Skywatcher Quattro 10 spring upgrade

[Craig a]

I’m thinking of upgrading the collimation springs on my 10 inch skywatcher Quattro but have no idea what springs I need to do the job, can anyone point me I the right direction please I’d appreciate it very much 

[Steve Ward]

Why do you feel the need to "upgrade" something , especially when you don't even know what the factory items are or what would constitute an "upgrade" ... ?

[Craig a]

Collimation springs on skywatcher Newtonians are known to be not of the best quality and as a result don’t hold collimation well, I know this to be true as my own said scope doesn’t hold Collimation well, i collimated mine last week and even though I’ve not used it since collimation has changed when I looked yesterday, it’s not the first time it’s happened either. Quite a few people have upgraded their springs to stiffer ones but added 3 extra passive springs on the locking screws aswell and reports are much better of the holding collimation, I think this will be something more true with a bigger heavier mirror like I have.

[CraigT82]

Have a look at the currently fitted springs and measure them you can. In particular if you can get a calliper on the wire to see what diameter the wire is that would be useful.

Spring strength comes from the amount of metal in the springs, so if you can get new springs with either more fewer coils for a given length, or thicker wire then they will be stronger.

You will likely want your new springs to match the overall diameter and length of the originals.

If you can’t find ones that will work then buying one longer length of spring and cutting it down would work, but you’d need to dress the cut ends to make them flat.This is what I did with my 300p and I used a blowtorch, pliers and a file to do this. I bought 2mm diameter wire spring which is seriously strong. 

Edit: Made a mistake, reducing the number of coils increased the spring rate, not increasing

Edited October 17, 2022 by CraigT82

[TheThing]

Bob's Knobs do springs as well as, well, knobs.  Replaced them on my old Soligor many years ago and they hold collimation really well, still.

[Craig a]

I managed to to source some stainless springs, 2mm wire thickness and hopefully the correct diameter and length 😃

[Craig a]

Ok springs arrived today and blimey can hardily compress them with my fingers 😂

will have a go at fitting them this weekend and report back 

[ollypenrice]

On 17/10/2022 at 16:41, CraigT82 said:

 

If you can’t find ones that will work then buying one longer length of spring and cutting it down would work, but you’d need to dress the cut ends to make them flat.This is what I did with my 300p and I used a blowtorch, pliers and a file to do this. I bought 2mm diameter wire spring which is seriously strong. 

 

I'd have thought that, if you used a blowtorch on a spring, you'd change its metallurgical temper and, potentially, ruin it. I'm sure someone with metallurgical knowledge could give us chapter and verse but I wouldn't be too casual about heating a spring, myself.

Olly

[Craig a]

6 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

I'd have thought that, if you used a blowtorch on a spring, you'd change its metallurgical temper and, potentially, ruin it. I'm sure someone with metallurgical knowledge could give us chapter and verse but I wouldn't be too casual about heating a spring, myself.

Olly

I’m hoping my measurements were near enough that I don’t need to do any heating or cutting, fingers crossed 

but I think you are onto something about heating a spring, I do know that heating metal re aligns the molecules or something along those lines, when I dig up bent fine silver coins metal detecting and want to straighten them heating them up and plunging into cold water before straightening stops them getting splits etc 

[CraigT82]

44 minutes ago, ollypenrice said:

I'd have thought that, if you used a blowtorch on a spring, you'd change its metallurgical temper and, potentially, ruin it. I'm sure someone with metallurgical knowledge could give us chapter and verse but I wouldn't be too casual about heating a spring, myself.

Olly

Yeah probably. If I was working on a valve spring for an F1 engine I’d be concerned about that but for a collimation spring in a budget amateur telescope it works fine…. My springs are still very springy. 

[RolandKol]

Hi mate, I would disagree about default springs on SW...

Not sure about Quattro, but my 130PDS primary holds collimation almost rock solid... Simply collimate it fully back (away from the secondary), - as much as possible, - in my case even locking bolts are not used and collimation is the same as springs are squeezed almost to the limits.
Another question is the focuser.... SW use quite cheap ones and yes, each time you put something IN, you get a slightly different view, - it may be to due tool locking mechanism, drawtube tilt and etc.

Do not hurry, check the focuser first, - check via Cheshire once it is vertical, later once it horizontal, take it out, put it back and check again without moving the scope at all.

Edited November 2, 2022 by RolandKol

[Craig a]

11 hours ago, RolandKol said:

Hi mate, I would disagree about default springs on SW...

Not sure about Quattro, but my 130PDS primary holds collimation almost rock solid... Simply collimate it fully back (away from the secondary), - as much as possible, - in my case even locking bolts are not used and collimation is the same as springs are squeezed almost to the limits.
Another question is the focuser.... SW use quite cheap ones and yes, each time you put something IN, you get a slightly different view, - it may be to due tool locking mechanism, drawtube tilt and etc.

Do not hurry, check the focuser first, - check via Cheshire once it is vertical, later once it horizontal, take it out, put it back and check again without moving the scope at all.

Hi there, the mirror on the 130 is much lighter than the 10 inch in my Quattro my own 130 is fine with collimation, I Carnt see the focuser being at fault as I’ve fitted a moonlite to it, it’s been squared etc it’s been a pain to hold collimation since I’ve have it, for the cost of new stronger springs it Carnt do any harm and it gives me somthing to do while the weather is giving us all misery, thanks for the input 

[alacant]

On 17/10/2022 at 15:50, Craig a said:

point me I the right direction

Hi

10" Quattro, so 1.6 x 15 x 20mm from here. Specify the size in the comments section at the checkout.

+1 for the three passive springs too; six in total.

Besides the springs, perhaps the best upgrade on a Quattro is to seal the mirror to the cell using neutral silicone sealant; a generous blob coinciding with the existing contact points. This prevents lateral movement of the mirror whilst still allowing for thermal expansion and contraction. If you have the steel tube, this benefits from a longer Losmandy dovetail plate. Complete the tube stiffening by fitting a rigid box-section aluminium profile to tie the top of the rings

If you're aiming for the best possible stars, use an OAG too.

Conclusion: a Quattro which holds collimation at all angles. Not just the one at which you collimated.

Cheers and HTH

Edited November 3, 2022 by alacant
vinculo

[Craig a]

On 03/11/2022 at 07:18, alacant said:

Hi

10" Quattro, so 1.6 x 15 x 20mm from here. Specify the size in the comments section at the checkout.

+1 for the three passive springs too; six in total.

Besides the springs, perhaps the best upgrade on a Quattro is to seal the mirror to the cell using neutral silicone sealant; a generous blob coinciding with the existing contact points. This prevents lateral movement of the mirror whilst still allowing for thermal expansion and contraction. If you have the steel tube, this benefits from a longer Losmandy dovetail plate. Complete the tube stiffening by fitting a rigid box-section aluminium profile to tie the top of the rings

If you're aiming for the best possible stars, use an OAG too.

Conclusion: a Quattro which holds collimation at all angles. Not just the one at which you collimated.

Cheers and HTH

I have the carbon tube version that I’ve fitted 355mm losmandy plates top and bottom, regarding siliconing the mirror to the cell, is this safe with such a heavy mirror? I did it on me 130pds and had no worries on a mirror of that size but I’m abit more nervous about doing that to my Quattro?

I already use an OAG I think this is a must for any Newtonian really 

Edited November 4, 2022 by Craig a

[alacant]

2 hours ago, Craig a said:

safe with such a heavy mirror

It's the only way we've found of preventing the mirror sliding in its cell as the tube changes angle. If you're concerned about the mirror falling from the cell, just leave the clips in place.

[Craig a]

1 hour ago, alacant said:

It's the only way we've found of preventing the mirror sliding in its cell as the tube changes angle. If you're concerned about the mirror falling from the cell, just leave the clips in place.

So my mirror was on 3 round bits of cork, do I get rid of the cork and put a blob of silicone there instead? 

[alacant]

43 minutes ago, Craig a said:

get rid of the cork

No. Apply a generous blob of neutral silicone to the cork, degrease the underside of the mirror and place it (don't push it) back in the cell. Leave it on a level surface, that a silicone sample of approximately the same mass, taken at the same time, reverts to its original shape when distorted: ~24h @ 20° ambient.

HTH

[Craig a]

2 minutes ago, alacant said:

No. Apply a generous blob of neutral silicone to the cork, degrease the underside of the mirror and place it (don't push it) back in the cell. Leave it on a level surface, that a silicone sample of approximately the same mass, taken at the same time, reverts to its original shape when distorted: ~24h @ 20° ambient.

HTH

Cheers, the springs are fitted and mirror is cleaned thought I might aswell while it’s out, just waiting for the mirror to dry before I give it the silicone treatment, I will still put the mirror clips back on for peace of mind 

[alacant]

You are now very close to witnessing one of the tiny subset (sic) of Quattros which hold collimation!

[Craig a]

Sorted, it’s now sat on its silicone blobs on the kitchen worktop fully loaded with new springs 

[david_taurus83]

Sorry to thread hijack but my issue is kind of relevant. I disassembled my 200P mirror cell yesterday (managed to loose hold of the screwdriver somehow on the mirror clips and scratched the primary slightly 🙄😤😭), gave the cork pads a blob of silicone, some new springs etc and reassembled everything. However on reflection, I think I have tightened the clips too tightly. I have read elsewhere that it is common practice to be able to slide a bit of paper between clips and mirror so to avoid pinching. This may be OK for observing but how about if the main goal is imaging? @alacant should I keep the clips in firm contact with the mirror or allow a tiny gap?

[Skyline]

To be honest about it. My Quattro 150P holds collimation quite well, hardly need to tweak the primary. 

[Craig a]

2 hours ago, david_taurus83 said:

Sorry to thread hijack but my issue is kind of relevant. I disassembled my 200P mirror cell yesterday (managed to loose hold of the screwdriver somehow on the mirror clips and scratched the primary slightly 🙄😤😭), gave the cork pads a blob of silicone, some new springs etc and reassembled everything. However on reflection, I think I have tightened the clips too tightly. I have read elsewhere that it is common practice to be able to slide a bit of paper between clips and mirror so to avoid pinching. This may be OK for observing but how about if the main goal is imaging? @alacant should I keep the clips in firm contact with the mirror or allow a tiny gap?

A very very slight gap like the thickness of a cigarette paper, the silicone will hold the mirror perfectly well so some never put the clips back in but I like abit of security just incase, best be safe than sorry 

[Craig a]

Just to note I have had a couple of nights with my new spring and silicone mod and yes it’s much much better at holding collimation at any angle 

[alacant]

5 hours ago, david_taurus83 said:

the main goal is imaging

Hi

200p so we'd recommend losing the mirror clips altogether. If you must replace them, they should not touch the mirror. If you have silicone, the size of the gap doesn't matter.

Cheers and HTH