Congressional Oversight Committee on UAP's

[ONIKKINEN]

31 minutes ago, saac said:

No sightings from antiquity not even from 1800s, does seem strange. 

Jim 

Back in those days any mysterious unexplained phenomena will have likely been called an act of a deity.

The Romans and the Greeks associated many at the time unknown natural occurrences with acts of the gods (like volcanoes, earthquakes). Today we have scientific explanations for these, but to an ancient person it may have as well been magic.

[saac]

Just now, ONIKKINEN said:

Back in those days any mysterious unexplained phenomena will have likely been called an act of a deity.

The Romans and the Greeks associated many at the time unknown natural occurrences with acts of the gods (like volcanoes, earthquakes). Today we have scientific explanations for these, but to an ancient person it may have as well been magic.

I'm sure had a "craft" crashed and an "alien" body been recovered then a record of such would have appeared on a tapestry, scroll, or hewn into a lump of rock. But nothing, not even a cave painting.  I guess Plato, Socrates, Anaximander all had better things to do with their time. 

Jim 

[ONIKKINEN]

7 minutes ago, saac said:

I'm sure had a "craft" crashed and an "alien" body been recovered then a record of such would have appeared on a tapestry, scroll, or hewn into a lump of rock. But nothing, not even a cave painting.  I guess Plato, Socrates, Anaximander all had better things to do with their time. 

Jim 

Maybe, but time is a harsh mistress. Almost all of ancient history is lost to us forever so there may well have been a thousand tapestries circulating for hundreds of years only to be lost in the sack of Constantinople (like a major portion of all known history).

Just to be clear my stance on this whole thing is that someone has something to gain from this theater (which is obviously not a revelation that aliens are among us or some other mumbo jumbo). Probably a similar thing as the flat earth movement where gullible people are purposefully lead astray to make money off them. The whole hearing (what little clips i went through) sounds like a typical stiff political hearing where almost nothing actually gets said but with a lot of words.

[Barry Fitz-Gerald]

1 hour ago, saac said:

No sightings from antiquity not even from 1800s, does seem strange. 

There are plenty of accounts from history that refer to anomalous sightings (see Wonders in the Sky: Unexplained Aerial Objects from Antiquity to Modern Times by Chris Aubeck and Jacques Vallee) but deciphering them is fraught with problems, not least being how people described what they saw by attributing a quasi - religious, contemporary or mythical (angles, swords, shields, dragons and so on) aspect to them. And of course, how can one take seriously anything anyone wearing pantaloons and a ruff said. Alternatively some of the accounts recorded by William R. Corliss, particularly those culled from 19^th Century ship's logs are worth looking at as potential precursors of the modern phenomenon. Many of these are probably atmospheric phenomena of some sort or another, but many are, quite frankly bizarre and may have a bearing on contemporary USO sightings. And ships log's tend to be fairly accurately recorded documents. The Modern era has sightings going back to the late 19^th century, which include the 'Airship' phenomena, primarily in the US but not unknown in the UK (many of which were clearly sensational hoaxes perpetrated mainly by the press ).  From 1940 onwards, the 'Foo Fighter' phenomenon emerges, with very many combat aircrew accounts of encounters with anomalous ariel vehicles or devices, recorded in RAF and USAF squadron records and accounts. A literature search will reveal a lot more to anyone who can be bothered to look. So there is plenty of historical material out there, which to me indicates the possibility of a persistent phenomenon, spanning decades or more, and not a modern malaise perpetuated by generations of nutters.

 

 

[saac]

43 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Maybe, but time is a harsh mistress. Almost all of ancient history is lost to us forever so there may well have been a thousand tapestries circulating for hundreds of years only to be lost in the sack of Constantinople (like a major portion of all known history).

Just to be clear my stance on this whole thing is that someone has something to gain from this theater (which is obviously not a revelation that aliens are among us or some other mumbo jumbo). Probably a similar thing as the flat earth movement where gullible people are purposefully lead astray to make money off them. The whole hearing (what little clips i went through) sounds like a typical stiff political hearing where almost nothing actually gets said but with a lot of words.

Or  it  just might not have happened over the many thousands of years of human history and just post 1950! Strange though, that an event so important, so grand, has no mark in our historical records, not even cultural. Personally I think there is a really obvious reason for that. 

Jim 

[saac]

30 minutes ago, Barry Fitz-Gerald said:

There are plenty of accounts from history that refer to anomalous sightings (see Wonders in the Sky: Unexplained Aerial Objects from Antiquity to Modern Times by Chris Aubeck and Jacques Vallee) but deciphering them is fraught with problems, not least being how people described what they saw by attributing a quasi - religious, contemporary or mythical (angles, swords, shields, dragons and so on) aspect to them. And of course, how can one take seriously anything anyone wearing pantaloons and a ruff said. Alternatively some of the accounts recorded by William R. Corliss, particularly those culled from 19^th Century ship's logs are worth looking at as potential precursors of the modern phenomenon. Many of these are probably atmospheric phenomena of some sort or another, but many are, quite frankly bizarre and may have a bearing on contemporary USO sightings. And ships log's tend to be fairly accurately recorded documents. The Modern era has sightings going back to the late 19^th century, which include the 'Airship' phenomena, primarily in the US but not unknown in the UK (many of which were clearly sensational hoaxes perpetrated mainly by the press ).  From 1940 onwards, the 'Foo Fighter' phenomenon emerges, with very many combat aircrew accounts of encounters with anomalous ariel vehicles or devices, recorded in RAF and USAF squadron records and accounts. A literature search will reveal a lot more to anyone who can be bothered to look. So there is plenty of historical material out there, which to me indicates the possibility of a persistent phenomenon, spanning decades or more, and not a modern malaise perpetuated by generations of nutters.

 

 

Sorry but there is nothing authoritative and indisputable in the historical records, if there were we would not be having these discussions now. But aren't we fortunate to live in an age when "non human biologics" have been confirmed by an eye witness. One wonders why the authorities are so coy in bringing forth the evidence. So what exactly is the argument for withholding full disclosure  

Thank God we didn't progress with medical science, engineering, law etc with a similar philosophy of such a low bar of burden of proof/evidence. 

Jim 

Edited July 28, 2023 by saac

[Knighty2112]

Watching with interest as to what comes out. The UFO/UAP phenomena has interested me since early teens, and still does so now many years later. Governments around the world know much more than they are letting on. Quite a few theories on what they are and where they are from etc (from alien visitations at one end of the scale, to earth energies that creates the UAP’s in the mind of any observer), but there is something to the phenomena as much as it gets ridiculed and scorned at in main stream media, so I keep a very open mind on the subject.  

Edited July 28, 2023 by Knighty2112

[Mr Spock]

People who cannot comprehend the ordinary often seek answers in the extraordinary.

[SwiMatt]

16 hours ago, iantaylor2uk said:

It is somewhat suspicious that if anyone has any photos they are generally blurry and low resolution. More or less everyone nowadays have good quality high resolution cameras on their phones, which work irrespective of whether there's any Internet or phone connection, so if aliens are out there (and for some reason they are virtually always in the US rather than anywhere else in the world!) we should expect to start seeing some better quality photographic evidence. 

Hell, with the number of astrophotographers on this forum alone, I would expect very high quality proof regularly

 

[Rusted]

6 hours ago, Mr Spock said:

People who cannot comprehend the ordinary often seek answers in the extraordinary.

Until the "extraordinarily unlikely" flies slowly over your rural garden in the presence of your wife.

Memories cannot be undone. They are indelible and unchanging until you stop breathing. Two witnesses, who see exactly the same thing, have an "extraordinary" problem. Neither can deny, to the other, what they each saw quite clearly.

Witnessing the "extraordinary" is most likely to be dismissed by others. Hence the lack of reports and sneering cynicism. Open acceptance of a new "extraordinary" in society would probably bring down that same society. There are nearly 7 billion skittles. Who must follow society's sacred, local rules, or be damned. It was the same throughout history. The local "authority" can easily suppress anything they do not like the sound of. Suppression of "expert" witness reports continues.

Is there a constantly updated P179277[xyz] which "witnesses" can fill out? Then hand into any local police station around the globe? Why not? Because it might affect "national security?" Or undermine some other belief in the mental straitjackets which keep the local pawns cowed?

Countless trillions are spent on developing armaments which are proving quite worthless in real combat. Throw the "extraordinary" [cheap drone or tic-tac] into the afterburner and the whole pack of cards collapses. Or, much more likely,  leads to the announcement of another explosion in "defence" spending?

Forum rules prevent discussion of the "extraordinary" beliefs of billions. Which have not a jot of "scientific" evidence. Some even believe that sport, or the news media, has some value. Outside of advertising income for the "offshore" obscenely rich.

The greatest barrier against modern acceptance of the "extraordinary" is the jolly band of self-appointed "experts" and even the "whistleblowers." A nice little earner for the "influencer." To to be able to sell their YT sponsor's logos on T-shirts. They should really be printing their fantasies and "theories" straight onto bin bags!

An actual "witness" who doesn't believe all this "UFO nonsense?" Now that is truly "extraordinary," isn't  it?    

 

[DaveS]

I won't believe it's aliens until I see demonstrably alien technology and / or equally non terrestrial remains.

[Macavity]

I think there are too many (personal / financial!) interest on both sides? One might
welcome "Popular Scientists" chipping in... But are they saying anything much?
Appeals to authority... Sagan... or even (the splendid!) Feynman quote. lol.
But this merely reinforces ideas of SCIENCE as "Evil Mainstream"? 😈
(Do I imagine that "US Intelligence" is too bovvered?)

To me, many "prominents" of e.g. "String Wars", are being disingenuous too. It seems
to be more to do with (USA) "tenures" and funding of preferred theories? I even side
with a PHILOSOPHER - Who pointed out frequent misquoting/misuse of "his" ideas.
He does indentify the need to deal with the "Post Truth" (media) problem...
But I sense "Hollering at Astrologers" - Or even ridding the world
of (useful) Particle Physicists in unlikely to address this. 😛

The ultimate irony is, as some scientists have discovered(?), it is also possible to mine
the rich vein of conspiracy theorists too - Those who believe THEIR "special" scientist
is the sole purveyor of TRUTH? An idea few make any huge attempts to dispel... 😏

Edited July 29, 2023 by Macavity

[Mr Spock]

1 hour ago, Rusted said:

Until the "extraordinarily unlikely" flies slowly over your rural garden in the presence of your wife.

Memories cannot be undone. They are indelible and unchanging until you stop breathing. Two witnesses, who see exactly the same thing, have an "extraordinary" problem. Neither can deny, to the other, what they each saw quite clearly.

Witnessing the "extraordinary" is most likely to be dismissed by others. Hence the lack of reports and sneering cynicism. Open acceptance of a new "extraordinary" in society would probably bring down that same society. There are nearly 7 billion skittles. Who must follow society's sacred, local rules, or be damned. It was the same throughout history. The local "authority" can easily suppress anything they do not like the sound of. Suppression of "expert" witness reports continues.

Is there a constantly updated P179277[xyz] which "witnesses" can fill out? Then hand into any local police station around the globe? Why not? Because it might affect "national security?" Or undermine some other belief in the mental straitjackets which keep the local pawns cowed?

Countless trillions are spent on developing armaments which are proving quite worthless in real combat. Throw the "extraordinary" [cheap drone or tic-tac] into the afterburner and the whole pack of cards collapses. Or, much more likely,  leads to the announcement of another explosion in "defence" spending?

Forum rules prevent discussion of the "extraordinary" beliefs of billions. Which have not a jot of "scientific" evidence. Some even believe that sport, or the news media, has some value. Outside of advertising income for the "offshore" obscenely rich.

The greatest barrier against modern acceptance of the "extraordinary" is the jolly band of self-appointed "experts" and even the "whistleblowers." A nice little earner for the "influencer." To to be able to sell their YT sponsor's logos on T-shirts. They should really be printing their fantasies and "theories" straight onto bin bags!

An actual "witness" who doesn't believe all this "UFO nonsense?" Now that is truly "extraordinary," isn't  it? 

You missed the point of the quote. If someone witnesses something 'extraordinary' it is probably something ordinary they can't explain. 

Without physical evidence of something - solid science - all it is, is opinion or belief. And as we know, no science has even been disproven by a belief. But of course, this is no place for such discussion.

[Rusted]

If the "inexplicable" was a No29, red, double decker bus it would [probably] pass unnoticed by several billions. Now lift that same bus off the ground and have it fly in a level, straight line at [say] 50'. Does the No29 become anything but a red, double decker bus? Do you need to be an "expert" [or scientist] studying buses [?] to be a qualified "witness" to the "extraordinary" flight?

Would you, or any other "expert" fail to recognise that bus and describe it down to the last detail? Assuming you could remember to read the fleeting view of the destination boards or number plate. You might remember the advertising banners on the sides. All useful information for the forum "experts" to pontificate upon. The problem is that YOU had to be there. You weren't. Your NO SHOW makes you literally as useless as a family dog as an "expert."

The object, we both saw, had no lifting surfaces. No orifices for exhausts, nor props. No external features at all. A smooth, flat sided, dark, not black, cheese wedge. Somewhere over 20' long. Flying steadily and almost silently over our garden at about 20mph. My wife claimed to have heard a slight hum but my hearing had always been poorer than hers.

The trees and shrubs, on the ground, could be dimly seen in the reflection from the smooth, flat undersides. Its reflective qualities suggested [common or garden] "bright" mild steel sheet, without visible seams, rivets or undulations. Interestingly [?] it followed exactly the same flight path as all the other "planes" which flew over us regularly out of a large, local, UK airfield. We could usually see the rivets and even the pilots if that helps.

These days they give that same fight path a fancy name. While "enthusiasts" cling to mountain sides to capture their passing for YT. It is sickening that nothing "extraordinary" has turned up so far. Thirty years ago it was a film SLR in a drawer somewhere indoors. So we had no "incontrovertible" proof to share with the forum's, self-proclaimed "experts" three decades later. Perhaps "cheese wedges" became obsolete when YouTube invented "Black Triangles?"

I seriously doubt a smart phone could be brought out to useful effect under the brief "fly past." It arrived on a diagonal from beyond a shelter belt of pines at the bottom of our garden. Just as did the countless jet fighters and four engined transports. Which flew over us, on their wing tips, as they banked for the valley beyond. The mountain rescue helicopters usually took another route. But I may have been mistaken. That, being "no real expert" I can't separate a yellow helicopter from a flying saucer. 

[Barry Fitz-Gerald]

1 hour ago, Mr Spock said:

Without physical evidence of something - solid science - all it is, is opinion or belief.

Well, thats not quite true, but observational evidence is still evidence and was the foundation of many branches of contemporary science. When analytical techniques became sufficiently developed then these observations could be quantified and incorporated in to the main corpus of science. Thats how we reached the current state of things in medicine, engineering, science and so on. So it's just as well all those observations were recorded and not junked.

But we have two things going on here:

1) Observation by witnesses - these are as we know mostly miss-identifications of the prosaic, but very very many, such as the multiple witness one cited above are difficult to dismiss - and I am not talking about a light in the sky but structured objects which interact with the environment.  This is observational data, pure and simple which can be evaluated and analysed in the same way as the readings off a dial or data points on a graph.

2) What people believe them to be. Well, if their nature is unknown (the clue is in the first letter of UFO), then it is not possible to comment on their origin beyond the speculative - which of course is the thing most skeptics find had to swallow, and with good cause. The subject has been subsumed by the Conspiracy/New Age agenda, which has introduced a massive element of the ridiculous, making it a target for ridicule (which I understand) but this ridicule also spills over into making fun of the witnesses, who mostly have more to loose than to gain by being honest.

The observations and the beliefs projected on to them are separate issues and should not be confused.

 

[Macavity]

ISTI MIRANT STELLA! 😎



"I'd watch it Harold, Mate - Public Opinion, and all"? 😅

I did see something that apparently "defied the Laws of Physics."
Took off at great speed at "right angles" etc. Unfortunately, I went
indoors to get my Camera! I still don't believe it was E.T. tho. 😛
But, I would be absolutely fascinated...

Edited July 29, 2023 by Macavity

[saac]

5 hours ago, SwiMatt said:

Hell, with the number of astrophotographers on this forum alone, I would expect very high quality proof regularly

 

That will take one really clever stretch and deconvolution algorithm.  I think a stretch too far  

Jim 

[Barry Fitz-Gerald]

8 hours ago, SwiMatt said:

Hell, with the number of astrophotographers on this forum alone, I would expect very high quality proof regularly

As a large proportion of high quality sightings are made during daylight, maybe birdwatchers would be a better bet?

[saac]

7 hours ago, Rusted said:

Until the "extraordinarily unlikely" flies slowly over your rural garden in the presence of your wife.

Memories cannot be undone. They are indelible and unchanging until you stop breathing. Two witnesses, who see exactly the same thing, have an "extraordinary" problem. Neither can deny, to the other, what they each saw quite clearly.

Witnessing the "extraordinary" is most likely to be dismissed by others. Hence the lack of reports and sneering cynicism. Open acceptance of a new "extraordinary" in society would probably bring down that same society. There are nearly 7 billion skittles. Who must follow society's sacred, local rules, or be damned. It was the same throughout history. The local "authority" can easily suppress anything they do not like the sound of. Suppression of "expert" witness reports continues.

Is there a constantly updated P179277[xyz] which "witnesses" can fill out? Then hand into any local police station around the globe? Why not? Because it might affect "national security?" Or undermine some other belief in the mental straitjackets which keep the local pawns cowed?

Countless trillions are spent on developing armaments which are proving quite worthless in real combat. Throw the "extraordinary" [cheap drone or tic-tac] into the afterburner and the whole pack of cards collapses. Or, much more likely,  leads to the announcement of another explosion in "defence" spending?

Forum rules prevent discussion of the "extraordinary" beliefs of billions. Which have not a jot of "scientific" evidence. Some even believe that sport, or the news media, has some value. Outside of advertising income for the "offshore" obscenely rich.

The greatest barrier against modern acceptance of the "extraordinary" is the jolly band of self-appointed "experts" and even the "whistleblowers." A nice little earner for the "influencer." To to be able to sell their YT sponsor's logos on T-shirts. They should really be printing their fantasies and "theories" straight onto bin bags!

An actual "witness" who doesn't believe all this "UFO nonsense?" Now that is truly "extraordinary," isn't  it?    

 

It has nothing to do with acceptance of the extraordinary for the extraordinary has not been presented for examination. You are missing the most obvious and all to apparently inconvenient point, evidence. Evidence; extraordinary claims have been made, time for these claims to be supported. It has absolutely nothing to do with social conventions or social contracts re "sneering" that is an all too convenient excuse to obfuscate the glaring lack of evidence. It is a simple request to those who are making the claims, they are being asked to do no more than other group before them.  

Jim 

[saac]

Looking forward to next week's Congressional Oversight Committee on Flat Earth. 

Jim 

[Rusted]

There have never been more cameras in history, in the hands of the masses. Yet the evidence is still underwhelming. Why? I do not believe in "lights in the sky." Not until I see them for myself. Certainly not those recorded by that unique branch of humanity singularly afflicted by Parkinson's. The first time I saw pairs of satellites moving closely together I was simply being mentally prepared. For observing a whole chain of Muskies. Pulling an invisible sled bearing Father Christmas. 😏
 

 

[Rusted]

31 minutes ago, saac said:

Looking forward to next week's Congressional Oversight Committee on Flat Earth. 

Jim 

The members of which must all publicly swear allegiance to a loving but genocidal maniac up in the sky. Or fail to be elected.
If this post gets past the waiting judges gavels I'll believe in miracles myself. Life! Take him down! 

[saac]

7 minutes ago, Rusted said:

There have never been more cameras in history, in the hands of the masses. Yet the evidence is still underwhelming. Why? I do not believe in "lights in the sky." Not until I see them for myself. Certainly not those recorded by that unique branch of humanity singularly afflicted by Parkinson's. The first time I saw pairs of satellites moving closely together I was simply being mentally prepared. For observing a whole chain of Muskies. Pulling an invisible sled bearing Father Christmas. 😏
 

 

NORAD tracks the big dude in the red suit and his invisible sled every 24 Dec so why are they slacking with regards to our many alien visitors and their overflights. Sorry but questions have to be asked  

Jim 

[Elp]

Aren't we all aliens anyway seeds of which came from passing meteors etc?

[Rusted]

1 minute ago, Elp said:

Aren't we all aliens anyway seeds of which came from passing meteors etc?

No wonder I have no head for heights!