Am I being a pansy, or missing a great oppo?

[Moonshine132435]

So, pardon my ramblings, but I am in a light, nice-to-have quandry.

Recently I purchased my first scope (Skywatcher150p with an EQ5 mount). I actively chose a bigger mount to give me a bit of future proofing, and I made a concious decision not to get any tracking as I was keen to learn my way around the night sky. I suppose at the back of my mind I also had a vague concern that the true value of Deep Sky objects is in the awe of understanding what you're looking at and that takes time to develop; f I started of in this hobby with some sort of GoTo system, I'd spend a few weeks pressing buttons and looking at a variety of fuzzies, then the scope would be relegated to the back of the shed. I presumed that if you don't take the time to understand what you're looking at, then the grey fuzzies all look quite similar. One day I may graduate to astrophotography, but that day is a long way off yet.

So I've had a few chances to get the scope out, though with family and things not as often as I'd like. Those oppos I have had have been dogged by the same issues we all have; if you've got the time then the weather is poor, if the weather is good the moon is out, if the sky is clear and dark then it's a work night, same old same old, I'm not any better or worse off than any of us. In particular finding Messier objects has been difficult as I live with quite a lot of LP, though I'd have to say I have only had to opportunities to really look for them.

However, I might have an oppo to upgrade to a similar-sized Schmidt Cassgrain with full Go To (doesn't even need polar alingement) and capable of astro-photograpy, a system which would usually cost four times as much as my current set up.

So my conundrum: Do I stick with what I've got, work at it and develop my understanding and ability over the years and risk getting frustrated, or do I pay the money, upgrade and risk it all becoming too easy?

Nice problem to have I know!

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I have an SCT (8") which sits nicely on a Vixen GP mount (of which the EQ5 is a clone) with RA motor for tracking but no go-to. I have added a big (14x70) RACI finder (right-angle-correct image). This replaced the fairly poor 6x30 finder that came with the scope. This makes finding stuff a doddle, compared to the contortions (and occasional swearing) required by the 6x30. My object count has sky-rocketed since building that finder. I would much rather have that finder than ago-to system

[rob0971]

Personally I went straight for a GOTO system because I didn't want the hassle of finding what I wanted to observe or photograph. Although it takes time to align the mount, once set up I can be on a target in seconds & in this country with its weather as it is, that means a lot to me. Others will argue that its better to learn where objects are by star hopping, but I feel the time I have to indulge in this pass time is best served by maximising my imaging/observing time.

[D4N]

If your even considering astrophotography you really don't need to be worried about it getting too easy!

I think a lot of the Messier objects are going to be faint fuzzies when observed visually with that aperture. And if your light polluted you may not see any without a filter to enhance the contrast.

A Goto isn't going to help you see something that's not bright enough to see where you are.

Do you have a light pollution filter?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

Goto or no goto is a matter of personal preference. There's no right or wrong way of doing astronomy. I notice I am finding stuff while others are still trying to get their goto system aligned. Having said that, I have been finding stuff for a long time, so am quite adept at it. When I started out, goto systems were WAY to expensive to contemplate, so I spent more on aperture. I would not like to be without tracking, however.

For imaging, goto is useful, because some objects you might want to image are simply not visible in the scope.

[brantuk]

The two questions you really want to answer is 1. Do I want/need a 6" Sct, and 2. Do I want/need a goto system. There's nothing wrong with having either or both - but the decision will be influenced by what you hope to achieve.

I'd pick an Sct for it's long focal length and slow ratio to view primarily solar system objects. I might get a reducer to go with it to view dso's, but bear in mind the view will be narrower than a Newtonian due to the scope design. If I wanted to do imaging of dso's I'd certainly get an equatorial goto system - but I'd get something beefier than an EQ5 - probably HEQ5 or AVX for Scts or Newts of 6"+.

The opportunity to upgrade the way you're suggesting is only justified if it matches your needs/desires, so you really need to think out what you want to do, then get the scope/mount combo which satisfies that. As for the frustration and opportunity to observe/image (due to work/family/weather etc) - it's pretty much the same for everyone whichever rig you choose. Hth

[OscarTheGrouch]

I've just got my first scope too and did the same as you; avoided the temptation of GOTO.  I'm pleased with my decision and wouldn't want to upgrade or change anything at the moment (unless it was free and then I'd keep my existing set up too).  I shopped around and looked at what I thought would suit me and then bought it.  I knew I'd need to buy a camera adaptor and a few extra lenses (got 2x Barlow and 6mm lens in a charity shop because I was lucky) but that's all I'm spending out on until I've mastered what I have.

My 2p: Stick with what you've got until you absolutely know you've got to upgrade.  The money you were going to spend on the new scope can go in to a cash ISA (other savings accounts are available!!) for you to add in to as and when you have a spare £5.  Then, once you've decided exactly what the shortcomings of your existing set up are and how to best proceed, you'll have funds set aside to help.  Special offers and "friends who have stuff to sell" will come up again and again.  Don't jump at the first offer just because it looks too good!!

[barkis]

It's always a bit of a dilemma trying to decide which way to go.

If I'm anything to judge by, throwing money at an ambition is definitely no guarantee of success.

I have done that, and no small amount either. In fact It is criminal in my case, I built two two Obs. in tandem, to house two pier mounted

setups, and EQ6 Pro, with a MN190 , and a CG5 GT Pro, for my ED 80 Apo, or 6" f8 frac.

I recently sold my 12"  LX90 which was used often, but only for observing, which, when the skies permitted, were extraordinarily satisfying sessions.

I've done no Imaging though, which was something I enjoyed in the distant past, with equipment far less capable than what we have at our disposal these days.

The results were never all that inspiring, apart from fairly decent DSO results.

I certainly have not surrendered my intentions to do Imaging, in fact I'm duty bound to do so, otherwise, I will feel I've let some good people down, including my good lady,

who watched and wondered as I was spending loads of dough on all those strange objects being delivered in a seemingly never ending stream.

The rotten weather we are blessed with in the UK, and up here in the NW of England, bears some of the responsibility, but some other stuff too, is in the mix, including a little apathy.

So, what seems a load of drivel in relation to the OP's topic, has a little relevance, inasmuch as you get out of this way of life, (I always say this, rather than hobby),

according to what you put in to it. 

It pays to seek advice, and think long and hard before committing hard earned money to it.

There is ample evidence on SGL's Imaging boards of the capability of this forums Imagers. Some of the results they achieve are nothing short of spectacular,

Remember though, it isn't just the equipment they bought, It's the skills they have developed in the collection, and manipulation of the data they capture too.

Not an easy path, but achievable, just never assume it's a given.

Just a few things to think about that might help to formulate your future plans.

Good luck anyway.

Ron.

[IanL]

As for whether you should star hop or goto for visual, that's only a question you can really answer.  It's not a dilemma for us oldies who didn't have any option but to do it the hard way; we've earned our stripes and feel no shame in using goto systems if that's what we want.  There is satisfaction in finding an elusive target through your own skill and patience, but there is also plenty of frustration and failure too.

When it comes to AP, it is (in my view) crazy to eschew goto.  Everything is so hard that you really do not need to add 'can't find the target' to your list of problems.  In fact, with the advent of plate-solving software I just set up and polar align the mount, click on what I want to image in the planetarium and let the computer sort out where it is.  You do a surprising amount of re-finding of the target anyway, e.g. slewing to a bright star to focus and then back again, re-framing of the object, dealing with meridian flips, etc.  Spending 10 minutes (or more) each time checking I am still in the right place in the sky would waste half the usable imaging time.

I'd also be cautious of the 'Capable of astro-photography' statement.  Long focal length scopes are good for planetary and Lunar imaging, but they're not an easy route in to deep sky objects like galaxies.  Hard to find the target (even with goto and plate solving), slow optics needing many more/longer exposures and needed really accurate guiding.  Guiding an SCT is even harder due to the moving mirror design which tends to cause guiding problems unless you use an off-axis guider (which themselves are hard to set up and use for a beginner).

I would caution against buying an SCT if your primary objective is to image DSOs as a beginner, you'd do better with a shorter focal length refractor and guidescope.  On the other hand I love my 8" for lunar and planetary observing and imaging (and it certainly managed to snag a fair few small galaxies visually by star hopping - felt no guilt when I re-mounted it on a goto NEQ6 ).

[CSM]

I would say upgrade, especially if you have light pollution and can afford it.  Having a GOTO system DOESN'T mean that you won't learn your way around.  Indeed, it could well help you and save you a lot of time and frustration.

[laser_jock99]

Due to the time and weather limitations we seem to have- I would advise most people to use a GOTO mount. Learning your way around the night sky is a noble cause, but not altogether necessary these days.  

[MattJenko]

Buy a copy of 'Turn Left at Orion' which goes through finding the various objects in the sky as the months go by. I have found it a great way to start discovering the heavens in a very easy to use manner, with a large layout showing finderscope + telescope views for both refractor + reflector views, and it also has binder type rings for practical use so you can have the book open flat. If you did have a goto, you could use it to get to the listed starting points (the main magnitude zero stars normally) and then try and find the various objects from that point onwards, and then if you are getting frustrated or even are not sure if you are even looking at the right star, you could use the goto to confirm.

[MattJenko]

I don't have a goto by the way and fully understand the desire to get to know the sky rather than just press buttons, look for 10 seconds and press some more buttons. However, I actually wish i did have one to confirm what i am looking at sometimes, or just to eliminate 30 minutes of maddening sky wandering between Vega and Altair looking for the next guide point!

[wuthton]

If you have even the slightest intention of of some astrophotography then you should forget alt az fork mounts, stick with an equatorial.

[Carbon Brush]

I was faced with a similar choice some years back and chose a shed instead. My best astro spend ever.

A roll off shed, or other type of observatory, generates time.

Your kit is already set up to go (to or not goto) and ready chilled. No setup time.

At the end of the session, put the roof back and go inside.

This means shorter 'take a quick look ' sessions are easier.

Just my 2 pennorth.

David.

[OscarTheGrouch]

I would say upgrade, especially if you have light pollution and can afford it.  Having a GOTO system DOESN'T mean that you won't learn your way around.  Indeed, it could well help you and save you a lot of time and frustration.

There's nothing wrong with a little frustration now and then - I find it gives me an excuse for being a grumpy old git!

[LukeSkywatcher]

I have a fully auto Go-To 8 inch SCT and i still mainly only star hop with it. I do use the tracking on it for observing the Moon and Planets. I did learn the hard way to navigate the night sky (star hopping), and the habit has stuck with me over the yrs.

I love "the hunt" of locating objects manually,rather then the instant gratification that Go-To offers.

It really is all depending on how you want to go about things.

[Moonshine132435]

Thank you all for your responses; there's clearly a lot of experience here on both sides of the fence. Some of the salient points for me are:

- upgrading your kit will make better use of your time, but it won't create more of it. I'll still have the same amount of time at the eyepiece and that's probably one of the biggest limitations right now.

- I live in a  light poluted area and though a GoTo system will give me more confidence I've found something, it won't make it any prettier to look at

- I've spent the best part of a thousand pounds in the last half year, and this upgrade will easily cost another 60-70%; this won't be the last good deal I'll ever see.

- on the pro side, upgrading to a full GoTo will make better use of the little time I do get to spend at the scope, and perhaps make it slightly less frustrating when I'm bimbling around the sky wondering where all the way points listed in Turn Left are.

At the very least you've all given me some excellent and different points of view so I can think on this a little more before throwing money at it. Thank you.

[OscarTheGrouch]

We'll all be interested in hearing what you decide, so please come back and let us know!

[Moonshine132435]

After some encouraging words from Charlie_starz and a conversation with my wife I've decided to stick with my rig for a while longer. Much of the joy is in the journey not the destination and I suspect opportunities to spend a thousand pounds in an upgrade won't be too scarce in the future.

None of which stops me looking at "my" new scope on the internet and salivating..

[RichM63]

Moonshine I now have GOTO and tracking possibilities on both my rigs, just a question of deciding what I want to use in the time available.

However I find that it is about 50/50 whether I setup the full kit or simply take out the EQ3-2 and run in manual hand control with no electronic aids at all.

GOTO is great but it is not always an asset for spontaneous star gazing.

As regards learing the sky or not, now we have nice warm evenings I'm finding it quite pleasurable to take the binoculars, laptop, and a Stella or two and fire up Stellarium and then try to locate certain objects in a very relaxed manner without the hassle of a full blown planning session.

I think it is all about enjoyment and not being over stressed about did I really see NGC 6926 or 6929, I'm not a pro' astronomer so can happily look at something beautiful without really knowing exactly what it is at the time. (can always make a note to check back with Stellarium later).

Not related to your original post, but if you have a little cash to spare, then a couple of upgraded EPs will make a big difference.

[brantuk]

You could improve your current rig just by adding a tracking motor to the RA. You'll still be able to search for stuff manually plus have the convenience of not having to track. It really makes the observing experience much more comfy and you could even hook up a webcam for a spot of planetary imaging if required - all very cheaply.

[CSM]

There's nothing wrong with a little frustration now and then - I find it gives me an excuse for being a grumpy old git!

I am too old and haven't the time to do even that.

[Moonshine132435]

A good tip Rich, thanks. I've already added on a Vixen 12mm NPL and have the 6mm coming (which is about the max magnification my scope can handle anyway). I'm toying with the idea of the 25mm Vixen NPL just to complete the range of good EPs at the wider end.

[RichM63]

Ah I see that you have updated your sig'.

I went a slightly different path, in that the supplied 25mm is not that bad, and so my first EP purchase was the 2" 32mm WA.

For sheer immersion and getting lost with my feet on this planet whilst my head is light years away, it was the best thing I did.

The 32mm has become my default for star fields.  

Also, good choice on the 6mm length, just because you will be able to, Barlow it up to everything you've got and gawp into Moon craters.

Have fun,

Rich