Hardware and software advice needed for upgrading to guided imaging

[Marky1973]

Hi Ian - I have not used the Altair set-up, but the webpage suggests it takes anything with a 1.25" nosepiece, which you do get with the ASI120, so it shoudl fit "out of the box" and the finder has a focusser so you should be able to adjust as necessary - if there are problems it may work with an extension tube, but I suspect it won't need one - Mike's picture above your post suggests not....but, as I say I have not used one.

I think the attraction with that set-up, because of the price, is just the ease of having it all in one place - hopefully, just buy it, screw it down and away you go.

Flexure....dammit, no one was supposed to ask! 

Actually, it is just about movement between the imaging scope and the guidescope. If you guide scope is loose and "flexes" on top of the scope you could have all sorts of problems with the guiding and retaining a guidestar....regardless of which set-up you go for, you just need to make sure the guide scope is fixed rigidly to the main scope to avoid this. Some of the smaller brackets may not be up to this but, at the same time, they are only light, so this may be less of a problem if you don't have strong fixtures on the larger ST80.

This is my simple take on it though - as I say, I'm making a lot of this up as I go along!

[Thalestris24]

Hi

FWIW I have a 60mm guide scope and it needs an adapter to reach focus with a qhy5l-ii mono. I find the SW 50mm finder optically better than the 60mm. Currently I have a TravelScope 70 bolted to my 130pds. The TravelScope makes an excellent guide scope and is noticeably lighter than the ST80, though also needs extension tubes (unless you use the diagonal). I got mine cheap back in the summer though the current price is still good value

Louise

[Uranium235]

Go with the 9x50, its a no-brainer. An ST80 with a 130pds is overkill (and you are inviting flexure).

[ianpwilliams]

It does seem that the 9x50 is the way to go. I guess I'll need an adaptor (I'll contact Modern Astronomy).

And it sounds like I'll need to adjust the objective lens to work with the ASI seeing as it needs doing when used with a Synguider. Hopefully that won't be too technical a job?

Are there any other modifications that I would have to make? If there's a lot that would need doing then is be tempted by the Astro instead, which sounds like it would be pretty much plug and play.

[Uranium235]

The only other modifications needed to a 9x50 is the bracket. It will need the slop taken out of it, or altenatively a proper set of mini guidescope rings - something a bit like this:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/finders/baader-mqr-iv-finder-holder.html

(thats the one I use)

To reduce any potential movement, remember to velco up all your cables to take any cable strain off the guide camera (the same goes for any AP setup really).

[D4N]

The Orion 50mm guide scope is about £70 and since it is designed to be a guide scope it should work with a guide camera straight out of the box.

I use an OAG myself but I wouldn't recommend that route unless you have a specific reason to as it is quite tricky to set up.

/Dan

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[ianpwilliams]

Ok so maybe the Orion guide scope (£80) might be worth considering?

http://www.scsastro.co.uk/catalogue/orion-mini-50mm-guide-scope.htm?gclid=CJfziMucz8gCFSIOwwodx5kHxg

The question with this one is whether I would need to buy a better bracket and/or those FLO tube rings (I'm sure those rings are good value like everything else at FLO, but I would be reluctant to part with £75 just for rings). I would hope that I wouldn't need a bracket or rings given that it's meant to be used as a guide scope like you said, but it would be good if someone could confirm that for me?

If that is the case then it seems like the Orion guide scope and ASI 120mm guide cam will be the way to go.

[Tinker1947]

One thing you can do with the guide rings is align the finder scope up so any star/dso you have centred is also in the centre of your FOV or Sensor, this will save a heap of test imagines, bring more productivity to anybody's imagine...

[ianpwilliams]

So would everyone recommend buying the tube rings regardless of whether I go with the 9x50, Orion, or Altair?

I'm not sure how the setup works when it comes to aligning the guide scope, but I assumed that I would need to make sure that the guide scope was aligned with the finder scope and the scope itself, and then hopefully after that I wouldn't need to keep making adjustments.

[cjdawson]

So would everyone recommend buying the tube rings regardless of whether I go with the 9x50, Orion, or Altair?

I'm not sure how the setup works when it comes to aligning the guide scope, but I assumed that I would need to make sure that the guide scope was aligned with the finder scope and the scope itself, and then hopefully after that I wouldn't need to keep making adjustments.

Actually, I'd not worry about trying to align the guidescope with the main optics.  I use an ST80 for guiding have found that as long as the scope is pointing in roughly the same direction as the main optics it'll work fine.

For example, Last time I was out imaging, my scope was pointing at M57, but the guide scope was trained on Vega.  The important thing with the guide scope is to get a star to guide on, not that it's in the same FOV as the object that you want to image.

[ianpwilliams]

Ok, so the 9x50 would need adjustment of the objective lens, a guide cam adaptor, and probably those tube rings.

So it's between the Orion and the Altair. With them being guide scopes I'm hoping that no objective lens adjustment would be required (or if it was required then hopefully it would be a simple task), and no adaptor would be needed either, is that correct?

The Altair is twice the price of the Orion so it seems like the Altair would not need the tube ring holder. Would the Orion need the tube ring holder?

[D4N]

The Orion guide scope has some adjustment built in. If you are guiding with a 120mm though I would be very surprised if there was no suitable star in the FOV. It is a very sensitive camera and even using the OAG I never have a problem locating a guide star.

Guide scopes are designed for guide cameras, unless you use something unusual nothing special should be required to achieve focus with one.

/Dan

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[ianpwilliams]

I'm thinking the Orion rather than the Altair. There are two versions of the Orion on SCS Astro, non-deluxe (£80) and deluxe (£130), which includes a focuser:

http://www.scsastro.co.uk/catalogue/orion-mini-50mm-guide-scope.htm?gclid=CJHGp6PA0cgCFQgcwwodsDoK5w

http://www.scsastro.co.uk/catalogue/orion-deluxe-mini-50mm-guide-scope-with-helical-focuser-13022.htm?gclid=CO7BhaTA0cgCFUafGwodtdkG0Q

It sounds like maybe the non-deluxe version would do the trick, is that right?

I'm still not sure if it would be necessary to buy the mini guide scope rings from FLO. If I were to buy them then I would prefer to buy the non-deluxe version of the Orion ideally.

[D4N]

Once it is focused you will probably never touch it again so I don't see how a focuser would be required. Even if the focus is slightly out this can actually be beneficial to the guiding rather than a detriment as it would be for imaging.

I normally set this type of thing up in the day by focusing on a far away object.

Just check with the supplier that it will work with your intended guide camera.

/Dan

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[ianpwilliams]

Ok ill check with SCS Astro that the Orion scope will work with the ASI120mm guide cam.

Although I can't access the SCS website on my iPod, because it takes me to a mobile site which is I available. I'll have to do it on the PC later instead.

[ianpwilliams]

There seem to be both monochrome and colour versions of the ASI120MM guide cam, with the colour one being cheaper:

http://www.365astronomy.com/ZWO-ASI120MM-Monochrome-1-3-CMOS-USB2.0-Camera-with-Autoguider-Port.html

http://www.365astronomy.com/ZWO-ASI120MC-Colour-1-3-CMOS-USB2.0-Camera-with-Autoguider-Port.html

Would it make any difference which one I buy? If it didn't make any difference then I could go for the (cheaper) colour one, because surely it would be better to have the colour version if using it for planetary imaging (for the monochrome one the website says With this monochrome version, you'll also need a filter wheel and a set of L-RGB filters or H-alpha and OIII filters, and maybe even H-beta and SII filters as well for narrow band astro photography)? Although maybe the monochrome one would be better for guiding?

Also, would anyone recommend one retailer over the other out of 365 Astronomy and Tring Astronomy Centre? The cameras are exactly the same price on both websites, and both websites have "ZWO" in the title bar, so it looks like they are both the same people.

[D4N]

The mono camera is best for guiding as it is more sensitive.

The mono camera will work fine for imaging and you only need a filter wheel if you are trying to get colour images of something that moves fast like Jupiter.

You will however need filters if you want to image with it, a basic set of colour filters is fine for planetary.

I bought my asi camera from TS teleskop-express.de but then I'm not in the uk.

/Dan

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[ianpwilliams]

Ok in that case I'll go for the mono ASI guide cam and the non deluxe Orion guide scope. Just need SCS to confirm that the ASI will be fine with the Orion, and then I reckon I'll go ahead and order them.

Thanks for the help everyone, I think it's safe to say that I'll be back with a new thread once I try to get my guiding setup to work and the panic sets in!

[Garethr]

Ian,

For what It's worth my two pennyworth would be why not get the colour version, these cams are good enough to guide with with the gain turned up but you get the bounus of a good planetary cam.

I use an old QHY5 through a 9 x 50 finder scope to guide and it works really well in as much as I can often see the "fuzzy" I am imaging but to get colour images  with that cam I would need proper filters to do the LRGB.

A cam that can guide and do some good quality planetary work would be my option

Gareth

[ianpwilliams]

I did think that myself at first, although I'm not so sure now. Thinking ahead, I'll attach my guide cam go my guide scope, then attach my guide scope to my main scope, and then I plan on securing the ST4 and USB cables to my guide scope. Then hopefully I can get focus in the guide cam through the guide scope, and at that point I'm hoping that I'll be able to keep my main scope like that all the time, including having the DSLR attached go the eyepiece holder. So that being the case I wouldn't be able to use the guide cam as a planetary cam as I would have to move it to the eyepiece holder to do that. So it seems to me that I'd be best off going for a monochrome cam which has a higher sensitivity.

However, I do have a webcam which I've never used, which was a free gift with my new PC. So maybe I could use that for planetary imaging, seeing as I'll have the laptop there anyway? I believe it's a case of video recording the planet and then stacking the frames? Having said that, when I took a photo of Jupiter using my DSLR it was just a tiny circle with dots for the four main moons (although I'm aware that a DSLR through the scope won't take decent planetary images, I just tried it to see what would happen). I'm guessing that a webcam would produce a better final image with colour and more detail etc, but would it be any bigger than in my DSLR image?

[D4N]

You will get a bigger image with the webcam because the sensor is much smaller than the one on the DSLR. The focal length of the scope determines the size of the light cone but with the DSLR you are seeing most of the light cone and with the webcam you are just seeing the very middle bit.

Some people actually use webcams as guide cameras, I've never tried that myself though.

/Dan

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[ianpwilliams]

That's a good point, I believe some people do use webcams as guide cams. Here are a couple of photos of mine. I don't know if it's any good or not. I'm guessing that there would be a fair amount of hassle getting it to work as a guide cam though. Presumably it would need some kind of adaptor to connect it to the Orion guide scope. And there's no ST4 port. But maybe I could use it through the eyepiece for planetary imaging further down the line.

[Tinker1947]

There is pulse guiding, i use it with a Lodestar this system only uses a USB lead CCD to PC, Ascom links the CCD to PHD and guiding works,,,,,

[ianpwilliams]

Sounds a bit out of my league. I think I'll go for the guide cam instead.

I also made the mistake of reading this very useful but also huge guide to guided imaging:

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/188777-phd-guiding-basic-use-and-troubleshooting/

I hope I'm not about to become hugely out of my depth with this!

[Tinker1947]

Ascom is simpley a background program, you install it and forget about it for pulse guiding roughly, you run PHD, select camera, click the Ascom button this brings a drop down menu with all Ascom kit shown, select your CCD (if it supports it) job done, its very easy not a black art.....