Street lights and persuading local authorities to dim them

[ONIKKINEN]

On 02/02/2022 at 16:22, Louis D said:

Having bright streetlights can be counterproductive when people forget to turn on their headlights because the roads are so bright.  Sure, they can see the road just fine, but other drivers can't see that car nearly as easily as if their headlights and taillights were on.  I'll flash my high beams at them when I pass them, but they always remain oblivious.  Following them, I notice that they only turn them on once they enter an area without streetlighting.

This doesn't apply to GM and other cars that have sensors to automatically turn on the car's lights at twilight and during wiper usage.  It surprises me this feature hasn't been mandated for all cars by now.

Until a few years ago here in Finland it was mandatory for all motor vehicles to have lights on at all times when driving regardless of how bright it is outside, so there really was no situation where you can forget to put them on. The law was changed to lights only being mandatory for when its dark and now some cars have this kind of automatic daylight-headlight switch when it gets dark or just the good old lights on at all times for cars that dont have this feature. I dont know anyone who for some reason toggles off their lights for daytime and almost everyone just keeps them on if they dont have the automatic lights.

The benefit in this is that you cant forget they are on, and you can notice when your lights are burnt in daytime (well the police can notice and remind you with a fine😁). Not that many negatives really, since if its bright enough outside to not need lights, its bright enough for the lights to not bother anyone.

[cajen2]

7 minutes ago, wulfrun said:

That didn't work for me. The sodium one almost outside my house died but was fixed in 2 days (no I didn't report the failure). Only to be replaced with LED not long after, typical "efficiency" there then!

They're obviously more 'switched on' in Wolverhampton! 😆

[Mr Spock]

We were promised less light pollution from the new LED lights. So now instead of having an eastern side bright orange and western side reasonably dark, I have a uniform grey sky and can't see the milky way any more 

[Virgo man]

Hi buddy I to live in small town outskirts of Glasgow in Scotland I got the local council to put led lights in street which helps but they would not dim lights or turn off at night as you say nobody out at night but it’s just the same as everybody else they won’t turn off you would think with the energy prices the would start turning off but no 😡good luck anyway cheers rob.

[woldsman]

UPDATE:  rapid and seemingly positive response to request for shields. Well, I say request - I cited a 2005 piece of legislation that includes street lights in a list of “statutory nuisances”. Argued growth of village had increased car use, created the “conflict area”, resulted in 3 streetlights being put up and hence caused the nuisance. Since the council had ruled out dimming or turning them off, shielding was the only remaining option. Seems to have worked. I  raised the matter with the local parish council  and they took it up with the county council. 

[jock1958]

The local council changed the street light at the front of my house a few years ago without any hassle.
I posted some pics on page 2 of this thread a few years ago. 

 

Edited February 9, 2022 by jock1958

[Penumbrella]

I've not been as successful as others in this - I wrote to the council here about two streetlights, one shining directly into my daughters bedroom at the front of the house and one overlooking my back garden where I set-up the scope, from the side street. They promptly responsed and said it needed a 'formal investigation', sent someone round who seemed very understanding and took some light measurements, but told me "the office" would decide off the back of those numbers. A couple of weeks later I got a response saying that "The readings show that the lighting levels against your property are within the recommended range for this class of road. " adding that "As a result of this, I am unable to take any further action, such as installing back shields.". 

Considering the experience of others, maybe i'll try again - though I'll be honest that I'm not that hopeful. 

 

 

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

2 minutes ago, Penumbrella said:

I've not been as successful as others in this - I wrote to the council here about two streetlights, one shining directly into my daughters bedroom at the front of the house and one overlooking my back garden where I set-up the scope, from the side street. They promptly responsed and said it needed a 'formal investigation', sent someone round who seemed very understanding and took some light measurements, but told me "the office" would decide off the back of those numbers. A couple of weeks later I got a response saying that "The readings show that the lighting levels against your property are within the recommended range for this class of road. " adding that "As a result of this, I am unable to take any further action, such as installing back shields.". 

Considering the experience of others, maybe i'll try again - though I'll be honest that I'm not that hopeful. 

 

 

Typical jobsworths. 🙄 I know I felt I had to report the street LED in two occasions due to a number of months passing without a reply (although potentially I may have been impatient...) however they didn't even notify me - one evening I looked into the conservatory and it was dark! I hope you get sorted.

[Carbon Brush]

@Penumbrella Your first 'complaint' is partly about 'normal' people not liking a light shining into a bedroom. As opposed to these odd folks who hang about outside for hours in the dark🤣.
Your second complaint is about light intruding (trespassing) into your back garden.

To the best of my knowledge, nuisance, where from light or sound, is that perceived by the individual. Not a fixed number.
If you perceive a nuisance in the house or garden, go straight to the Environmental Health officer. Not the street light jobsworth with the light level meter.

You have a street light that is causing a nuisance by intruding into your property.
Unless things have changed since I last checked, Environmental Health have a statutory duty to investigate and if they agree with you, they take whater action is required, at their cost, to control the nuisance.

The important thing is that nuisance is largely measured by what you report. Not a fixed number of lumens/candles/whatever.

If there is the slightest hint of reticence, you can easily ramp things up.
Just one example. There are plenty of studies you can look up about quality of sleep in the light.
Report how you are bothered about your daughters well being, performance at school, etc.
Would the council like to buy and fit blackout blinds to my property?
What about in summer when I leave bedroom windows open?
A shield starts to look like an easy and low cost option to get you to shut up.

Keep at them. You will get plenty of support and ideas from SGL members.

David.

[Aramcheck]

Street lights are exempt from the 'statutory nuisance' lighting definition under the Environment Protection Act 1990.

If Environmental Health are unwilling to help, then try your local Councilor(s). They will have more clought.

I would have thought that you should be able to get a shield fitted to the streetlight directly affecting your daughters bedroom, but the other one will be more difficult to justify.

Cheers
Ivor

[Louis D]

Check out this almost 7 year old AMA bulletin about blue intense LED outdoor lighting.  Perhaps refer to it when complaining locally.  There's probably a UK equivalent warning out there as well.

[Zermelo]

8 minutes ago, Louis D said:

Check out this almost 7 year old AMA bulletin about blue intense LED outdoor lighting.  Perhaps refer to it when complaining locally.  There's probably a UK equivalent warning out there as well.

Our Commission for Dark Skies also refers to the AMA position, as well as quoting a local academic.
They also warn specifically on the effects of blue-rich artificial light.

 

[woldsman]

An update on this. Four months on, I’ve been contacted by a council official who is paying a visit soon. Reading previous posts about similar visits is helpful prep. 

[Carbon Brush]

Do you know what department he is working from?
Any idea about qualifications, experience, etc in the light area?
Might be worth checking him out.
Take a look on his Linked In profile for starters.

Don't forget a mid summer visit os not representative of the light intrusion in winter.
Ensure he realises this.

Sorry if this sounds forceful, but it your opportunity to move things forward. You need all information in your pocket - if not waved.
My February comments are still valid.

HTH, David.

[Stickey]

In Presteigne in Wales, they're gradually replacing the street lights with Amber ones. Have a look at this - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-61676618

Good luck with the visit.

[Louis D]

Jeff Davis County, Texas, which includes both the McDonald Observatory and the Prude Ranch (home of the annual Texas Star Party), Fort Davis, and the Davis Mountains has very strict lighting regulations to preserve the night skies there.  Streetlights are flat, deep red paddles that I've never seen elsewhere.  Homeowners, businesses and ranchers all work together to keep the skies pristine out there.  At night, it's eerie in downtown Fort Davis because business signs are dim and many stores have blackout shades to prevent light from escaping their interiors.

[Astro_Dad]

Currently in discussions with my local councillors and MP on this issue - live in an astro friendly Bortle 4 area but some of the local lighting decisions seem out of kilter with the recent local dark sky reserve designation - this issue needs greater attention, but suffers from lack of knowledge and appreciation.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Astro_Dad

[Paul M]

All the street lighting in my immediate area was changed to LED a while ago. Initially I thought is was good. The lighting in the steets seems dimmer, less obtrusive and better directed /shielded yet my home sky continues to be ever more bleached. I know my eyes are not the youthfull light buckets they once were but, visually, I'm losing all but the bright stuff. 

Unfortunately I think human psyche drives us towards ever more lighting, fear of the dark and denial of the natural world

Good luck with your MP. I hope they engage respectfully and enthusistically.

[Zermelo]

15 hours ago, Paul M said:

Unfortunately I think human psyche drives us towards ever more lighting, fear of the dark and denial of the natural world

"In their fear your forefathers gathered you too near together. A little longer shall your city walls separate your hearths from your fields."
...

"For that which is boundless in you abides in the mansion of the sky, whose door is the morning mist, and whose windows are the songs and the silences of the night."

Kahlil Gibran, The Prophet

[Gomtuu]

I complained to Plymouth City Council when they replaced the sodium one outside my property with an LED one (I had a filter for the sodium one) and asked for a shield to be fitted.
To their credit, they didn't even question it and fitted one immediately. That said, I told them it was because it was shining directly into my bedroom, rather than for astronomy.

[McQ]

I asked about the type of light outside my house and city doesn't know, a very nice woman said it's not on the bill and told me how to find out. So then I asked for shielding, we'll see how that goes. The lights are nice for discouraging trouble makers but they spray light every direction. 

Photo, 11pm.

[Louis D]

That's ridiculously bright.  We've got one street light every second street on the main street that our side streets hang off of.  There are no street lights on the side streets.

[Guest]

The local grain elevator recently upgraded their security lighting due to theft issues.  This forced me to build a light barrier for my observing area.  I just realized last night how much light they put out when I opened the bedroom  windows on a cool evening.  I guess since emails don't work I will have to go pay them a visit and ask that they shield their lights 

[ED Splitter]

Interesting thread. I think the more we pollute our view of the stars the more we loose a natural connection with science. 
in terms of a move to better lighting, similar to the approach of nuisance rather than astronomy, you’re better going after improvements for reasons of ecology. The leds used are near white light in spectrum and disrupt birds, bats etc. New developments near roosting or foraging corridors are required to install lighting schemes that don’t disrupt these animals night time foraging.  
Ecology and astronomy interests would make good bedfellows.