truesense. Lower read noise, Higher dynamic range ( approx 73 db as against approx 70 db ) and higher QE ( At Ha line it's approx 65% to 50% ) Sara found that her Sony produced a better image with darks and as far as I can tell she's one of the few to have actually bothered to check 

The Kodak KAF 8300 is a whole lot bigger and calibrates out quite nicely. I have stopped using darks myself ( No idea why ) and use BPM and dither. That by the way only really gets rid of hot pixels and not any other noise a dark would get rid of. It's just as easy to reduce a Kodak chip instead of a Sony chip.

Filter size. Here's something you don't read about too often, the QSI version of filter sizes - http://www.qsimaging.com/qsi-683-most-versatile-ccd-camera.html Look under the " Less expensive Filters " section. You can use 1.25" filters with a Moravian and QSI, because I have done quite successfully, but I chose the 31 mm because I shoot with f 2.8 lenses. The external filter wheels normally require rather expensive filters. That alone saved me £ 90 per filter over the 36mm !

Cooling - The Kodak chip really does, in my opinion, require extra cooling, -20* to -25* will do but the Sony chip only needs around -10* Therefor if you buy a Sony chip, why would you want the extra cooling ? Doesn't come into it unless you live in the warm areas of the world. Like Sara. Due to the way the cameras are built I also firmly believe both the QSI and Moravian cameras are more thermally stable. The Atik one may well be too but I don't know.

Both Moravian and QSI have bolt on lens adapters. 

Just so it doesn't appear I'm a Moravian or QSI fan boy, I've owned, used and also been happy with, 2 SX cameras, 1 Atik camera and 1 Moravian camera. I've also used and viewed QSI files.

If I was buying one of these cameras today I would chose - Kodak - Moravian or QSI ( 683 not 583 ). I would not buy either an Atik or SX. If a Sony chip it would be Atik followed by QSI and SX ( Trius )

That lot won't have changed any one's mind but hey, it gets things out there 

Dave.

Just spotted the above posts. Black, rather like the FLI, looks damn good at night. In the dark. Outside. 

[Jonk]

These last 2 posts sum it up for me - it's the results that matter.

How many of you can see your shiny anodised red aluminium at night anyway?!

[johnrt]

These last 2 posts sum it up for me - it's the results that matter.

How many of you can see your shiny anodised red aluminium at night anyway?!

With the outbreak of exterior Xmas lights that might be more than you think!!

In all seriousness it's about results and after sales support. I wouldn't worry about my camera going back to somewhere like Germany or other European location, but I'd be more worried about it having to go back to America.

[Jonk]

Any return / warranty / repair / claim is looked after by the seller, not the manufacturer, so amy returns would be via the place it was bought from.

This is why it's important to buy from a reputable vendor.

[johnrt]

Any return / warranty / repair / claim is looked after by the seller, not the manufacturer, so amy returns would be via the place it was bought from.

This is why it's important to buy from a reputable vendor.

Indeed, but for general service and maintenance etc that will need to be via the manufacturer.  Buying from a vendor like FLO, they will swap a product no questions asked way after they are obliged to, but I'm talking more about wear and tear / servicing etc.

[davew]

Any return / warranty / repair / claim is looked after by the seller, not the manufacturer, so amy returns would be via the place it was bought from.

This is why it's important to buy from a reputable vendor.

In a few years time it will be down to you unless the retailer is a friendly helpful sort. I didn't buy my camera from 365 Astronomy but have been assured by Zoltan that he would look after me. I can also assure you that Moravian, Atik and SX reply to emails fairly quickly. The others may well but I've no personal experience.

Dave.

[ChrisLX200]

I would have bought my Moravian camera from FLO if they sold them, sadly they don't. In the end I got mine from Bern at Modern Astronomy and he worked hard to get me a good price which I appreciated very much, but he doesn't deal in Moravian products now and in fact no longer advertises them. That leaves just 365astronomy and, no offense to them, but I would rather deal with FLO if possible (hint).

I don't expect much by way of wear and tear, but I accept servicing (perhaps adjustments of bias voltages etc.,) may be required at some point. All electronics age and may need some tinkering over the years to maintain optimal function. My camera was left powered up and taking darks/flats to create libraries for 72 hours recently, never missed a beat. I do think the G4-16000 is a bit 'under-cooled' though and it may be a problem to maintain -20deg on warm humid nights, I'll have to wait and see what happens, but with it setup at 22-23deg indoor temps it struggled to get down to -20 which is a Delta-T of only -43deg, I would think a Delta-T of -50 is a minimal requirement for these Kodak sensors.

ChrisH

[libraryman]

I read something on the SGPro forum about Moravian cameras and the way they change filters when SGPro requires them too!

From what I read, Moravian software is a bit odd in that they will only rotate the filter wheel upon the start of acquasition as apposed to "prior to acquasition"!!

It's not an issue apparently but can be confusing it seems and caused someone to question the software!

I only raise this as a point of conversation since I have no knowledge of them being a QSI user!

If you plan to use SGpro it may be worth investigating!

Actually I am considering a new CCD myself for my reflector, this thread has interest to me since I was looking to buy another QSI but I may now look at Moravian!

Ray

[davew]

I read something on the SGPro forum about Moravian cameras and the way they change filters when SGPro requires them too!

From what I read, Moravian software is a bit odd in that they will only rotate the filter wheel upon the start of acquasition as apposed to "prior to acquasition"!!

It's not an issue apparently but can be confusing it seems and caused someone to question the software!

I only raise this as a point of conversation since I have no knowledge of them being a QSI user!

If you plan to use SGpro it may be worth investigating!

Ray

Ah .... Sow the seeds of doubt. Good tactic 

Dave.

[ChrisLX200]

I read something on the SGPro forum about Moravian cameras and the way they change filters when SGPro requires them too!

From what I read, Moravian software is a bit odd in that they will only rotate the filter wheel upon the start of acquasition as apposed to "prior to acquasition"!!

It's not an issue apparently but can be confusing it seems and caused someone to question the software!

I only raise this as a point of conversation since I have no knowledge of them being a QSI user!

If you plan to use SGpro it may be worth investigating!

Ray

Yes that caught me out when I first tried it, after being used to the wheel responding immediately (Atik EFW2) seeing the filter selection change and then the Moravian wheel do nothing was a bit unnerving ;-)  However, as said, it only moves at the start of the exposure, any delay in the start of the exposure is just added on to the end so you still get it all. I use SGPro and did have a problem with the camera ethernet ASCOM driver dropping connection to the camera during the cooldown phase but it has simply stopped doing that now. I have no idea why (or why it did it in the first place). Another issue is with memory usage - SGPro runs out of memory dealing with multiple targets and these huge files from 16803 sensor, I have a work-around but the underlying problem is still there. SGPro is not very clever at releasing unused memory.

ChrisH

[Vox45]

Just fell off my chair !

I was looking at the price of astrodon filters + Moravian Mono CCD Camera G2-8300 (filter wheel)

A 1.25" mounted H-a 5 nm Astrodon filters is sold 330$ (300€) in the US ... but 404€ in Europe *cough*

My initial *dream* was to get an Atik 414EX and H-Alpha / OIII / SII Astronomik filters ... It came up at 1400€ less than the Moravian + Astrodon ...

Now, at which point enough is enough ?   

[libraryman]

It can be and often is...an expensive hobby!

Ray