A night(mare) to remember. Chalk it up as experience!!

[M00NMonkey]

Hi all you SGL-ers.

Where to begin? Hmm....at the beginning I guess.

Well, last night was the clearest I have seen, since forever. The clouds had finally departed and the stars were starting to peer through the last gasps of the days sunlight.

It was around 8pm-ish and I slowly started to set up my gear, with the intended image target being M51. It had been nearly 2 months since my last setup, so took it slow to make sure everything was present and correct, and I think it was my smoothest set up so far. Balanced perfectly, and alignment seemed spot on. All good so far! (except the fact that I hadnt realised I needed a different adaptor for my new SW coma correcter, so it stayed snuggly its it box until FLO deliver the adapter I immediately ordered)

I stood around gazing at the sky waiting for the true veil of darkness to come and imaging can begin. I spend this time learning all the constellations on view, and building on my knowledge of the layout of the sky. Once I had true darkness I aligned the scope to jupiter for a finderscope test and realignment and to check Dslr focus using a bahtinov and was set perfect. Again, some more were learnt and still all good so far.

Now, I know exactly where M51 is, though I have never looked for it. I adjusted the scope so I had Alkaid in the finder. Took a quick snapshot in BYE and it was centred perfect. Then I found what i assumed to be 24 CVn, (I was using stellarium and turn left) Again, centred. I then moved to what should have been M51. took a 5sec iso 6400 snapshot to see if I had the galaxy in frame. Nothing but a starfield.

To cut a very, very long story short. I spent the next 4+ hours making tiny adjustments and taking snapshots to try and find this elusive galaxy. I was also taking off the Dslr, unscrewing the T mount adapter and fitting it back to the 1 1/4" EP adapter so I could also search visually too. (I made about 4 change overs with this adapter!! Really annoying having to do this. Is it possible to buy another one of these. Had a quick search online and couldnt find what I was looking for??)

So, this went on and on until I was cold to the bones. I then, whilst looking for the redlight, managed to put my foot between the side supports and top, tripped and nearly broke my leg. Luckily the plastic the stool was made from wasn't as robust as my tibia, and broke before my leg did.

I will admit the red mist was beginning to make itself present at this point. I say red mist but I guess I mean dispair, which to my mind is the most useless, unhelpful of all emotions!. Anyway, I decided to change target as the skies were still clear. This time it was the Leo triplet. But on literally turning my scope to face the constellation of leo, everything, and I mean everything, Fogged up. Finder, all EP's and didnt even bother putting the camera back on to try a few snapshots. So I figured it was a sign to call it a night. Probably a good idea as I was freezing cold and my leg was begging not to be walked on, so I packed up.

All in all, apart from the setting up, I had a pretty bad night. No data captured and back to the endless cloud this country loves to give us.

So, I guess I am asking what I should've done different? or what was I doing wrong?

I am looking at joining an astroclub, but the thing is, is they are usually only one night a month and to have a clear night on this one meeting, well, not likely to happen. I know there is a lot of theory to learn, but I can do this anytime, doesnt have to be night and I am a more practical minded person so I thrive on hands on experience.

I guess I have been spoilt by M42/43 and M31 being so easy to find, but now these are slowly sinking below the horizon, is it always going to be this hard to find things??

Anyway, thanks for reading. (and please-- no mention of mount upgrades-- I know-- but im in no mood for it today thank you)

ATB

Jez

[carastro]

Hmmm, I have had similar nights in the past. I had a mount which did not GOTO accurately and spent many an evening trying to find said object and having to give up on some of them. My turning point came when - wait for it - I bought an NEQ6, this was so accurate by comparison I have hardly ever had a problem since.

Do you have a GOTO mount? It looks from your signature description like you have a tracking only one though I am not familiar with the EQ5. I have found M51 manually, but it is VERY faint and the first time I found it I was doing the same as you, taking a shot and moving, and when I actually got it I almost missed it. You need to do at least a 30 - 45 second exposure to be able to identify it in the FOV. It could well be you found it but like me didn't manage to identify it. Did you keep those shots where you were trying to find it. Might be worth going back and looking again.

As you did - turn up the ISO whilst hunting for an object.

I can't imagine how difficult it must be trying to use a non GOTO mount if that is indeed what you have.

Carole

[M00NMonkey]

Hi Carole, Thanks for the reply.

No, I dont have GOTO. It is the basic EQ5 i have upgraded with motors for tracking.

Although from my OP it may not sound like it, but I like and want the challenge of tracking these objects myself. I want to actually learn the sky and know and understand how to move around, confidently identifying as I go.

The thing with GOTO, although it would speed up the process of imaging, I wont really be learning the sky because I will just be aligning with stars I already know, and then the mount will find whatever DSO etc. I would feel I am cheating my way up the astronomy and AP ladder, and it would leave me with a feeling of lesser achievement. If that makes sense. This is just how it would make me feel.

You say that I would need 30sec+ snapshots to locate M51. Does this mean it isn't visible to the observer? As I mention, I was using turn left and this gave me the impression that i should at least see a fuzzy smudge just observing at low mag. Is this not the case?

I did go over the snapshots once I had packed away and I didn't see anything that resembled what I was after so I binned them. I was very cold, tired and in pain so that may have led me to overlook it.

Apart from a very generous charitable donation, the NEQ6 is not an option for me. My set up is what it is, and I want to learn to use it to the best of my/and its ability. Even if I had the NEQ6, i would still want to find things manually, so would be at the same place, not knowing how to find certain objects.

I did do all my research on how to find these objects. and followed turn lefts way of star hoping, exactly how stated, and every other variant of how to read the charts, even though I knew these ways were wrong, just to double check. When I am not totally sure, I start to second guess myself. Which inevitably ends in utter confusion.

This hasn't put me off anything, in anyway, and like the title suggests, I am chalking it up to experience. The next clear night I get, i will be out trying again, (maybe with slightly warmer clothes and a better sense of where I left the stool in the dark). I will basically try the same methods as before but with longer exposure snapshots.

The definition of success = standing up one more time, than you fall down. and as long as my legs can take it, I am game.

Clear skies

Jez

[jbk44]

These are the sort of nights we all learn the most from ,and I've had plenty of them too.

I do however thing it's great your not using a goto, you'll probably learn more in the end from not having a goto, and when you eventually do get goto you'll find it so easy.

I use a goto and find that frustrating... Sometimes I shout at my EQ6 the same way I shout at the washing machine while trying to open the locked door.

[steppenwolf]

I applaud your use of the basic EQ5, I used to image with a non-GoTo EQ6 and star hopping with a camera connected can be a little frustrating at times. I think you may well have located the galaxy but not captured sufficient light to recognise it - did you adjust the levels in Back Yard EOS to increase the brightness/contrast sufficiently? M51 is somewhat dimmer than M42 and M31 so some tweaking after test capture may well be required to discern it. I would also increase the exposure time to 20 seconds.

Good luck, I hope your leg gets better soon!

[lensman57]

Hi,

I suffered a similar fate a couple of nights ago, super clear skies at about 1 am for my first ever serious attempt at M81, M82 and M51. I managed the best polar alignment ever on my EQ5 SynScan, Set the Canon 1000d and set APT for 20 exposures at 90s. The mount tracked perfectly for a change, none if any star trail as the mount is still unguided. After 4 hours in the cold and over 120 exposures I came in . The next day a huge amount of profanities at myself and the APT, the images captured were all in jpeg not raw , totally useless.

Last night the same set up but the APT had the correct setting, 3 test exposures later and loads of star trail at 90s, the mount was behaving eartically again. Lots of cursing and then I packed up and came in for a hot cup of tea and a chocolate.

The attached thumbnail is the poor result of my first night of serious imaging, very poor indeed. You have my sympathy.

Regards,

A.G

[M00NMonkey]

I applaud your use of the basic EQ5, I used to image with a non-GoTo EQ6 and star hopping with a camera connected can be a little frustrating at times. I think you may well have located the galaxy but not captured sufficient light to recognise it - did you adjust the levels in Back Yard EOS to increase the brightness/contrast sufficiently? M51 is somewhat dimmer than M42 and M31 so some tweaking after test capture may well be required to discern it. I would also increase the exposure time to 20 seconds.

Good luck, I hope your leg gets better soon!

Hi Steve. Great book BTW. Although I hold it personally responsible for everyone telling me to upgrade my mount I digress.

Yes, star hopping with the DSLR attached can be very trying, but I had not come across this until last night because my targets were m42/m31 and like you say, these are a lot brighter than m51. I honestly had no idea it would be so faint to need a 20sec sub just to find it though. Inexperience cost me there. I do feel that I was mislead partly by 'turn left' giving the impression of what I should see, but again this was how I interpreted the data, so another lesson learnt and I am not going to "blame my tools"

I did a lot of research on what kit to get and I am very happy with everything I have, and I had already prepared myself for the mount being on its limit and only being able to do limited exposure times due to it being unguided etc, but it never crossed my mind i would struggle so, with finding objects.

As for the levels in BYE. I have only used it 3times, including last night. The weather really hasn't been kind for those of us who stare into space. And, consequently, lacking in time spent using it, I didn't realise you could adjust the levels. I will investigate this and find out what I need to do. Thanks for pointing this out!

Next time out I will continue the search for this infamous Messier, if nothing else my adventures last night have made even more determined to find and image it. As an added bonus, FLO shoud've delivered the adapter to connect up the coma correcter by then too.

Thanks

Jez

[M00NMonkey]

Hi,

I suffered a similar fate a couple of nights ago, super clear skies at about 1 am for my first ever serious attempt at M81, M82 and M51. I managed the best polar alignment ever on my EQ5 SynScan, Set the Canon 1000d and set APT for 20 exposures at 90s. The mount tracked perfectly for a change, none if any star trail as the mount is still unguided. After 4 hours in the cold and over 120 exposures I came in . The next day a huge amount of profanities at myself and the APT, the images captured were all in jpeg not raw , totally useless.

Last night the same set up but the APT had the correct setting, 3 test exposures later and loads of star trail at 90s, the mount was behaving eartically again. Lots of cursing and then I packed up and came in for a hot cup of tea and a chocolate.

The attached thumbnail is the poor result of my first night of serious imaging, very poor indeed. You have my sympathy.

Regards,

A.G

Hi A.G

Sorry to hear of the Jpeg/raw mix up. Yes that would be infuriating! I think the shear lack of clear skies makes everything a rush, no matter how prepared, when the stars finally come into view. This leads to little mistakes that end up a massive problem.

On a plus note: Congratulations!!! at least you found the little blighter!

ATB

Jez

[lensman57]

Hi A.G

Sorry to hear of the Jpeg/raw mix up. Yes that would be infuriating! I think the shear lack of clear skies makes everything a rush, no matter how prepared, when the stars finally come into view. This leads to little mistakes that end up a massive problem.

On a plus note: Congratulations!!! at least you found the little blighter!

ATB

Jez

Hi Jez,

Thanks mate, I find it is a lot easier for me to manually find the DSOs with a 15 X 70 binocular than my mak 127 or the wide field scope, I think the only real solution is a well aligned large aperture guide scope.Some folks like Telrads for star hoppping, other than that it is GoTo mount so I guess now you are budgeting for an HEQ5 pro SynScan, better spread the word around before your next birthday.

Regards,

A.G

[x6gas]

the images captured were all in jpeg not raw , totally useless.

Well not totally useless. You can still stack the jpegs, but the quality won't be as good...

[x6gas]

Sorry to hear you had a frustrating night, MOONMonkey - we all have them from time-to-time. For bizarre reasons, I've made some stupid mistakes in the past. I took my mount to a dark sky site last week to look for PANSTARRS and managed to drop the mount head cracking the plastic surround for the Dec axis... not a happy bunny!

Anyway, keep going and you will get there. I've never read "Turn left..." as I am a committed GoTo devotee but how dark was your sky? The faint fuzzies get washed out with moderate light pollution...

[WaveSoarer]

Jez,

I have a similar setup and it can be quite a challenge to star hop to your target. It dies get easier with practice though. I find that a practice run with my binoculars, or even the finder scope hand held, gives you a good start - especially as you'll find it less easy to slew and find your path with the finder attached to the scope. I can recognise the pattern of stars next to M51 fairly well now, and I can get the scope set up on it fairly easily now. I also know how large the finder field of view is relative to this pattern. If you use a reasonably low power EP then you should be able to see the cores of M51a and M51b, though they are quite faint. If you then slew back to the nearest bright star, Alkaid, you can then focus the camera before slewing back to the position you found M51. You will need to use a longer exposure to check your location. I use at least 30s and in some instances I use 120 s (all at 800 iso). The pattern of stars I use, starting at Alkaid, is defined by: HIP 66116, HIP 65768, HIP 66004, HIP 65309 and HIP 65550 (all in Stellarium). These stars can be easily seen in the finder (though they spill over the field of view) and they form an easily recognisable shape. M51 is relatively close to the line between 66004 and 65768 (about 1/3 of the distance). If you have Stellarium have a look and you'll see what I mean.

I hope this helps.

Dave

[SnakeyJ]

Hi Jez,

Sorry to hear that about your leg and problems finding M51, though I also applaud using the EQ5 with tracking mount. Sure you will get there in the end and in truth the seeing wasn't good last night despite the transparency and this will also have added to the difficulty of visually observing.

Just an idea though - might be worth considering a flip mirror diagonal to give you a quick/easy swap between camera and visual - haven't gone down this road myself yet, as I'm still concentrating on the planetary imaging although I often have to swap the camera/filter wheels and barlows out for an EP and its a complete nuisance, especially with cold fingers. I did see one on ABS recently so might be worth a thought!

[Davey-T]

Spookily similar night Jez, as you say first decent one for ages, set everything up while it was still light ,planning to try M51 later ,went up local hill for fruitless search for the comet, came back,

sky nice and dark, fired it all up and PHD & SSAG didn't wan't to play, worked fine a couple of weeks ago.

Spent two hours faffing about reinstalling PHD and Starshoot drivers ,even though device manager said it was OK , took a couple of unguided pic's just to have something to show for the evening. Gave up, cleared up and stamped my feet all the way back indoors.

Tried it this morning and it all worked fine. :angry4: :angry4: :angry4: :angry4:

[M00NMonkey]

Jez,

I have a similar setup and it can be quite a challenge to star hop to your target. It dies get easier with practice though. I find that a practice run with my binoculars, or even the finder scope hand held, gives you a good start - especially as you'll find it less easy to slew and find your path with the finder attached to the scope. I can recognise the pattern of stars next to M51 fairly well now, and I can get the scope set up on it fairly easily now. I also know how large the finder field of view is relative to this pattern. If you use a reasonably low power EP then you should be able to see the cores of M51a and M51b, though they are quite faint. If you then slew back to the nearest bright star, Alkaid, you can then focus the camera before slewing back to the position you found M51. You will need to use a longer exposure to check your location. I use at least 30s and in some instances I use 120 s (all at 800 iso). The pattern of stars I use, starting at Alkaid, is defined by: HIP 66116, HIP 65768, HIP 66004, HIP 65309 and HIP 65550 (all in Stellarium). These stars can be easily seen in the finder (though they spill over the field of view) and they form an easily recognisable shape. M51 is relatively close to the line between 66004 and 65768 (about 1/3 of the distance). If you have Stellarium have a look and you'll see what I mean.

I hope this helps.

Dave

Hi Dave, Thanks for the advice. this is what I thought I was doing last night, so I had probably found M51 without actually knowing it. DOH!

I am now better informed and I feel very confident I will bag this little wonder next clear skies.

Hi Jez,

Sorry to hear that about your leg and problems finding M51, though I also applaud using the EQ5 with tracking mount. Sure you will get there in the end and in truth the seeing wasn't good last night despite the transparency and this will also have added to the difficulty of visually observing.

Just an idea though - might be worth considering a flip mirror diagonal to give you a quick/easy swap between camera and visual - haven't gone down this road myself yet, as I'm still concentrating on the planetary imaging although I often have to swap the camera/filter wheels and barlows out for an EP and its a complete nuisance, especially with cold fingers. I did see one on ABS recently so might be worth a thought!

Thanks SnakeyJ, its nice to be applauded rather than told to upgrade. I am not use to this

I have a look into the flip M Diag. sounds like it might come in handy. I have just order a new adaptor for DSLR to SW coma corrector, I am not sure if using this will make it easier for me to switch between imaging and viewing. Time will tell. Is it possible to get another direct DSLR connector like the one that comes with thswe200p? be handy to have a second to save switching around all the time, if there are no other options.

Thanks

Jez

Also.

Thanks to everyone for their words of support, encouragement, well wishes (the legs doing ok, i think the knee has taken the brunt, bending the wrongway slightly) luck, help and advice. And of course, sharing your nights of disaster to make me feel less alone in the muppet corner

Clear skies all!!

Jez

[steppenwolf]

As for the levels in BYE. I have only used it 3times, including last night. The weather really hasn't been kind for those of us who stare into space. And, consequently, lacking in time spent using it, I didn't realise you could adjust the levels. I will investigate this and find out what I need to do. Thanks for pointing this out!

Hmmm, BYE doesn't appear to have a 'Levels' function after all which seems strange as a preliminary basic stretch is often all that is needed to reveal a faint object. Revert to my 20 seconds suggestion as that will have the same effect.

[M00NMonkey]

Hmmm, BYE doesn't appear to have a 'Levels' function after all which seems strange as a preliminary basic stretch is often all that is needed to reveal a faint object. Revert to my 20 seconds suggestion as that will have the same effect.

Cheers for letting me know that, Steve. Saved me a day of pulling my hair out trying to find something that isn't there!

I think it will be at least 20sec+ subs for framing purposes, from now on. The fact that I must of had M51 in frame at some point last night, really smarts, so the lesson is engrained

[knobby]

+1 for the 'sticking with the EQ5'

Go for it

[Scott]

Mate, I can totally feel your frustration. I think we've all had "one of those nights". Mine was whilst in Australia and I went out bush to a place where it was darker than I'd ever imagined. Being totally new to DSLR's (had only ever used one once before) I made the mistake of thinking that the iso setting i'd used in the suburbs would be fine. I spent about 4 hrs taking wide field subs and darks at various lengths of all these wonderful southern targets we don't get to see here and not having a p.c. or laptop, could not view them til I got back to the city. what I'd managed to capture was....... useless . To this day every time I see an image of the large or small magellanic clouds I feel gutted. fortunately I had a 130 heritage dob with me and the memories of what I saw that night will stay with me forever even if the images won't.

I guess we've got to be philosophical about it and accept that these things happen and can only make those nights when things work just that little bit better.

edit:- I guess what I'm trying to say is stick at it and don't get disheartened

Scott

[M00NMonkey]

Mate, I can totally feel your frustration. I think we've all had "one of those nights". Mine was whilst in Australia and I went out bush to a place where it was darker than I'd ever imagined. Being totally new to DSLR's (had only ever used one once before) I made the mistake of thinking that the iso setting i'd used in the suburbs would be fine. I spent about 4 hrs taking wide field subs and darks at various lengths of all these wonderful southern targets we don't get to see here and not having a p.c. or laptop, could not view them til I got back to the city. what I'd managed to capture was....... useless . To this day every time I see an image of the large or small magellanic clouds I feel gutted. fortunately I had a 130 heritage dob with me and the memories of what I saw that night will stay with me forever even if the images won't.

I guess we've got to be philosophical about it and accept that these things happen and can only make those nights when things work just that little bit better.

edit:- I guess what I'm trying to say is stick at it and don't get disheartened

Scott

Cheers Scott.

Pep talk appreciated, though no need to worry because the experience has armed me with more knowledge and determination so no chance of giving up!

I reciprocate your feelings of pain and frustration from hearing your story. TBH I think yours tops mine. I see you are sometimes in Sydney. Have you not retried the southern skies on a return journey?

[Scott]

Cheers Scott.

Pep talk appreciated, though no need to worry because the experience has armed me with more knowledge and determination so no chance of giving up!

I reciprocate your feelings of pain and frustration from hearing your story. TBH I think yours tops mine. I see you are sometimes in Sydney. Have you not retried the southern skies on a return journey?

Finances and a lull in the building industry have prevented us from returning since last time but don'y worry, its certainly on the to do list

[Amra]

I had a similar experience as yours, searching for the M101 Pinwheel Galaxy in a triangle of Mizar & Alkaid for hours, maybe I had an exposure problem as well, it never turned up on my screen. So I went on to image M81 & M82 instead that evening, which was somehow much easier to find.

In addition to star hopping I've also tried using the equatorial grid in Stellarium to set one axis on the right 'line' towards the DSO you are aiming to image & then gradually moving the other axis and imaging as I moved along to find it. I also sometimes set it to sensor view in Stellarium & try to compare what I'm seeing on the image compared to the stars near the DSO I'm trying to track, this sometimes helps but you can also end up confusing yourself even more.

I still haven't managed to image M101 but frustrating nights such as the one you had forces one to learn to use all tools at your disposal when GOTO isn't available.

[M00NMonkey]

I had a similar experience as yours, searching for the M101 Pinwheel Galaxy in a triangle of Mizar & Alkaid for hours, maybe I had an exposure problem as well, it never turned up on my screen. So I went on to image M81 & M82 instead that evening, which was somehow much easier to find.

In addition to star hopping I've also tried using the equatorial grid in Stellarium to set one axis on the right 'line' towards the DSO you are aiming to image & then gradually moving the other axis and imaging as I moved along to find it. I also sometimes set it to sensor view in Stellarium & try to compare what I'm seeing on the image compared to the stars near the DSO I'm trying to track, this sometimes helps but you can also end up confusing yourself even more.

I still haven't managed to image M101 but frustrating nights such as the one you had forces one to learn to use all tools at your disposal when GOTO isn't available.

This did cross my mind yesterday, but good tip. Thanks for your help.

Jez

[WaveSoarer]

Amra has a good point there. M81 and M82 are much easier to find (I can see them easily in my bins when there's a quarter moon) ans they have a real wow factor in the eyepiece. It's easy to make out their shapes without having to use much averted vision. They are easier than M51 (a and and also the Leo triplet. The star hop to M81 and M82 isn't so difficult either - though I use a series of short hops rather than going a more obvious route. Very well worth the effort to find and view. They are by far the most impressive pair of galaxies I've seen.

I really like the simplicity of the EQ5 with the dual axis motors as it's easy to set up and you don't have to tangle with any software or additional cameras that you'll need for guiding. The downside is, of course, that it only tracks but I've found that you can get really good results with the camera at prime focus or with a 2x Barlow. The longest exposures I've attempted have been 120 seconds with objects close to the ecliptic( which places greater demands on tracking accuracy) but I expect that you can get even longer exposures without significant trailing if the alignment and balance is very good. For higher objects (closer to Polaris) then I expect that even longer exposures could be carried out without significant trailing. DSS is also extremely good at ranking subs and throwing out poor ones so the more subs you take the better as it means you can pick the best of the set.

[M00NMonkey]

I will bear M81 and M82 in mind, next time out. But I do feel like I have a score to settle with M51, so this will still be my next target. I need to learn to find the fainter galaxies, and practice framing, so it will all be valuable experience.

But if I spend another 4 hours + with no luck, I will turn my gaze to M81/82 rather than swing the scope around for the leo triplet.

Thanks for all the support and help though, peeps!

Jez