an article "what can you see with different telescopes"

[Michael11]

Hello all,

I've written an article for beginners, which illustrates what you should expect to see with different sized telescopes.

The illustrations are quite subjective, and they are based on modified planetary photos and sketches of deep sky objects.  

I would really appreciate any constructive feedback (inc. language issues  ). It was quite tough to generalize telescopes and astronomical objects to a few categories, and to represent the expected views accurately enough. Therefore I'm not sure I've done well enough.

http://www.deepskywatch.com/Articles/what-can-i-see-through-telescope.html

[Knight of Clear Skies]

Had a quick look and it looks to be a well written and informative article. The illustrations illustrate your points about seeing conditions well. However, I think your planetary images are very optimistic, for colour, sharpness of the image and size. I've seen Jupiter through a 12" dob at fairly high power, and it was small and monochrome.

I'll try and have a more in-depth read later if I can find the time.

[laudropb]

A very useful article for those starting out . I have recently went through this phase myself and I wish I had read your article then. Your photos do represent  what can be seen well and will greatly help in lowering the expectations of beginners. I would just hope it does not deter any from taking up the hobby. There are still many wonderful objects you can see out there.

Again well done for a very useful article

[Michael11]

Thanks for the quick reply. You might be right - I've resized the planetary images a bit, and reduced the saturation.

Regarding your 12" dob - It would require quite a lot of conditions in order to fully utilize its resolving power (like cooling, superb seeing, collimation, optical quality). Also I've seen jupiter in large refractors - and it showed quite a nice amount of colour.

[baggywrinkle]

Nicely done, but as mentioned above the planetary images are a bit too good as to what you would really see.

I can see you are  trying to keep it simple  but it might be worth mentioning in an easy manner focal length and how that effects magnification and how that affects what you can see in the night sky.

[Qualia]

Hiya Michael,

It's a superb essay and I think it will be really helpful for people joining this wonderful hobby. Indeed, it touches on one of the significant problems of stargazing, namely that many purchase some relatively expensive astro gear hoping to view almost Hubble like images only to feel a little let down.

My only concern echoes that of Knight, that perhaps the planet images are a little optimistic for general viewers. In my own experience it would be an extremely rare night that 400x would be possible, let alone with such detail, clarity and colour. In my 4" Tal 100rs - which is a reasonably good achro - and a medium sized scope according to the essay's description, on an average night of seeing, at a power of around 100x to 140x, I'm viewing Jupiter and Saturn along these lines:

     

Of course, I've been a tad pessimistic but I think that helps level new-comers expectations. Needless to say, if one is sketching, more detail and more detail can be picked up on and one can draw their sketch any size, but the immediate image size in the eyepiece is something like these images.

Please don't take any of this as a criticism, Michael. Your site in general, your sketches and wirtings have been a significant inspiration to me over the years. What you're doing makes for one of the best stargazing sites on the internet and a week doesn't go by when someone here at SGL doesn't make a link to your site. It is for that reason - the reason of admiration and respect - that I write this post.

Hope this helps a little and I hope we will see you as a regular contributor to SGL

[szymon]

It's a great article.  I agree the images may be a tad optimistic, but then my only real "dark site" experience was with an 80mm f/11 refractor, my big scopes are all used in LPLondon.

I also looked over the rest of your Web site and it's frankly superb, especially the guides to DSOs!  Many thanks for such a wonderful and informative site, it's gone straight into my bookmarks.

-simon

[RikM]

I can happily add my thanks for your wonderful site. I have been a long time visitor and think you done a wonderful job. Your sketches have been part of the inspiration for my own efforts

I would also echo the comments above, that while the detail visible in your planetary representations are about right for good quality kit and very good seeing conditions, they don't give a true sense of scale relative to the eyepiece view. Planets still look very small and far away even at 400x, which I can very occasionally use with my 10".

[Astro Imp]

A superb article but I would agree with the consensus above that the planetary images are a bit optimistic.

Please keep up the great work you are doing on your site, one I often visit and enjoy.

[Sirius Starwatcher]

Great article, The more these items appear on the forum the better chance people gave of realising the potential of equipment they wish to buy. I would like to see kore articles like this. Thanks for posting Michael

[Astro Imp]

Great article, The more these items appear on the forum the better chance people gave of realising the potential of equipment they wish to buy. I would like to see kore articles like this. Thanks for posting Michael

Have you seen Qualia's excellent article? http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/196278-what-can-i-expect-to-see/

[RichM63]

Hi Michael, a very interesting article, well written and easy to understand.

As per your feedback request;

I've used the email contact button on your website to send you a quick proof of one of the paragraphs.

hth,

Rich

[jetstream]

Michael, excellent sketches and depictions, great for use as a guide. I have used your site as a resource many times- thank you for having the info and sketches available. Under good seeing here I see pretty much what the sketches depict, you must have good skies there.

[RCompassi]

Nice article!

But the planets are waaay optimistic!

Saturn is white-yellow, with very, very faint colored bands (in my 12").

[Michael11]

Wow, thanks for all the feedback. I've been at a starparty, only came back now.

Regarding the planets - I guess you are right. After I get some much needed sleep - I will alter the planetary images.  I also could re-evaluate things after I had access to several different instruments under dark skies yesterday. DSO are right on the spot (tested 70, 127 and 250mm scopes on M13, snowball and M31), but Jupiter indeed was oltimistic a bit. at least for an average night.  

By the way in my opinion the examples some of you have given are true only for a night with average seeing. During those rare stable nights and with a good cooled telescope - you should see much more (I have at least). The question is - which case should I refer to in the article. 

Have you seen Qualia's excellent article?

Thanks for the link , definately worth reading. Though aiming for an average cheap 4" telescope the author is a bit pesimistic. A beginner who buys an 8" dob (which are really cheap nowadays) will see a lot more.

 would also echo the comments above, that while the detail visible in your planetary representations are about right for good quality kit and very good seeing conditions, they don't give a true sense of scale relative to the eyepiece view. Planets still look very small and far away even at 400x, which I can very occasionally use with my 10".

You are right. I just do not know how to show this, while keeping the images small. Maybe I will add some pop ups 

  but it might be worth mentioning in an easy manner focal length and how that effects magnification and how that affects what you can see in the night sky.

I will add it later on.

[Michael11]

I have updated the planetary images.

Now it refers to what you can expect to see during a night with average seeing.

[szymon]

Is that a night with average seeing out at a dark site?  Because it certainly isn't what they look like from LPLondon :-)

[Michael11]

They definitely do look like this from a foresty area I usually observe planets from. which is obviously not London

[Qualia]

Is that a night with average seeing out at a dark site?  Because it certainly isn't what they look like from LPLondon :-)

Me neither, Szymon

Furthermore, I'm not convinced you would witness better views of the given planets out in some dark site. I have found that there isn't any advantage in taking a 4" frac or 10" newtonian out to a dark site to observe Jupiter, Saturn or Venus than there is in viewing them from a roof top in some city. It makes no difference.

However, what does make a big difference to viewing these planets are stable seeing/atmospheric conditions and I have found that this 'seeing condition' is a rather ellusive term.

There can be found, for example, both in a city, town, village or out at a dark site, a kind of high altitude turbulence that can give the image a boiling effect. Another night, you could be viewing a really solid and steady image of Jupiter or Saturn but for some reason their features just seem a little soft, not nearly so pronounced as the night before.

Another night, both in the city and at a dark site, there may be noted a strong glare, a scattering of light around the planet that makes viewing a tad tricky. Then another night, for example, there are patches of very light mist over the late night/early morning sky and the image of the planet can be spectacular in the superlative. You'll even find that over a given evening, some of those more annoying seeing conditions will suddenly disappear and the image becomes steadier and sharper only to fall back down again a few moments or minutes later waiting to return again to sharpness and clarity.

To add even more madness to the cocktail, on occassion, I've been awake just as the glimpse of dawn is becoming obvious - both at a dark site and in a city - and for a very brief time the viewing of Jupiter or Saturn is as good as it was during the night sky! I cannot imagine a bigger light 'pollutant' than the Sun, but there it is - the image of Jupiter or Saturn remains as good.

Another thing I've noticed when viewing planets is that it isn't necessary to have my viewing eye dark adapted. It seems to work just as well for me that my Jupiter or Saturn eye is not dark adapted and I have found the same when viewing the Moon. In this case, every now and then I shine a white light torch and look at its reflection for a few moments and then go back to viewing.

These are certainly great puzzles from which I am learning but from many, many of hours of viewing planets, I can tentatively conclude that in my own case I do not want dark adaption for the eyes when viewing planets and light pollution in the form of sky glow makes no difference to me but that seeing/atmospheric conditions are the all too important factor.

Whether you're in the UK, France, Spain or else where, I'm sure these conditions remain generally uniform

Finally, in terms of seeing, the high level turbulence and transparency is going to be unaffected whether you are in a town or not. But it might be worth your time to head a little out of town when viewing planets in order to get away from the houses and factories etc. That is, out of the way of flues from central heating and heat loss from rooftops which will cause quite severe boiling in the field of view. It doesn't necessarily merit a long trip away from LP land, but being able to observe over some soft grassy fields rather than houses would hopefully remove this issue.

Hope this helps a little

[jetstream]

Light pollution doesn't hurt my planetary views, but the nuances of seeing can. Thermals (from whatever source) and anything suspended in the air that scatters light does for me though. Michael great update!

[jetstream]

They definitely do look like this from a foresty area I usually observe planets from. which is obviously not London

Michael, do you have room on the site for pics of poor seeing as well as the moderate and good? It would be awesome for comparison and may help folks strive for the best possible views ie thermal management, choosing conditions for high power obs etc. All 3 would be great.

My views have gone from poor mostly to really good now that a bit of knowledge has been gained (seeing considered lol!)

Great update Michael

[jetstream]

Me neither, Szymon

Furthermore, I'm not convinced you would witness better views of the given planets out in some dark site. I have found that there isn't any advantage in taking a 4" frac or 10" newtonian out to a dark site to observe Jupiter, Saturn or Venus than there is in viewing them from a roof top in some city. It makes no difference.

However, what does make a big difference to viewing these planets are stable seeing/atmospheric conditions and I have found that this 'seeing condition' is a rather ellusive term.

There can be found, for example, both in a city, town, village or out at a dark site, a kind of high altitude turbulence that can give the image a boiling effect. Another night, you could be viewing a really solid and steady image of Jupiter or Saturn but for some reason their features just seem a little soft, not nearly so pronounced as the night before.

Another night, both in the city and at a dark site, there may be noted a strong glare, a scattering of light around the planet that makes viewing a tad tricky. Then another night, for example, there are patches of very light mist over the late night/early morning sky and the image of the planet can be spectacular in the superlative. You'll even find that over a given evening, some of those more annoying seeing conditions will suddenly disappear and the image becomes steadier and sharper only to fall back down again a few moments or minutes later waiting to return again to sharpness and clarity.

To add even more madness to the cocktail, on occassion, I've been awake just as the glimpse of dawn is becoming obvious - both at a dark site and in a city - and for a very brief time the viewing of Jupiter or Saturn is as good as it was during the night sky! I cannot imagine a bigger light 'pollutant' than the Sun, but there it is - the image of Jupiter or Saturn remains as good.

Another thing I've noticed when viewing planets is that it isn't necessary to have my viewing eye dark adapted. It seems to work just as well for me that my Jupiter or Saturn eye is not dark adapted and I have found the same when viewing the Moon. In this case, every now and then I shine a white light torch and look at its reflection for a few moments and then go back to viewing.

These are certainly great puzzles from which I am learning but from many, many of hours of viewing planets, I can tentatively conclude that in my own case I do not want dark adaption for the eyes when viewing planets and light pollution in the form of sky glow makes no difference to me but that seeing/atmospheric conditions are the all too important factor.

Whether you're in the UK, France, Spain or else where, I'm sure these conditions remain generally uniform

Finally, in terms of seeing, the high level turbulence and transparency is going to be unaffected whether you are in a town or not. But it might be worth your time to head a little out of town when viewing planets in order to get away from the houses and factories etc. That is, out of the way of flues from central heating and heat loss from rooftops which will cause quite severe boiling in the field of view. It doesn't necessarily merit a long trip away from LP land, but being able to observe over some soft grassy fields rather than houses would hopefully remove this issue.

Hope this helps a little

Once again Rob, words of wisdom from a great observer. Getting good planetary views is a process.

[RikM]

Great update. That matches my typical views pretty well.

[itmo]

One thing to note that galaxy nuclei are relatively well seen even in light pollution. for example I can see all of the andromeda triplet nuclei always and easily regardless of LP, but the rest of the galaxies only pop visible in dark. M33 I cant see at all from here. 

[nicoscy]

A great article for those beginning the journey in this hobby. I am sure a lot of people begin this hobby after seeing images taken by Hubble in various magazines, only to be disappointed once they look through a scope.

I really like the comparisons of different magnifications and the general style of the article. the key feature is the extensive use of sketches. I feel that sketches are the best way to "transmit" to someone what is truly visible at the eyepiece as it does not "glorify" what you can see but is an accurate assessment which a photograph cannot represent to the same extend.

Well done and it goes in my list of essential links as a recommended article for beginners!