Any M51 tips?

[Orange Haze]

Hi all. So last night, after hours upon hours of fruitless searching over the last year or so, I finally found the Whirlpool Galaxy. Took a lot of patience but I did manage to identify the unmistakeable cores of two galaxies side by side.

However, no wonder it took me ages to find, a very faint fuzzy indeed and I have to say, a bit of a letdown. I was unable to glean even the slightest detail. Has anyone managed to get any sight of spiral arms from M51? And if so, could you tell me how you did it?

I was using the 28mm MV eyepiece when I found it. Seeing was ok and the moon was not too close.

Frustratingly yours......

[jambouk]

Which scope were you using? Were you in a dark sky or a light polluted back garden? What was the transparency like? How dark adapted were your eyes? How old are you eyes? How much moon was on show?

I can't remember what magnitude it is reported as, 8-9 probably, but the arms themselves will be much nearer magnitude 14 (i guess) and you are always going to struggle to see them clearly unless all of the above are at their best, even with the biggest of the commercially available scopes. I looked at it with my C11 and had a similar experience to you, a faint smudge, though i do live near the city and for M51 i am looking towards the city.

I'd say optimise what you can in the above list, but other than that i'm not sure there is much you can do.... Is your newtonian flocked inside; that apparently may help with improving contrast if you don't live under really dark skies.

Good luck and add it to your messier list on your signature

James

[Orange Haze]

Hi James, appreciate the reply. I suppose after so much searching I was hoping for a decent reward, alas no.

It was around midnight it so it was fairly high in the sky but slightly towards more light polluted skies. Plus there was a hint of mist in the air which won't have helped at all. Having been out for several hours my eyes were about as dark adjusted as they can get.

I will persevere, now I know where to point the scope. Just didn't know if other EPs were better galaxy hunters or whether I should be dabbling with filters.

[Siriusmeg]

The Moon wouldn't have helped either, pretty bright last night and getting brighter for a week.  The key this is that now you have found it, it will be easier to find next time      It's one I return to as often as possible,  and it's amazing how different it looks under different skies.  Keep at it  

[jambouk]

Ah, i have no idea about those questions, wait for someone clever to comment.

I suspect though it won't get massively better; look at the images people get of M51, the spiral arms are still faint and that is after 3 hours or so of solid data collection, so just imagine how little light your retinas will receive in a fraction of a second as you look up the scope.

Someone should invent an app (they may have already done so) where you plug in your scope, eye piece, object you are looking at, indicate how much light pollution there is, adjust the transparency, and it shows you what you might see visually looking through the scope - there would be lots of misty patches! But at least it would be more realistic.

I'll watch what others say.

Good luck and well done for finding it.

Jd

[Matt Scunthorpe]

Try looking at the sketches part of the forum for views of what you will see at the eyepiece against photographs.

Matt.

[Paul73]

One word. "Moon". May as well have a streetlight shining into your scope!

Half the battle is finding it with confidence. Have a go on a moonless night. Give if 5 mins at the eyepiece for you brain to sort out what it is seeing.

I can get the two parts and hints of more detail on a really dark night from my garden.

You've got the kit.

Paul

[Stu]

Dark sky, dark sky and dark sky, that's all I can say!

I never bother with M51 from home, just gets horribly washed out, that's if I can see it at all!

Get to a dark site however, and the views will be better. I have seen it easily in 15x50 binos under a good sky, and you will get more detail visible with some aperture.

There is a view that a 2mm exit pupil is good thing to aim for for DSO observing. This gives a darker sky background and so improves the contrast.

Stu

[jambouk]

Stu, that is useful info about the 2mm exit pupil, thanks.

Jd

[Mike73]

Yep as others have said its all about the dark skies.

You can spend a fortune in this hobby and buy a huge scope but it wont help if you put it in LP skies, theres no magic EP or filter you've just gotta put some fuel in your car and get somewhere dark.

Seeing any kind of structure in galaxies is still tricky even under those dark skies, experience is also the key here.

Just keep at it Lee, the more time under the stars you get the easier it becomes.

[Orange Haze]

Brilliant, thanks all for your comments. I suppose I should be grateful for just having clear skies at the moment! Plus it wasn't even that cold last night. I suppose when you expect one sight and get another, you start to doubt your kit a bit. Although I wasn't expecting much, just a tiny hint of structure within the smudge would have made my night. My expectations have moved a long way since I first took up the hobby.

I've always been keen to get my scope out to Dartmoor where dark skies are a plenty. Back gardens aren't the best I know. Now I am getting better at finding the little devils, perhaps that dartmoor trip is a bit closer.

Thanks again.

[Stu]

It's certainly worth the trip, you'll be amazed at the difference.

My best viewing during the year is always when I go to the Purbeck peninsula in Dorset camping with the children. The Milky Way is bright overhead with dark rifts running through Cygnus. M31, the Double Cluster and on occasion M13 are naked eye objects. With an OIII filter, I can see the whole of the Veil in my 4" apo, and also the North American Nebula. It's fabulous!

Stu

[swamp thing]

As others have said a dark sky is absolutely mandatory for successful galaxy observing. Even then transparency can foil you.

It's pretty rare to get ideal conditions in this country, but if you keep at it one day you will and no astro image ever taken can come close to seeing those spiral arms with your own eyes. It's a view you'll never forget.

[ronin]

I suspect we see too many images from hubble, and false expectations creep in.

If you look at the list of messier objects every one of them is coloured, yet in reality we see no or little colour in any.

The one we might see colour in half easily appears to be M42 and people say a slight hint of green, so why is every image deep and high contrast red?

[John]

Under dark skies I've clearly seen the spiral structure in M51 with a 12" scope. From my back yard it varies from two rather indistinct blobs to extended objects but not quite showing the spiral structure, with the same scope.

In summary, dark, dark skies make a HUGE difference to galaxies.

[Mike73]

I've always been keen to get my scope out to Dartmoor where dark skies are a plenty. 

I've observed from Dartmoor a couple times, it gets pretty cold up there and it can get windy so if you do try it up there pick a night with zero wind and you should be fine, NELM of around 6.3 which is what you need.

[scarp15]

All the above and permit your eyes to become fully dark adapted. 

[Orange Haze]

I've observed from Dartmoor a couple times, it gets pretty cold up there and it can get windy so if you do try it up there pick a night with zero wind and you should be fine, NELM of around 6.3 which is what you need.

At risk of making myself sound like a numpty, NELM??

[Mike73]

At risk of making myself sound like a numpty, NELM??

I think we've all asked that question at some point so your either on a forum full of numpties or its not a numpty question, I prefer the latter.

NELM is basically seeing what the faintest star is with your naked eye. Naked Eye Limiting Magnitude.

http://www.project-nightflight.net/limiting_mag.pdf

Edit; 

[jetstream]

A while back I managed to see the spirals in M51 under very dark sky 21.8 mag,NELM 6.3+ and using a 10mm eyepiece that gives about a 2mm exit pupil.This is as dark it gets here I imagine(we'll see when snow goes) and the sky transparency is a huge factor seeing details like this.My view of the spirals was not stunning,no wow moment but they were there.Actually M33 gave a better presentation of its arms for me when it was high in the sky....very big galaxy in the eyepiece.Perseverance is a good thing,and so is knowing when the sky conditions will increase your odds of seeing DSO details.

I love looking at the moon but it is a DSO killer

[Stu]

All the above and permit your eyes to become fully dark adapted.

That's very true, it makes a significant difference. When viewing the Veil, even half an hour after looking at a mobile screen I was still not full adapted. The following night with identical conditions and no mobile, I was able to pick out far more detail. Well worth avoiding any form of mobile or tablet and just using good old fashioned maps and red torch. I makes a significant difference at a dark site.

Stu