A WARNING on the StarAdventurer GTI

[Adam J]

The first thing that annoyed me with this mount was that its not possible to put the polar scope cover in place if you actually have batteries in the holders, anyone else noticed that?

But having just had to remove the cover to tune my RA worm mesh I can tell you that its one of the worst things I have ever had to deal with, and I am well versed in activities such as astro modifying DSLRs, tuning the AZ GTI and other mounts. Its a mine field of epic proportions and makes me wonder what they were thinking. The mount looks well made and well designed from the outside but once you scratch the surface you realise the number of corners cut to make it to a cost.

SA actually mounted the Main Board on the back of the cover that you need to remove to access the worm gear assembly. This is bad because its not possible to see that the main board is located in such a way until you start trying to pull it off! 

WARNING: DO NOT TRY TO REMOVE THE COVER WITHOUT FIRST REMOVING THE MAIN BOARD FROM THE INSIDE FACE! If you do then you will likely pull connectors out all over the place and potentially damage the board as in their rush to save every penny SW have not made the cables just 3cm longer to allow you to fully remove the cover before having to unscrew the board. As such getting it off is almost impossible, but that is nothing in comparison to putting it back on again ill warn you. Even worse you cant perform common maintenance such as refreshing the lubrication to the RA worm without having to go through this.

The second thing that annoys me is that they have designed the set screw that determines the amount of pressure placed on the spring mounted RA worm in such a way that is is almost inevitable that its going to loosen off over time (the reason for having to open it in the first place). The ring that it threads into is able to rotate relative to the spur and there is sufficient friction between the two such that it will wiggle the screw from side to side every time the direction of movement of the mount is changed and it comes loose as a result. I have now added purple lock tight to mine to prevent it from doing this again others have used PTFE tape I may yet have to go back and do that if its not sufficient.

The next thing is the use of specialist nuts...who has heard of a pig nose nut? Well you will need a specialist tool to undo it so best find out, if you find yourself having to do this. If you have heard of one you will know you need a circlip spanner to undo one. Not a big deal right....well it is a big deal as this one has 1.5mm holes in it and you just try finding a tool with 1.5mm prongs.

In short this thing makes working on the AZ GTI look easy by comparison and I do not recommend that the average user attempts to tune the mount themselves as things are likely to go down hill very fast.

All was ok and its back together and working fine now, but if I had known I would have thought twice about it.

Some general advice to Skywatcher, don't attach things to covers.....people might actually want to take them off. Even if you do then allow for a little slack in the cables. 

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

Adam J

 

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Adam J

[apaulo]

This sounds like very useful info for users of this mount. I am glad i dont have 1.

[Carbon Brush]

I have wondered how how some of the newer mounts could be made so small, for the price.
Thank you. Warning heeded.

[scotty38]

Whether you want to or not is one thing but would the manufacturer say they do not intend for it to be opened up? The manual does say there are no user seviceable parts inside and if anything is needed you should contact tech support. It also says do not disassemble.

[Mr Spock]

I suspect most people won't want to open it up. Like it says on the tin...

[david_taurus83]

How are you finding its performance Adam? Better than the AZGTi? Backlash in Dec was the AZ's Achilles heel

[Carbon Brush]

On the 'no user serviceable parts' comment. Yes the statement is sometimes true. But not very often.
Opening voids warranty is a valid label on some equipment.
Sadly 'contact tech support' often means spend in effect the cost of a replacement on equipment with a 3 digit price tag.
I have found that almost every Skywatcher mount/drive/scope I have encountered has benefitted from my (meddling?) fingers in there.
Whether adjusting backlash on a motor drive, or adjusting a clutch, or adjusting a focusser.
Then we all know about grotty DC sockets with broken joints to the PCB. Fixed in 10 minutes using a soldering iron.
The worst recent case I had was a Skytee2, going in to tighten loose internal grubscrews - to remove significant backlash.

Constructive comments (like those by the OP) on design/construction limitations, weaknesses, or failings, are therefore very welcome.

Clear Skies,

David.

 

[malc-c]

8 hours ago, Adam J said:

SA actually mounted the Main Board on the back of the cover that you need to remove to access the worm gear assembly. This is bad because its not possible to see that the main board is located in such a way until you start trying to pull it off! 

WARNING: DO NOT TRY TO REMOVE THE COVER WITHOUT FIRST REMOVING THE MAIN BOARD FROM THE INSIDE FACE! If you do then you will likely pull connectors out all over the place and potentially damage the board as in their rush to save every penny SW have not made the cables just 3cm longer to allow you to fully remove the cover before having to unscrew the board. As such getting it off is almost impossible, but that is nothing in comparison to putting it back on again ill warn you. Even worse you cant perform common maintenance such as refreshing the lubrication to the RA worm without having to go through this.

That's common practice with a lot of thing, not just telescope mounts.  Mounting the mainboard to a cover plate is nothing new.  The EQ6 has the mainboard attached by standoffs to the metal cover, however in these mounts the cable harnesses to the motors, encoders etc are of significant length to allow the plate with board attached to be removed far enough so access to the connectors is possible without damage to them or the board.  Conversely there are mounts like the HEQ5 where you have to remove all the gearing and stepper motors just to gain access to the two screws that secure the mainboard to the mount.  The one thing in common is that Synta don't want to make access simple and easy.  It is also common to have that claim of "warranty void if cover has been removed" with a little sticker over one of the securing screws. 

One thing I would add is that people should be mindful of UK consumer law, in particular the section that basically states that a consumer would expect the product to last a reasonable amount of time based on the cost.  If you have spent several hundreds of pounds, if not thousands, on a mount you would expect it to last longer than the normal 12 or 24 month warranty.  However if after the warranty period you brake that seal then they are with in their right to charge for any fix rather than be cornered to repair it free of charge should the mount fail just a couple of months outside the warranty.

I do think the "no serviceable parts" is a misnomer.  I've repaired several mainboards, often replacing the microcontrollers so these boards are serviceable.  Granted the newer mounts use ARM processors and need more than a soldering iron to repair them, but it's still doable. 

Thanks for posting your findings.. maybe the admin can make your OP a sticky in the relevant section so that the warning doesn't get buried.

[Adam J]

1 hour ago, scotty38 said:

Whether you want to or not is one thing but would the manufacturer say they do not intend for it to be opened up? The manual does say there are no user seviceable parts inside and if anything is needed you should contact tech support. It also says do not disassemble.

Well not by the average user, clearly for an advanced user there are user serviceable parts as I just serviced it lol.

1 hour ago, Mr Spock said:

I suspect most people won't want to open it up. Like it says on the tin...

1 hour ago, Carbon Brush said:

On the 'no user serviceable parts' comment. Yes the statement is sometimes true. But not very often.
Opening voids warranty is a valid label on some equipment.

No Label but did have the option to return it under warranty, FLO gave me the option to have a go at fixing it myself (which I now have), but only as I asked their permission before proceeding, it was some time ago but I only got around to doing it recently as the problem got progressively worse. I suspect that the real issue is that light users may not encounter this problem until after the warranty has expired and inexperienced users may not notice until it progresses and gets much worse such that tracking is more strongly effected. 

 

1 hour ago, david_taurus83 said:

How are you finding its performance Adam? Better than the AZGTi? Backlash in Dec was the AZ's Achilles heel

You can dither the mount without issue if you choose your dither settings with care, never got that to work with the AZ GTI. Its also much more solid than the AZ GTI and tracking is better with the same load so suspect it could handle a bigger load. That is despite me turning my old AZ GTI. The RA drive (once you get to the thing) is visibly more robust that that of the AZ GTI.  That is not to say that there is not still a relatively large amount of dec backlash though., in the end it still uses planetary gear boxes ans those are the biggest source (once the worm is adjusted correctly).

 

Its not all bad but I doubt ill be the last person to service it and so my experience is likely to help someone. 

 

Adam

Edited May 24, 2023 by Adam J

[Adam J]

5 minutes ago, malc-c said:

However if after the warranty period you brake that seal then they are with in their right to charge for any fix rather than be cornered to repair it free of charge should the mount fail just a couple of months outside the warranty.

As above, as it was under warranty I had asked permission to attempt the maintenance myself before proceeding. In the end, I managed to avoid the potential pit falls and it was a success. 

Adam

Edited May 24, 2023 by Adam J

[apaulo]

I  think the manufacturers warranty reflects the makers life expectancy of the product. I bought an item a while back it came with  6 years full manufacturers warranty, that tells me, these guys like this product. What do we get with over priced astro tat, 12 months . It speaks for itself.

[malc-c]

Adam, I've reported your OP to the team with a request to make the first post a sticky post so it's always available as it will prevent others damaging their mainboard or connectors.

[Adam J]

Just now, apaulo said:

I  think the manufacturers warranty reflects the makers life expectancy of the product. I bought an item a while back it came with  6 years full manufacturers warranty, that tells me, these guys like this product. What do we get with over priced astro tat, 12 months . It speaks for itself.

Two years I think for most things. 

Adam

[apaulo]

2 years haha must be extra special tat

[malc-c]

1 minute ago, apaulo said:

I  think the manufacturers warranty reflects the makers life expectancy of the product. I bought an item a while back it came with  6 years full manufacturers warranty, that tells me, these guys like this product. What do we get with over priced astro tat, 12 months . It speaks for itself.

The good thing in favour of the consumer is that there are so many mounts whos design hasn't changed over decades that are still functional after 10+ years of service, so when a mount fails 30 months down the line you are in a good position under UK law to have it fixed without charge

[scotty38]

52 minutes ago, Carbon Brush said:

On the 'no user serviceable parts' comment. Yes the statement is sometimes true. But not very often.
Opening voids warranty is a valid label on some equipment.
Sadly 'contact tech support' often means spend in effect the cost of a replacement on equipment with a 3 digit price tag.
I have found that almost every Skywatcher mount/drive/scope I have encountered has benefitted from my (meddling?) fingers in there.
Whether adjusting backlash on a motor drive, or adjusting a clutch, or adjusting a focusser.
Then we all know about grotty DC sockets with broken joints to the PCB. Fixed in 10 minutes using a soldering iron.
The worst recent case I had was a Skytee2, going in to tighten loose internal grubscrews - to remove significant backlash.

Constructive comments (like those by the OP) on design/construction limitations, weaknesses, or failings, are therefore very welcome.

Clear Skies,

David.

 

I would agree with this, my point if it was missed, was that the manufacturer said don't open it so to then suggest it's hard to open and maintain would probably get a response along the lines of "well we did say not to do it". I totally get that most on here are capable and may well want to do it but would have to accept that the manufacturer hasn't necessarily made it (or needed to make it) easy to do so.

I also agree that the info should be made available to all that want to do it.....

[Adam J]

31 minutes ago, malc-c said:

The good thing in favour of the consumer is that there are so many mounts whos design hasn't changed over decades that are still functional after 10+ years of service, so when a mount fails 30 months down the line you are in a good position under UK law to have it fixed without charge

Yes but 'how' would they (SW not FLO) 'fix it' if I had chosen to send it back under warranty?? Would they just re-adjust the screw only for it to keep working its way out again and again?? There is also the fact that if it had been done properly (using purple lock-tight or equivalent) in the first place I would not need to be doing it at all. 

Honestly in many ways I have more confidence in myself when it comes to a lasting fix, but this one did stretch the skill set for sure. 

Adam

Edited May 24, 2023 by Adam J

[900SL]

I decided a while back never to buy anything from Skywatcher ever again. Whilst they do provide a gateway into the hobby, They are not that cheap when you factor in how badly they are designed, manufactured and assembled. Basically money down the drain in my experience. 

It's kinda amusing that for a product that requires precision, they churn out anything but.

I should TM 'making mechanics out of astronomers'

[Adam J]

1 minute ago, 900SL said:

I decided a while back never to buy anything from Skywatcher ever again. Whilst they do provide a gateway into the hobby, They are not that cheap when you factor in how badly they are designed, manufactured and assembled. Basically money down the drain in my experience. 

It's kinda amusing that for a product that requires precision, they churn out anything but.

I should TM 'making mechanics out of astronomers'

Oh they do sometimes make a good one, I had a HEQ5 Pro that was the best tracking mount i have ever used. <0.5 RMS on a regular basis. 

 

[900SL]

3 minutes ago, Adam J said:

Oh they do sometimes make a good one, I had a HEQ5 Pro that was the best tracking mount i have ever used. <0.5 RMS on a regular basis. 

 

The Esprit scopes also seem to get good mentions. One could almost think SW have a group of separate and disconnected suppliers / subcontractors or something.

Once bitten however...

Edited May 24, 2023 by 900SL

[Astroscot2]

I wonder how common it is for the RA adjustment screw to become loose on this mount?  Reason I say this  is that Ive owned my SA GTI for nearly a year and used it a lot,  during normal operation I do loosen the DEC axis so I can view through the polar scope but rarely touch the RA adjustment due to my set up.

Adam was this an issue from when you received the GTI or noticable over tim?,  something I may need to watch out for.

 

Mark

[Stu1smartcookie]

7 minutes ago, 900SL said:

I decided a while back never to buy anything from Skywatcher ever again. Whilst they do provide a gateway into the hobby, They are not that cheap when you factor in how badly they are designed, manufactured and assembled. Basically money down the drain in my experience. 

It's kinda amusing that for a product that requires precision, they churn out anything but.

I should TM 'making mechanics out of astronomers'

Mass production will inevitably lead to some poor quality . a disapointing yet familiar tale .

[saac]

I must admit I've never had any problem with any of my Sky Watcher kit.  I have, in acquired order, an Equinox 80ED Pro, an AZGTNEQ6 mount, an AZGTi holding my WO RedCat and a recently acquired Esprit 120 ED Pro.  I haven't really put the AZGTi through its paces yet but the NEQ 6 just works perfectly.   I'm itching to get the Esprit 120 on the mount and catching light, err roll on winter  

Jim 

[Carbon Brush]

Apologies if this thought to be wandering off topic.
Warranty period applied by a manufacturer is not (in my view) necessarily indicative of quality.
I am speaking as someone involved in designing and building for B2B sale, not retail.

Some years ago I visited a car battery manufacturer and had a chat with their production engineers.
Having recently been through replacing a battery that I thought had failed early, I was interested to know the construction & chemistry differences between their batteries.
Some retailed with one year warranty, some up to 5 years warranty.
I was told that they were all exactly the same product.

Basically there is a preceived/calculated risk of failure, increasing with time.
Balancing this is the car not being with the original purcjhaser when the battery fails, or the paper trail being lost.
So battery with one year warranty sells for £50, 2 years £55, 3 years £63, 4 years £70....You get the idea.

When deciding on warranty period, you also need to look at what your competitors are offering.
I recall 30 years ago a lot of USA consumer/commercial electronics came with 3 months warranty!
Nobody in the UK would consider anything less than one year.

With something like a scope mount, the original owner & paper trail factors should apply more than time related failure.

HTH, David.

 

 

 

[Adam J]

1 hour ago, Astroscot2 said:

I wonder how common it is for the RA adjustment screw to become loose on this mount?  Reason I say this  is that Ive owned my SA GTI for nearly a year and used it a lot,  during normal operation I do loosen the DEC axis so I can view through the polar scope but rarely touch the RA adjustment due to my set up.

Adam was this an issue from when you received the GTI or noticable over tim?,  something I may need to watch out for.

 

Mark

Noticed over time, I kept having to re-adjust it as it kept coming loose. You can access the screw it's under the label. But once set it should not move and yet it does, very annoying. Mine was one of the first in the UK so might be teething problems on the first batch. There is a thread about it on cloudy nights with some others reporting the issues. 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by Adam J