Question about Andromeda and the like.

[M4lcs67]

I was wondering if having a telescope with a larger apeture with a larger light grasping capability would give better views of nebular and spiral galaxies such as Andromeda?

Currently with my 5" MAK all I can get is a fuzzy blob with no definition. Would I also need to go to a dark sky site or could I potentially be able to see it under light pollution?

What would be the minimum apeture of scope that would give definable images?

[Dunkster]

Don't do it! Don't defect to the dark side! Don't ditch your trusty Mak, Malc

[Dunkster]

Don't take my word for it, as I'm sure there'll be more of an expert along soon, but...

darkness - or lack of, affects our ability to perceive contrast

light gathering - from aperture, affects our ability to see detail

Andromeda is a tough one because while it is bright it is very large, so the light is spread over a large area of the sky... so darkness is the first thing we need to see it, and then aperture to see any detail.

[Space Bat]

M31 isn't the easiest or best object to define a scope's worth - it offers very little to the naked eye observer -

Other galaxies such as M51, M101 are far better to find more structure even M81 is something you can get more from.

For something so close I find M31 a damp squib of an object - shame its not face on - wow then that would be a site behold

[LukeSkywatcher]

Not touching this one because i have seen Andromeda galaxy visually with different scopes,naked eye and imaged it with a 450D and stacked multiple images.

[John]

I've seen nice spiral structure in M51 with a 12" scope from a dark sky site and I reckon it should be possible with a 10" or even an 8" under really dark skies.

I think the answer to your query is that you need both darker skies and more aperture to see these details in galaxies.

[Lancashire Astroguy]

Currently with my 5" MAK all I can get is a fuzzy blob with no definition.

I have a 5.1inch Newtonian and that is pretty much my view of M31 too. You have to remember that we are only seeing the relatively bland core of the galaxy with this aperture telescope. Don't quote me on this, but I imagine you would require at least an 8-10inch aperture to begin to see any of the nebulosity in the outer disk of the galaxy.

As others have mentioned, its not the best galaxy to view telescopically because it covers a large area (about 3 degrees from tip of disk to tip of disk). Try to find M81 and M82 instead. They make a beautiful pair in my telescope - at low magnification they both fit in the same field of view. M82 is pencil-thin and you can even see dust lanes in it.

Regards, James

[LukeSkywatcher]

I've seen nice spiral structure in M51 with a 12" scope from a dark sky site and I reckon it should be possible with a 10" or even an 8" under really dark skies.

I think the answer to your query is that you need both darker skies and more aperture to see these details in galaxies.

M51 is the "Whirlpool".

[Cunhaval]

Well, visually, you would certainly notice a big difference with a 10" or 12" dob, but, to be honest, M31, like a lot of DSOs, is never going to be spectacularly impressive visually in almost any amateur scope. They don't call DSOs "faint fuzzies" for nothing.

To resolve more detail, I suspect that you would have to call on the dark art of imaging

And even then, as noted above, there are a lot of more rewarding DSOs than Andromeda.

[LukeSkywatcher]

When i observe M31.............i love the fact that it is so far away but is the closest object to us. The light from it has only taken 2 million years to reach our scopes. Astronomically speaking that is NOTHING.

[swamp thing]

I have a 5.1inch Newtonian and that is pretty much my view of M31 too. You have to remember that we are only seeing the relatively bland core of the galaxy with this aperture telescope. Don't quote me on this, but I imagine you would require at least an 8-10inch aperture to begin to see any of the nebulosity in the outer disk of the galaxy.

As others have mentioned, its not the best galaxy to view telescopically because it covers a large area (about 3 degrees from tip of disk to tip of disk). Try to find M81 and M82 instead. They make a beautiful pair in my telescope - at low magnification they both fit in the same field of view. M82 is pencil-thin and you can even see dust lanes in it.

Regards, James

TBH it's nt aperture that'll bring out the outer regions of this giant object, it's contrast. The contrast you only get at a dark sky site. My 15x70 bins show the extremes of tha galaxy very well indeed from a dark sky.

My 16" won't show the outer regions from an urban sky either.

Dark skies are a galaxy hunters best weapons not giant apertures.

I have seen one of M31s dust lanes through a 4" frac from good sky.

[John]

M51 is the "Whirlpool".

Yep

While it looked good with a 12", I got to view it with a 20" the year after from the same site. Oh boy .....

[Cunhaval]

When i observe M31.............i love the fact that it is so far away but is the closest object to us.

+1. Whilst it might not be the most impressive sight visually, it is, after all, a whole other GALAXY.

And, one day, it's going to eat our own!

[LukeSkywatcher]

One of my best observations was M64 with my trusty 5" Heritage.

[hemihaggis]

I have had my 127 mak high in the mountains In galloway , at tunskeen bothy ,Google it for laugh ... great accommodation !! , you could see the bright central core surrounded by a haze of stars with two spiral arms spreading across the fov . That's where you need to go !!

[Specman]

Can you imagine the night sky of the future with Andromina bearing down on us and filling the entire sky! What a sight that would be!

Your eye's are not really sensitive enough to resolve the colour and detail in little grey smudges

Put a camera on it for a couple of minutes and watch it come to life, stack several dozen images and now you are cooking!

[Caldwell 14]

I think M31 is really quite good in a rich field refractor like a SW120 IMHO

[LukeSkywatcher]

I love M31 even in my 20X90 bins.

[RikM]

Yes, I reckon M31 is best in big binos from a very dark site.

[Specman]

Here's a proper view!

http://stargazerslounge.com/imaging-deep-sky/174019-m31-weymouth-kelling.html

[swamp thing]

Here's a proper view!

http://stargazerslounge.com/imaging-deep-sky/174019-m31-weymouth-kelling.html

No. That's not a proper view, that is an image. You cannot capture a proper view with a camera any more than you can image an object with an eye.

A proper view is what you can see.

An image is what you create.

Regards Steve

[LukeSkywatcher]

No. That's not a proper view, that is an image. You cannot capture a proper view with a camera any more than you can image an object with an eye.

A proper view is what you can see.

An image is what you create.

Regards Steve

I COULD NOT AGREE MORE.

A view and an image are two very different things..

[The_PSY3NTIST]

I get a smudge in my 8" under light polluted skies.. Not had it out to a dark site

[ollypenrice]

In a 20 inch at a very dark site and at 3000 feet I see;

A galaxy that greatly exceeds the FOV of the EP (a 26mm Nagler.)

Both satellite galaxies shining brightly.

Two strong dust lanes cutting through the nebulosity.

Long, long extended streaks when panning to find the full limits of what's visible.

It is never like M51 in which you can see clear face-on spiral structure, not is it like M101 which, though much fainter, shows structural details like the two bright star forming patches out at the ends of the spiral arms.

It must also be said that even in a big scope and at a dark site M31 has to be high and the sky has to be clear and moonless, otherwise you are back to a fuzzy blob, albeit a very big one. If I'm honest I find very big scopes just slightly disappointing in what they reveal. I suppose when I started out that I was expecting a bit more. My dream 'big scope' would be a larger but faster scope than our 20 inch F4.1. If you just keep adding aperture you also keep adding focal length and this doesn't get me where I really want to be.

Olly

[rocketandroll]

Just to add to the votes for a dark site making the biggest difference..

Up at Kelling Heath in September I looked at M31 through a 32mm Panaview ep with my Megrez 72 (less than 3" of apperture) and was blown away... I could see dust lanes and detail I'd never seen before... It looked like a galaxy, not just a blob.

I've also however looked at M31 through a 12" scope at a light polluted site and been pretty dissapointed.

Ben

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