Risingcam IMX571 not a gamble?

[scotty38]

1 minute ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Really like this feature in NINA too.

Here is what my files look like:

YYYY-MM-DD - Time - exposure - number in sequence - Guide error in RMS arcseconds during the exposure - Target name - HFR in pixels - number of stars

Its easy to remove clearly outlying subs from hundreds by just glancing at the file names. Saves a lot of time in the end when picking and choosing the best quality subs for a stack.

Try using the DateMinus12 then you don't get the day change when you go by midnight either, that's a game changer 🙂 🙂 🙂

[tomato]

I use Gain 100 and offset 768 with the RisingCam571 OSC, native driver in NINA. This gives a very similar result to the QHY 268c in DSO mode.

[TareqPhoto]

So that setting of Gain 100 and offset 768, do you use it for narrowbanding or broadbanding targets? What if you mix both of a target?

[tomato]

I never change them, I use 2 minute exposures for broadband and 3 minute exposures when using a NBZ dual band filter, from a Bortle 5/6 location.

[TareqPhoto]

Ok, that is nice to fix Gain and Offset and just play with exposure value, that will make the job easier, i have to find out which exposure values under my Bortle 8/9, for narrowbanding i can easily do 5-10 minutes if i have to, but i can just live with 3-5 minute if that is sufficient, but it will put me in the issue of storage space with this camera files, i need to prepare more drives then.

[Phillyo]

So I'm still having some interesting issues with this camera that I can't figure out. I have created a post over on the Risingcam AP Facebook page so I'll copy and paste that here with image examples and hopefully someone can point me in the direction of where I'm going wrong!

"Good afternoon,
I'm having some issues with my Risingcam (colour) camera and wondering if anyone can help. I'm imaging through the Antlia ALP-T 5nm filter and a Samyang 135mm lens stopped down to around f3.5 using stop down rings. I'm getting really bad vignetting, even after using flats, dark flats and darks. The image is also very noisy and after I run ABE/DBE (to deal with the vignetting) I get a halo ring type effect around the middle of the image.
I have the dew heater on and I have dew straps around the lens (and guide scope) and I've checked during the night and there's no dew forming that I can see. I'm using NINA with the native Risingcam drivers. Eddie from Risingcam has suggested I try the Ascom drivers to see if that helps? Also, during the night I'll have a bunch of frames that are just white/grey with no detail and lots of banding lines across like the sensor has just messed up. Maybe 3 or 4 from 100 or so images but for no apparent reason.
I'll upload some images as examples to this post to hopefully show my issues.

Finally, I did a sensor analysis of the camera using Sharpcap, but I noticed that even doing that analysis with the camera/sensor directly on top of my white panel and no lens in the way I'm seeing vignetting in the image. Is that normal?
Thanks for any help and sorry for the long post!"

I have attached the 'bad frame', the vignetting from the sensor, a master flat and the resulting image that has only had background neutralisation and colour calibration before being stretched to remove the green element from the RGGB sensor. This is approx 6 hours of data I believe.
Phil

[Ratlet]

40 minutes ago, Phillyo said:

So I'm still having some interesting issues with this camera that I can't figure out. I have created a post over on the Risingcam AP Facebook page so I'll copy and paste that here with image examples and hopefully someone can point me in the direction of where I'm going wrong!

"Good afternoon,
I'm having some issues with my Risingcam (colour) camera and wondering if anyone can help. I'm imaging through the Antlia ALP-T 5nm filter and a Samyang 135mm lens stopped down to around f3.5 using stop down rings. I'm getting really bad vignetting, even after using flats, dark flats and darks. The image is also very noisy and after I run ABE/DBE (to deal with the vignetting) I get a halo ring type effect around the middle of the image.
I have the dew heater on and I have dew straps around the lens (and guide scope) and I've checked during the night and there's no dew forming that I can see. I'm using NINA with the native Risingcam drivers. Eddie from Risingcam has suggested I try the Ascom drivers to see if that helps? Also, during the night I'll have a bunch of frames that are just white/grey with no detail and lots of banding lines across like the sensor has just messed up. Maybe 3 or 4 from 100 or so images but for no apparent reason.
I'll upload some images as examples to this post to hopefully show my issues.

Finally, I did a sensor analysis of the camera using Sharpcap, but I noticed that even doing that analysis with the camera/sensor directly on top of my white panel and no lens in the way I'm seeing vignetting in the image. Is that normal?
Thanks for any help and sorry for the long post!"

I have attached the 'bad frame', the vignetting from the sensor, a master flat and the resulting image that has only had background neutralisation and colour calibration before being stretched to remove the green element from the RGGB sensor. This is approx 6 hours of data I believe.
Phil

What is the first image you have posted, the one with the banding?

I've had weird halos on images, once was caused by an issue with my flats, the other was ABE.

For the flats I'm not sure the issue but it seems to have been sorted by going dimmer therefore making the flat exposures longer.  I also use the flat panel wizard on Nina.

This showed up on the images before automatic background extraction.

With the ABE there is a bit underinterpolation and output for function degree that defaults to 4. Try setting it to 1 as I've found leaving it on default can cause some weirdness.

 

Edit:. Just worked out the first one is the frame with the banding. 

 

What does your master dark look like if you apply an autostretch to it?

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Ratlet
I'm an idiot.

[Phillyo]

6 hours ago, Ratlet said:

What is the first image you have posted, the one with the banding?

I've had weird halos on images, once was caused by an issue with my flats, the other was ABE.

For the flats I'm not sure the issue but it seems to have been sorted by going dimmer therefore making the flat exposures longer.  I also use the flat panel wizard on Nina.

This showed up on the images before automatic background extraction.

With the ABE there is a bit underinterpolation and output for function degree that defaults to 4. Try setting it to 1 as I've found leaving it on default can cause some weirdness.

 

Edit:. Just worked out the first one is the frame with the banding. 

 

What does your master dark look like if you apply an autostretch to it?

 

I've tried that but it made no difference.

I'm more worried that the flats aren't removing the vignette, and the random bad frames in the middle of an imaging session for no reason. I'm a little worried I've bought a dud camera

Thank you for the reply.

Phil

[ONIKKINEN]

Ill take some flats with mine without any optics in front of the camera to check for the vignetting thing. The top image is a bit concerning, my first bet would be some kind of power supply related issue that is causing the camera to malfunction, but it could very well also be some kind of fault with your camera.

The actual image with vignetting you posted clearly shows that the flats have simply not done anything. Post a single raw flat frame (choose one randomly) and a single light frame* in .FITS format and maybe we could help a bit more. Just guessing without the actual data.

Just checking to be sure, but you have at least 700 offset and use the same offset for all calibration frames and light frames? Probably do, but just making sure.

*Calibrated flat frame, and calibrated light frame. Or one of each type of image.

Edited October 18, 2022 by ONIKKINEN
*details

[ONIKKINEN]

Linear PNG screenshot from Siril:

Screen stretch mode set to Histogram in Siril:

For this particular example the readout pattern is clearly visible, because the flat frame is only 0.0039s in exposure and so basically a bias frame with a bit of light mixed in. Not a problem with real world flats.

For statistics that you cant really measure from these,  400x400 pixel selection box in the corner has a median ADU of about 32k, while in the center it is 35k so yes the sensor does have inherent vignetting even if there is a flat panel just 17.5mm from the sensor.

[Phillyo]

Thank you for your reply.

Just to confirm, my Lights, Flats and Darks are all taken with the same driver (native Risingcam driver in NINA), the same offset and gain, HCG etc. Lights and darks are 180s long, both at -10. Flats and dark flats are around 3.17 seconds long, but at normal temperature. I've tried flats at 50% and 33% of ADU using NINA flat wizard.

Attached is a single flat and light (both calibrated). I'm using WBPP in pixinsight for everything.

Not sure if it's related, but if I calibrate/stack everything without using the dark frames then the flat frames overcorrect and I get white corners in the image. When I use the 3min darks that doesn't happen, but then I don't get the vignette removal?

Thanks,

Phil.

0006_3.17_24.400.00_c.xisf 0000_180.00_-10.300.85_c.xisf

[ONIKKINEN]

2 minutes ago, Phillyo said:

Thank you for your reply.

Just to confirm, my Lights, Flats and Darks are all taken with the same driver (native Risingcam driver in NINA), the same offset and gain, HCG etc. Lights and darks are 180s long, both at -10. Flats and dark flats are around 3.17 seconds long, but at normal temperature. I've tried flats at 50% and 33% of ADU using NINA flat wizard.

Attached is a single flat and light (both calibrated). I'm using WBPP in pixinsight for everything.

Not sure if it's related, but if I calibrate/stack everything without using the dark frames then the flat frames overcorrect and I get white corners in the image. When I use the 3min darks that doesn't happen, but then I don't get the vignette removal?

Thanks,

Phil.

0006_3.17_24.400.00_c.xisf 98.97 MB · 0 downloads 0000_180.00_-10.300.85_c.xisf 98.97 MB · 0 downloads

Hmm, same offset, gain, temperature and still no working flats. Something doesn't add up. I was thinking if your dark flats have a lower offset than your darks for some reason you would get undercorrection. The overcorrection without darks is right, because offset is not removed in that case.

And also, i dont have PI (yet) and so cant open .xisf files.

Could you upload one of each file, darkflat, flat, dark, light in 16-bit .TIF or .FITS format? Not sure i can help if everything is correct but cant hurt to have a look?

[Phillyo]

5 minutes ago, ONIKKINEN said:

Hmm, same offset, gain, temperature and still no working flats. Something doesn't add up. I was thinking if your dark flats have a lower offset than your darks for some reason you would get undercorrection. The overcorrection without darks is right, because offset is not removed in that case.

And also, i dont have PI (yet) and so cant open .xisf files.

Could you upload one of each file, darkflat, flat, dark, light in 16-bit .TIF or .FITS format? Not sure i can help if everything is correct but cant hurt to have a look?

Ah, fits! Sorry, misread that. Yeah I'll do that in a sec. Thank you.

[Phillyo]

There you go, hope that helps!!

Thank you.

Light.fits darkflat.fits Flat.fits Dark_180.fits

[ONIKKINEN]

Alright, a few issues with these. Getting closer for sure.

Fits headers reveal that your flats and darkflats were taken with the cooler off, or at least not working. Darkflat was taken at 24.7c, flat at 24.9c. Both the dark and light frame were taken at -10 or at least close to that. On top of that it looks like you have lightleaks, quite significant ones, with both the darks and the flats.

Screenshots below with the false colour rendering mode and a histogram stretch to reveal every little thing wrong with frames (really useful for things like this):

Darkflat, left to right gradient. Not sure it could be anything but light leak:

Dark, central bright spot. My guess is you took the darks with the camera on the scope?

Both have much higher median ADU values than the camera should have with 768 offset (from fits header, default, keep this as is). So light leaks is my guess, or perhaps its also possible something is wrong with the camera but wouldnt claim that yet before these are fixed.

The flats you probably cant take accurately anymore if you have removed the camera from the scope, but if not you could take them again but this time also at -10. The darkflats and darks you can however retake and make sure the cooler is actually powered on. For darks and darkflats you need to take the camera off the scope and plug completely from light somehow. Just a few photons creeping through will ruin them.

The thermal current buildup of the camera is so low that even at 25c you will have probably less than one electron of thermal signal with your 4s flats (just guessing, but it will be still very low). My suggestion would be to retake the darkflat, and dark, both at complete darkness and at -10 and try if the flats work. Probably wont be perfect as there is the temperature difference. If that doesnt work, try retaking flats at -10.

[Phillyo]

I will give that a try today and let you know how it goes. Thank you. 

I was under the impression that flats didn't need to be at the same temperature as the lights? Obviously I got that wrong somewhere! 

Thanks again. I will post again with updates 🙂👍🏻

Phil 

[Phillyo]

Quick update, my mini pc has just died sooooo it'll have to wait

[Stuart1971]

2 hours ago, Phillyo said:

I will give that a try today and let you know how it goes. Thank you. 

I was under the impression that flats didn't need to be at the same temperature as the lights? Obviously I got that wrong somewhere! 

Thanks again. I will post again with updates 🙂👍🏻

Phil 

They don’t, but it doesn’t hurt to do so….👍🏻

[Phillyo]

I've installed everything onto my desktop PC (wow it runs NINA so much faster than my mini pc lol) and I'm currently doing flats, darkflats and darks.

I decided to have a look at all the darks and darkflats I had through Pixinsight's Blink function, and you are right. It is very obvious there's a vignette on the darks and darkflats. Having had a look at the 50 darkflats I've done so far, they look so much cleaner now that the camera is off the lens and has the lens cap in front of the sensor. No light leak. Fingers crossed this makes a difference!!

I'll update again later when I have a full library for 180s darks to calibrate my images with. Fingers crossed!

Phil

[ONIKKINEN]

4 hours ago, Phillyo said:

I will give that a try today and let you know how it goes. Thank you. 

I was under the impression that flats didn't need to be at the same temperature as the lights? Obviously I got that wrong somewhere! 

Thanks again. I will post again with updates 🙂👍🏻

Phil 

If they are properly calibrated, then its ok.

But there is an issue with higher temperatures causing possible calibration issues. The 0.2 degree difference between your flats and darkflats temperatures is irrelevant at -10 where the thermal signal is very low, but actually a measurable difference at +25 so the flats may not actually be calibrated well at high temperatures.

[Phillyo]

Slightly off topic, but as I am just using the camera off the telescope (lens) I'm using the supplied AC to DC adapter that came with the camera to power the cooler. I've noticed that the variation in temperature between the frames has been TINY compared to variation in temperature when everything is powered via the Pegasus Pocket Powerbox Advanced Gen2. Is that normal? I thought for a rather expensive bit of kit it would regulate the power going to the camera/cooler better than that? PPAv2 is powered by an AC to DC 12v regulated power supply too, not via a battery. I'm now wondering if it might be the PPAv2 that's causing issues with the random bad frames? More investigation needed, frustratingly! But, one thing at a time. I'll work on this first

[ONIKKINEN]

14 minutes ago, Phillyo said:

Slightly off topic, but as I am just using the camera off the telescope (lens) I'm using the supplied AC to DC adapter that came with the camera to power the cooler. I've noticed that the variation in temperature between the frames has been TINY compared to variation in temperature when everything is powered via the Pegasus Pocket Powerbox Advanced Gen2. Is that normal? I thought for a rather expensive bit of kit it would regulate the power going to the camera/cooler better than that? PPAv2 is powered by an AC to DC 12v regulated power supply too, not via a battery. I'm now wondering if it might be the PPAv2 that's causing issues with the random bad frames? More investigation needed, frustratingly! But, one thing at a time. I'll work on this first

Not noticed that between indoor use with the supplied AC power brick and my outdoor setup with a 12V DC power station.

But on the topic of thermal stability, taking short exposures will overwhelm the cooler really fast. You dont really notice this when outside shooting generally longer subs only, but when taking flats or darkflats (or worst offender: bias) frames the cooler will often lag behind a little bit for a few minutes. What i found to be the best way to avoid accidentally taking warmer flats is to first take 30 flats (mine are very short, so no time wasted) and then let the camera heat up during that. It will usually go from -10 to -9 or -8 even. Then the camera will ramp up its cooler power over a couple of minutes and once at -10 again i will take the actual flats that i will be using for the nights data.

[Budgie1]

26 minutes ago, Phillyo said:

Slightly off topic, but as I am just using the camera off the telescope (lens) I'm using the supplied AC to DC adapter that came with the camera to power the cooler. I've noticed that the variation in temperature between the frames has been TINY compared to variation in temperature when everything is powered via the Pegasus Pocket Powerbox Advanced Gen2. Is that normal? I thought for a rather expensive bit of kit it would regulate the power going to the camera/cooler better than that? PPAv2 is powered by an AC to DC 12v regulated power supply too, not via a battery. I'm now wondering if it might be the PPAv2 that's causing issues with the random bad frames? More investigation needed, frustratingly! But, one thing at a time. I'll work on this first

What's the amp rating on the PSU you're using?

A 5 amp PSU should normally be fine but the Pegasus PSU for the PPBA is rated at 10 amps max. 

If you use the app for the PPBA, you can monitor the output with everything connected and see what it peaks at.  

[Phillyo]

1 hour ago, Budgie1 said:

What's the amp rating on the PSU you're using?

A 5 amp PSU should normally be fine but the Pegasus PSU for the PPBA is rated at 10 amps max. 

If you use the app for the PPBA, you can monitor the output with everything connected and see what it peaks at.  

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01579KBFW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o04_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It's rated for 10A. I probably need to keep an eye on that as I do use the app, I just forget to check it lol.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Phillyo
Can't spell 'lol'.

[nightster]

On 06/08/2022 at 13:07, iapa said:

It would be good to see a hed2hed [sic] between different manufacturers and their models

What would you like to see. I have the RC26 in mono, my observatory partner has the ASI in M and C, and our fellow club members have copies of the QHY mono. And that is just the guys with permanent obsy’s maybe more with the setuo and tear down folks.