It's all useless! Are there any good ways to control my setup? : (

[pipnina]

At least back when my setup consisted of a DSLR on a newt that I focused manually, and framed manually with the HEQ5 handset and then didn't even guide, I could get mediocre results *consistently*!

Controlling my setup has been a perpetual pain ever since computerising it early last year. Either requiring a laptop to sit out there with it, a raspberry pi running astroberry, or now a headless mini PC that I remote into. Each system has its own problems (some of which center around Kstars, but that is behaving itself at present). The laptop would get condensate all over the screen and require a box for it to sit on, and often kstars would have issues, plus my laptop is needed sometimes for work so I would have to remember to collect it in the morning.

The raspberry PI worked reasonably well, however I was only able to source a 2GB version which was NOT enough memory for kstars and PHD to run at the same time, it crashed often due to running out of memory. It also required a very good USB wifi dongle to reach my router even though it was only on the other side of a bit of glass 15 meters away!

This mini PC worked ok to a certain extent, but controlling it remotely is infernal somehow even compared to the RPI which also shared its screen via the same VNC protocol. And what's worse I am struggling to get a fast enough internet connection to it for it to even work properly! The virgin media hub estimates it is getting between 5 and 15mbits connection speed, but the 240 second download time for a single 50mb sub to my pc inside suggests it's closer to 200KB/s or 1.6Mb/s! It was fine last time I used it and no amount of reboots or reconnections fixed it. First clear night in a month and I couldn't get far enough to even focus!

There has to be a better way that allows me to get the telescope up and going computer wise quickly and without me needing to stand next to it for the whole session. I'd think about the ASI Air but I don't think it supports my pegasus power box advance or my risingcam 571 camera. Am I supposed to cast magic spells on it or something? 😭

Every time I solve one problem I come face to face with another and it makes this 50KG lump that has cost me more than £5000 feel more like I paid extortionate sums for a piece of garden furniture than a photographic system.

My Canon AE1-Program on my Star Adventurer took its half hour of images admirably even if the battery for the electric shutter was near death afterwards.

What can I even do here besides run an ethernet cable out the window or find some totally different system of control? Help!

[carastro]

If you are used to doing things really basically why not try this - which is what l do. 
 

Yes a computer outside needs a box to keep the dew off. 
 

I simply set everything up and running outside and then retreat indoors and watch the subs and guiding from indoors on a second laptop via Teamviewer using Wifi.    This does mean getting a second laptop but l buy very cheap reconditioned ones off Ebay.  This will free up your work laptop which can be the indoor one.  
 

I can control the software from indoors and watch the guiding and change things as needed 
 

HTH

Edited August 6, 2023 by carastro

[vlaiv]

10 minutes ago, pipnina said:

What can I even do here besides run an ethernet cable out the window or find some totally different system of control? Help!

Do you have external power outlet on your house?

Wired connection will most definitively help. Wifi can really be poor quality, especially if there are multiple networks around.

If you have external power outlet (and I'm guessing you do since you power your rig somehow) - there are ethernet over power line devices that don't cost much that you can use for up to gigabit link speeds.

[ONIKKINEN]

18 minutes ago, pipnina said:

This mini PC worked ok to a certain extent, but controlling it remotely is infernal somehow even compared to the RPI which also shared its screen via the same VNC protocol. And what's worse I am struggling to get a fast enough internet connection to it for it to even work properly! The virgin media hub estimates it is getting between 5 and 15mbits connection speed, but the 240 second download time for a single 50mb sub to my pc inside suggests it's closer to 200KB/s or 1.6Mb/s! It was fine last time I used it and no amount of reboots or reconnections fixed it. First clear night in a month and I couldn't get far enough to even focus!

Why not use a USB stick? Why do you have to have the subs on your main PC the instant they are taken? Seems like an extra complication with no real benefit to me. At least personally i would try to simplify the process a bit. The connection between the scopeside pc and the control device needs to be only so good that an image can be displayed, which doesnt need to be high speed.

I would suggest that you simply collect them with a USB stick and transfer them to your processing PC after the imaging run has completed.

[Budgie1]

I know nothing about KStars or RPi's, but before I built the obsy I was setting up each night and running the kit like you do.

My setup consisted of HEQ5, ZWO ASI294MC Pro, ZWO ASI120mm Mini guider on either Skywatcher Evostar 100ED DS Pro or the 80ED DS Pro. 

The mount & 2 cameras were connected via the Pegasus Power Box Advance (which also powered the main & guide scope dew heaters) to a 15m Active USB3 extension cable which connected into my Windows laptop inside the house.

On the laptop, I ran APT for platesolving, focusing (after I got the auto focus motors) and image acquisition. APT will also now to Polar Alignment. For guiding, I used PHD2, as you do now. 

The only issues I ever had was down to the poor quality USB cables I initially used.

[Clarkey]

I would second a couple of the points above. I use a Powerline adaptor for my internet connection into the observatory - this is just for the remote desktop. It's still not too quick, but I collect the subs on the PC and transfer in the morning as suggested by @ONIKKINEN. I use a fanless mini PC which generate enough heat to keep dew off.

[vlaiv]

I have another suggestion, but it is sort of advanced use case.

You can have RPI just sitting next your gear to provide you with USB over ethernet functionality.

With linux it is fairly easy to setup that and can have "remote" usb ports so you can run all the software on your laptop (provided it also use linux) inside of the house if you provide ethernet connection between the two.

I'm now thinking of converting my 3d printed which currently runs kipper on banana pi - to that configuration. There are orange pi SBC-s that are very small but well suited to provide remote USB functionality for fraction of the cost of raspberry pi. I'd run my klipper on virtual machine on my virtualization server and connect to 3d printer via USB over ethernet.

[Clarkey]

3 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

kipper on banana pi

?? You've lost me already. Fish and fruit??

[vlaiv]

2 minutes ago, Clarkey said:

?? You've lost me already. Fish and fruit??

Sorry that's supposed to be klipper

Advanced firmware for 3d printers, and banana pi is well - a fruity flavored single board computer . much like raspberry pi.

[Elp]

A lot of what you've mentioned is exactly why I moved over to the asiair as I didn't want a computer in the equation full stop for the image acquisition. But no, it won't work with your camera or Pegasus, it also has its issues at times (ie currently with its latest firmware and app version) but has been in use across the various iterations and multiple setups at the same time for around 4 years and in my case having used an rpi with Astroberry, PHD2, kstars/ekos, was a complete breath of fresh air (the 4gb rpi is also prone to crashing).

Try to tackle each bit one at a time.

As you now have one, your mini pc might be the best thing to soldier on with. WiFi connections are always iffy around electronics and through building materials, I've had it with my airs but finally got a resolution with the mini which usually transmits my 40Mb previews within 5s. With one of the units (pro) the WiFi propogation improved by using a usb WiFi extender, even the plus (the top of the line air unit atm) benefits from connecting up an SMA extender cable so the aerial is away from the OTA which improves the signal. If the signal has to travel through brick it will downgrade the signal. The furthest I ever managed to setup a WiFi signal with a WiFi extender in between the broadcasting router and a host pc without ethernet cables was around 60-70M, the connection however was slow so minimise distance where you can. Every setup will be different. As vlaiv has recommended, a power line ethernet adaptor can help, I believe they need to be on the same electrical circuit to get the most benefit in speed. You can also configure your mini pc to connect to your router instead of your pc because routers normally have better WiFi propogation, with all devices connected to the router they should be able to talk to each other easily.

Next step would be the telescope control.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Elp

[pipnina]

31 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Why not use a USB stick? Why do you have to have the subs on your main PC the instant they are taken? Seems like an extra complication with no real benefit to me. At least personally i would try to simplify the process a bit. The connection between the scopeside pc and the control device needs to be only so good that an image can be displayed, which doesnt need to be high speed.

I would suggest that you simply collect them with a USB stick and transfer them to your processing PC after the imaging run has completed.

Sadly sometimes I struggle to even get remote control of the outside computer to work reliably enough for all the software to run at said outside computer.

The VNC protocol is only good at transfering information about windows and actual rendering is handled client side, so if a window has a drawing it has to be sent over as a PNG basically which is super slow. I tried to control the PC remotely and have it use Kstars and PHD and it ran so slowly that it just stopped at times. Totally unusable.

Naturally when I used my laptop, it had a built in screen, keyboard, mouse etc. I could set things up and go indoors, and only go outside to check on it if I wanted to. This doesn't provide any way for me to see something has gone wrong without going outside but at least it was responsive and fast when I braved the cold and the flimsy cardboard box it sat on (and my leg muscles from squatting in front of it, ow!). I'd then transfer images indoors the next day.

45 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

Do you have external power outlet on your house?

Wired connection will most definitively help. Wifi can really be poor quality, especially if there are multiple networks around.

If you have external power outlet (and I'm guessing you do since you power your rig somehow) - there are ethernet over power line devices that don't cost much that you can use for up to gigabit link speeds.

This is actually a very good idea, as I use a plug inside the basement that runs an extension lead out of the basement door. If I can get an ethernet cable onto a plug adapter on the same ring as that basement plug I could have a wired connection all the way to the scope without the need of wireless or without having actual house windows open to let a super-length ethernet cable outside in winter!

I will definitely look into this!

39 minutes ago, Budgie1 said:

I know nothing about KStars or RPi's, but before I built the obsy I was setting up each night and running the kit like you do.

My setup consisted of HEQ5, ZWO ASI294MC Pro, ZWO ASI120mm Mini guider on either Skywatcher Evostar 100ED DS Pro or the 80ED DS Pro. 

The mount & 2 cameras were connected via the Pegasus Power Box Advance (which also powered the main & guide scope dew heaters) to a 15m Active USB3 extension cable which connected into my Windows laptop inside the house.

On the laptop, I ran APT for platesolving, focusing (after I got the auto focus motors) and image acquisition. APT will also now to Polar Alignment. For guiding, I used PHD2, as you do now. 

The only issues I ever had was down to the poor quality USB cables I initially used.

I had not heard of APT before, sadly it is a windows only app but worth me bearing in mind for the future in case I do concede to use that OS again.

Active USB sounds interesting and i might look into that if Vlaiv's ethernet power plug idea falls through!

 

Many thanks to all!

[alacant]

17 minutes ago, pipnina said:

the PC remotely and have it use Kstars and PHD and it ran so slowly that it just stopped at times.

Hi

Give yourself a chance. No need to learn new software.

Get one of the new generation  mini-pcs with say 16Gb RAM and a nice SSD. Install Ubuntu, kstars and whatever else you like. Stable wifi and vnc, cheaper than a Pi and will run all night every night. In real time.

Cheers and HTH

Edited August 6, 2023 by alacant

[Stuart1971]

Mini PC such as the Mele quieter 3C or 3Q on the mount and NINA to control everything, then remote into that from PC indoors, never let me down, and I have come from the Raspberry PI and Stellarmate which was ok ish, but compared to the mini PC….well it just works all the time….👍🏻

[vlaiv]

If you are running indy / indigo, why not have only server on remote machine and other software on your work computer instead of using VNC?

 

[900SL]

These remote desktop set ups are great as long as they work, but you need a knowledge of networks, ports and IT when they don't. 

 

My set up (so far .. touch wood) seems to work, more by good luck than anything:

Mele Quieter PC on the mount, 12V DC powered, with a Slate GL 750S 3 port router riding on top, running on 5V, direct LAN cable to Mele PC

I connect from remote desktop PC to the Slate Router via wifi. 

[pipnina]

15 minutes ago, alacant said:

Hi

Give yourself a chance. No need to learn new software.

Get one of the new generation  mini-pcs with say 16Gb RAM and a nice SSD. Install Ubuntu, kstars and whatever else you like. Stable wifi and vnc, cheaper than a Pi and will run all night every night. In real time.

Cheers and HTH

 

11 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

Mini PC such as the Mele quieter 3C or 3Q on the mount and NINA to control everything, then remote into that from PC indoors, never let me down, and I have come from the Raspberry PI and Stellarmate which was ok ish, but compared to the mini PC….well it just works all the time….👍🏻

This is basically my current system, the PC is velcro'd to my mount and I just press the power button and it comes to life, boots Ubuntu MATE, connects to the wifi, starts X11VNC all by itself and I just go inside, and connect to the VNC server to control it from my desktop inside.

Problem here is mostly the signal strength and clunkiness of controlling kstars over VNC server. For some reason it really doesn't like it! Plus the wifi speed to the PC outside seems very poor and the dongle I bought, while I managed to eventually get it to work on Ubuntu, seems to not manage any reasonable speed at that distance/location... At least recently, it was usable before but last night was impossibly slow connection.

Maybe with a better internet connection it will simply make it all work better, have kstars and all running directly on that outside PC and controlled from indoors over VNC, but for now it's proving a challenge!

My dad has suggested maybe a directional Wifi Access Point could work, simply run a cable from the router to this WAP and have the WAP at the window looking at my scope when I am going to use it. This would be the cleanest and easiest solution probably but the powerrline adapter is still in high standing to me right now.

[pipnina]

4 minutes ago, vlaiv said:

If you are running indy / indigo, why not have only server on remote machine and other software on your work computer instead of using VNC?

 

Last night this is what I did! I started indi on the remote machine via VNC in a terminal. Then My desktop indoors ran Kstars and connected to that indi server. This is where the 240s download time for a single sub came from. Even binned 4x4 I was looking at 10-20s download times which is possibly too aggressive a downsample to autofocus with 😕

It has worked previously with everything in the same spot. Last night was just horrendous. Even signalling the AF motor to move position had a delay of several seconds due to the network lag.

I'm very perplexed as to what's happened really

[Stuart1971]

Just now, pipnina said:

 

This is basically my current system, the PC is velcro'd to my mount and I just press the power button and it comes to life, boots Ubuntu MATE, connects to the wifi, starts X11VNC all by itself and I just go inside, and connect to the VNC server to control it from my desktop inside.

Problem here is mostly the signal strength and clunkiness of controlling kstars over VNC server. For some reason it really doesn't like it! Plus the wifi speed to the PC outside seems very poor and the dongle I bought, while I managed to eventually get it to work on Ubuntu, seems to not manage any reasonable speed at that distance/location... At least recently, it was usable before but last night was impossibly slow connection.

Maybe with a better internet connection it will simply make it all work better, have kstars and all running directly on that outside PC and controlled from indoors over VNC, but for now it's proving a challenge!

My dad has suggested maybe a directional Wifi Access Point could work, simply run a cable from the router to this WAP and have the WAP at the window looking at my scope when I am going to use it. This would be the cleanest and easiest solution probably but the powerrline adapter is still in high standing to me right now.

The issue is the Wi-Fi, I use a little tiny TP link USB Wi-Fi aerial (£13) instead of the internal one, I use to use it on the raspberry PI too, and it was far better than the built in wifi with is pretty dire on the RPI…

the VNC on the pi is also really slowwwwww, and so is any VNC you use on it, the cursor drags when moving around the screen, that’s not the connection it’s just the RPI

Remote desktop is far superior and just works, but it means you need windows, I have never looked back after swapping out the RPI for the Mele 3 and windows 11, with NINA, and was a real supporter of Stellarmate and the RPI too…

[vlaiv]

6 minutes ago, pipnina said:

I'm very perplexed as to what's happened really

For best wifi experience you really need to have dedicated wifi gear paired with parabolic antennae.

That way you can create links that are up to couple of kilometers long that work well.

For simple use cases - cable is hard to beat.

[Elp]

Does your controlling PC have an internal (on board) or a PCI card (so WiFi antenna sticking out the back)? If it's the latter, you might be able to try the SMA cable trick, just source one long enough, unscrew the existing antenna and reconnect at the end of the extension cable. If you try this just make sure it's the correct pin type both ends. If you're using a laptop, you can't do this.

Edited August 6, 2023 by Elp

[pipnina]

15 minutes ago, Stuart1971 said:

The issue is the Wi-Fi, I use a little tiny TP link USB Wi-Fi aerial (£13) instead of the internal one, I use to use it on the raspberry PI too, and it was far better than the built in wifi with is pretty dire on the RPI…

the VNC on the pi is also really slowwwwww, and so is any VNC you use on it, the cursor drags when moving around the screen, that’s not the connection it’s just the RPI

Remote desktop is far superior and just works, but it means you need windows, I have never looked back after swapping out the RPI for the Mele 3 and windows 11, with NINA, and was a real supporter of Stellarmate and the RPI too…

5 minutes ago, Elp said:

Does your controlling PC have an internal (on board) or a PCI card (so WiFi antenna sticking out the back)? If it's the latter, you might be able to try the SMA cable trick, just source one long enough, unscrew the existing antenna and reconnect at the end of the extension cable. If you try this just make sure it's the correct pin type both ends. If you're using a laptop, you can't do this.

It has no on-board wifi. I have an AC wifi dongle plugged in, but it's a very small one and I had to put a lot of effort to get it to play nice with Ubuntu (as is usually the case with wifi dongles sadly, they are almost all realtek chips!)

 

[Priesters]

PM me if this kit would be any use.  It’s USB 2 though and needs power at the remote end so not sure if it would help.  Been trying to sell it for a while so price would be good particularly to a fellow SGL’er. Would come with 15m ethernet Cat6 cable.
 

[Vroobel]

Hi, 

A few words from my experience. I stubbornly tried to use the Astroberry on my RPi 4 8GB. I NEVER fully performed a PA, had to use SharpCap Pro. Guiding with PHD2 was poor, I was happy if saw 0.8" total RMS, but usually, it was 1.2-1.8". I have a TP-Link WiFi extender on a kitchen window, so the WiFi signal is very good. But even with that, its VNC was laggy and it often dropped to 16 colours or so. I was very disappointed. 

A few months ago I moved to ASIair Plus. Of course, I have everything from the ZWO, so I risked nothing. And a miracle had a place! I can control it with no problems at all, though a preview is slower because of 2.4GHz band. Using EXACTLY THE SAME MOUNT I get 0.6" total RMS very often, while 0.8" is like a norm. The PA takes a few minutes and always it's perfect, in range of teens of arcsec. 

So, what was going on with the RPi? KStars, Ekos and PHD2 configuration was proper, I passed through them many times watching tutorials. 

I tried the powerline as well, but I found that it doesn't work between different phases. It also doesn't work, if you have an RCD, like I have as a plug of my extension lead. 

I never tried NINA and I doubt if I will do it. The ASIair Plus finally gave me the expected satisfaction and I can sleep or watch movies during the session instead of observing the behaviour of my setup. 

I hope you can at least put the RPi aside and try something else. 

Edited August 10, 2023 by Vroobel

[alacant]

3 hours ago, pipnina said:

Maybe with a better internet connection

Hi

You don't need an Internet connection. 

Just setup ad-hoc/link local only between the two boxes. If it's still rubbish, use a long cable.

Cheers 

Edited August 6, 2023 by alacant

[Xilman]

Why use wireless?

Cat 5 ethernet cable will run up to a 100m with ease, in my experience, and it is much faster and more reliable that WiFi, again IME. Just be careful not to chop the cable when digging your garden! Even then, running it through a length of standard hosepipe will give a great deal of protection.

As noted earlier, a computer out at the telescope will need weather protection but a simple box, possibly cooled with a fan blowing out for summer use, will take of that. Power should not be a problem: extension cords are pretty cheap if you don't want to do a professional job with armoured cable.

My TCS necessarily runs Windoze (a sore point, so don't get me started) but once everything is set up I often connect with RDP from a Linux box back in the house. It just works for me, no hassle, no fancy configuration magic.

Also as noted, small computers, either Windoze or Linux, are pretty cheap these days, especially second hand. A 10 year old laptop is easily capable of driving a telescope and storing gigabytes of subs. If those subs are stored on a SMB or NFS drive you can do the stacking on any system you wish.