Advice for beginner - Newton vs refractor for balcony

[Dimitry]

Dear community! 
 

First of all - thank you a lot for the advices you are giving here, this is really helpful to getting started!

I'm searching for my first device to observe the night sky. I've read several threads here on the same topic and as I can see that the common recommendation is to consider Dobsonian 6" as a starting device for a budget around 300€.
Mostly this one was recommended: a 6" Dobson from Skywatcher e.g.
https://www.astroshop.de/teleskope/skywatcher-dobson-teleskop-n-150-1200-skyliner-classic-dob/p,15559

But in my situation (a balcony), I think this device would be rather big, also not very easy to go outside with it.

So I'm looking for a bit more compact solution suited for the balcony.

And it’s tough to decide between a Newtonian or a refractor as you can imagine. Therefore I hope your experiences will help to clarify some questions I have. 

As everyone, I am looking for a good value and to get a best possible experience for a given money. 

Based on several recommendations, there are two prio options for me in the same price range of about 400€ including delivery to Germany:

1) Skywatcher 150P on (EQ3-2)
https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/150eq32-1.html

2) SkyWatcher Evostar 102 (EQ3-2)
https://www.firstlightoptics.com/evostar/skywatcher-evostar-102-eq3-2.html

I'm living in a small town and I will mostly use it on my south facing balcony, while sometimes I'm planning to pick the telescope and go outside.

 

I would rather prefer the Newtonian 150P because of it's aperture for the € value. But I've read that Newtonians aren't really good for balconies as I'll have to stay near it's front side and therefore would not be able to move it as close to the parapet as possible to get the wider observation field.

 

Because of that, the "rear view" could be better options for the balconies.

But moving to the "looking from behind" telescopes in the same price range I'll drop from 150mm to the 102mm and will have the color errors caused by CA.

What would you recommend in my case -  what will give the better observation experience in my situation - Newton or smaller reflector?

 

Also some other considerations - moving down to 102mm is not a must if I'll go with a 120mm refractor on a simpler mount (https://www.firstlightoptics.com/startravel/skywatcher-startravel-120-az3.html).
Would you consider those as good options, or for a beginner "Alt-AZ + color errors of an f5 refractor" would kill the mood? 120 on EQ3 makes it too expensive.

 

And to make it even more complex, in 102 range for an even less money there are Maksutov 102 options (rear view, EQ mount, no CA) like https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-eq-avant/sky-watcher-skymax-102-az-eq-avant.html and https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-starquest/sky-watcher-starquest-102mc-f127-maksutov-cassegrain-telescope.html (btw, do not understand what makes starquest so much cheaper). 

Are these good options in comparison to the above?
I mean vs Evostar 102 it'll save me 100€ for the same aperture (can be used for eyepieces, etc.), but will it be stable on the supplied mounts and will I get comparable level of details for the planets and DSO?

 

Sorry for the long post, it’s just a lot to consider for a rookie, so I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on my thinking  

Edited August 12, 2020 by Dimitry

[John]

Hello and welcome to the forum

For balcony observing a short tubed scope would be desirable I would think.

Something like a maksutov-cassegrain perhaps ?

These show no false colour and "refractor like" views in a compact package. For example:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/skywatcher-skymax-127-synscan-az-goto.html

 

[AstroNebulee]

5 minutes ago, John said:

Hello and welcome to the forum

For balcony observing a short tubed scope would be desirable I would think.

Something like a maksutov-cassegrain perhaps ?

These show no false colour and "refractor like" views in a compact package. For example:

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/maksutov/skywatcher-skymax-127-synscan-az-goto.html

 

Agree with John here as I have a skywatcher explorer 150p eq3-2 and the 127 maksutov, the maksutov would be ideal for your balcony as will give you great views of lunar and planetary and some bright dso's, I've found it to be brilliant on my eq3-2 mount, with its short physical length but long focal length, but there will be a long waiting list for many scopes at the moment especially skywatcher brands as they cannot keep up with demand. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by LeeHore7

[johninderby]

Welcome to the forum. 

One thing you will soon learn is no one scope does it all. You WILL end up with more than one eventually. 🙂

The mak is extremly compact and lightweight and can be used on an AZ-GTi  goto mount or a manual alt-az mount like the AZ5.

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes/sky-watcher-skymax-102-az-gti.htm

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az5-deluxe/sky-watcher-skymax-127-az5-deluxe.html

My little Bresser 100 mak on an AZ-GTi

[Dimitry]

Hello John

Hello LeeHore7

Thank you for the suggestion. I am considering Maksutovs, also thought they might be good fit. However this one is a bit out of my budget (about 100£ more).
As a stretch I can go with 400€ what including delivery means about 325£ for the scope and mount. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Dimitry

[Dimitry]

4 minutes ago, johninderby said:

Welcome to the forum. 

One thing you will soon learn is no one scope does it all. You WILL end up with more than one eventually. 🙂

The mak is extremly compact and lightweight and can be used on an AZ-GTi  goto mount or a manual alt-az mount like the AZ5.

Thank you! Maks are very interesting indeed. But 127 is out of budget, therefore I am in the choice between 150 reflector and 102 Mak.  

How would such Mak 102 would be against Newton 150P? I mean, is it worth to play around with a more bulky Newtonian, or image quality of 102 would be somewhat comparable for the beginner? 

[Dippy]

11 hours ago, Dimitry said:

Dear community! 
 

First of all - thank you a lot for the advices you are giving here, this is really helpful to getting started!

I'm searching for my first device to observe the night sky. I've read several threads here on the same topic and as I can see that the common recommendation is to consider Dobsonian 6" as a starting device for a budget around 300€.
Mostly this one was recommended: a 6" Dobson from Skywatcher e.g.
https://www.astroshop.de/teleskope/skywatcher-dobson-teleskop-n-150-1200-skyliner-classic-dob/p,15559

But in my situation (a balcony), I think this device would be rather big, also not very easy to go outside with it.

So I'm looking for a bit more compact solution suited for the balcony.

And it’s tough to decide between a Newtonian or a refractor as you can imagine. Therefore I hope your experiences will help to clarify some questions I have. 

As everyone, I am looking for a good value and to get a best possible experience for a given money. 

Based on several recommendations, there are two prio options for me in the same price range of about 400€ including delivery to Germany:

1) Skywatcher 150P on (EQ3-2)
https://www.firstlightoptics.com/reflectors/150eq32-1.html

2) SkyWatcher Evostar 102 (EQ3-2)
https://www.firstlightoptics.com/evostar/skywatcher-evostar-102-eq3-2.html

I'm living in a small town and I will mostly use it on my south facing balcony, while sometimes I'm planning to pick the telescope and go outside.

 

I would rather prefer the Newtonian 150P because of it's aperture for the € value. But I've read that Newtonians aren't really good for balconies as I'll have to stay near it's front side and therefore would not be able to move it as close to the parapet as possible to get the wider observation field.

 

Because of that, the "rear view" could be better options for the balconies.

But moving to the "looking from behind" telescopes in the same price range I'll drop from 150mm to the 102mm and will have the color errors caused by CA.

What would you recommend in my case -  what will give the better observation experience in my situation - Newton or smaller reflector?

 

Also some other considerations - moving down to 102mm is not a must if I'll go with a 120mm refractor on a simpler mount (https://www.firstlightoptics.com/startravel/skywatcher-startravel-120-az3.html).
Would you consider those as good options, or for a beginner "Alt-AZ + color errors of an f5 refractor" would kill the mood? 120 on EQ3 makes it too expensive.

 

And to make it even more complex, in 102 range for an even less money there are Maksutov 102 options (rear view, EQ mount, no CA) like https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-eq-avant/sky-watcher-skymax-102-az-eq-avant.html and https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-starquest/sky-watcher-starquest-102mc-f127-maksutov-cassegrain-telescope.html (btw, do not understand what makes starquest so much cheaper). 

Are these good options in comparison to the above?
I mean vs Evostar 102 it'll save me 100€ for the same aperture (can be used for eyepieces, etc.), but will it be stable on the supplied mounts and will I get comparable level of details for the planets and DSO?

 

Sorry for the long post, it’s just a lot to consider for a rookie, so I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on my thinking  

I observe in a similar situation ( but through a window). I  find using a Newtonian telescope, even an Astroscan is difficult in that way. I prefer my refractors , Skywatchers up to 150mm, on the Dobsonian mount of a Skywatcher Flextube 130, on a table near the window, the tube sticking out towards the south and me sitting comfy on a chair inside the room. Everything I need is easy to reach and I can take breaks as I wish during observation without leaving my equipment exposed to outside environment. I sometimes put my feet up on a small stool, pulling the giant tube of the Skywatcher 150 refractor coupled with a binoviewer towards my eye , resting my head on a headrest and observe the Moon or Jupiter. I feel probably I am the most relaxed observer of the night sky (until I see someone more comfortable). Sometimes I even don’t bother to open the window and observe through the double glaze, mostly during winter months.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Dippy

[johninderby]

On the moon and planets the mak will give very nice sharp views. The 150 will show a bit more detail as it has a bigger aperture.. The mak is really best on the moon and planets wheras the 150 is more of an all round scope that does well on the moon and planets but also good on DSOs.

The mak should never need colimating whereas the 150 being a newtonian will need collimating which will need doing occasionaly.Also the mak is so much smaller.

Edited August 12, 2020 by johninderby

[Dimitry]

4 minutes ago, johninderby said:

On the moon and planets the mak will give very nice sharp views. The 150 will show a bit more detail as it has a bigger aperture.. The mak is really best on the moon and planets wheras the 150 is more of an all round scope that does well on the moon and planets but also good on DSOs.

The mak should never need colimating whereas the 150 being a newtonian will need collimating which will need doing occasionaly.Also the mak is so much smaller.

That’s what I also read - 150 is an all-rounder, and I have no idea what will be more interesting for me after I start looking - planets or DSO. I consider 150 because I thought it might serve longer than Mak 102 before I’ll figure out I need a second scope

[Alien 13]

20 minutes ago, Dimitry said:

Thank you! Maks are very interesting indeed. But 127 is out of budget, therefore I am in the choice between 150 reflector and 102 Mak.  

How would such Mak 102 would be against Newton 150P? I mean, is it worth to play around with a more bulky Newtonian, or image quality of 102 would be somewhat comparable for the beginner? 

The 102 Mak is a very good performer but will not show the wide field visual views of the Newt but if you ever think of hanging a camera off them then the Mak is much much much better.

Alan

Edited August 12, 2020 by Alien 13

[Dimitry]

13 minutes ago, Dippy said:

I observe in a similar situation ( but through a window). I  find using a Newtonian telescopes, even an Astroscan is difficult to use in that way. I prefer my refractors , Skywatchers up to 150mm, on the Dobsonian mount of a Skywatcher Flextube 130, on a table near the window, the tube sticking out towards the south and me sitting comfy on a chair inside the room. Everything I need is easy to reach and I can take breaks as I wish during observation with living my equipment exposed to outside environment. I sometimes put my feet up on a small stool, pulling the giant tube of the Skywatcher  150 refractor coupled with a binoviewer towards my eye , resting my head on a headrest and observe the Moon or Jupiter. I feel probably I am the most relaxed observer of the night sky (until I see someone more comfortable). Sometimes I even don’t bother to open the window and observe through the double glaze.

It’s a very cosy image I must tell

Are these mounts sold separately? If yes, it might be an option to combine with 127 Mak...

[AstroNebulee]

1 minute ago, Dimitry said:

That’s what I also read - 150 is an all-rounder, and I have no idea what will be more interesting for me after I start looking - planets or DSO. I consider 150 because I thought it might serve longer than Mak 102 before I’ll figure out I need a second scope

The field of view in the maksutov will be smaller than the 150p, but it depends as you say on what interests you most at first, but when you get one scope you'll want to get the other not long after as I did with mine ☺️, look at videos on YouTube to assertain the physical sizes aswell may help with your decision for using on a balcony. 

[johninderby]

I use the 100 mak occasionaly for observing from the bedroom where it’s compact size makes it easy to use. 

Perhaps a suitable mount that can be used with the mak but also with a newt later on. 🤔

[Dimitry]

So as Mak 102 looks like a common recommendation, what would you advice in terms of a mount? FLO offers Mak 102 on

Az-EQ: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-eq-avant/sky-watcher-skymax-102-az-eq-avant.html

Az Pronto: https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-az-pronto/sky-watcher-skymax-102-az-pronto.html

 

as StarQuest offer (cheapest of them all): https://www.firstlightoptics.com/sky-watcher-starquest/sky-watcher-starquest-102mc-f127-maksutov-cassegrain-telescope.html

 

or something else, like bresser, or ota+mount separately?

[johninderby]

Don’t really like those light duty EQ mounts like the Starquest.

Either of the others would be very good. Just depends on if you want GOTO or manual mount. The manual alt-az takes no time to set up and you can use it right away. On the other hand GOTO is useful but takes afew minutes to set up and requires power, either batteries or an AC poweradapter.

Edited August 12, 2020 by johninderby

[Dippy]

1 hour ago, Dimitry said:

It’s a very cosy image I must tell

Are these mounts sold separately? If yes, it might be an option to combine with 127 Mak...

Unfortunately not. I bought the Skywatcher Flextube 130 second hand from Ebay and I use its mount for my observing sessions indoors. I wish they would sell it separately and have written to OVL in UK about it (OVL is the distributor of the Skywatcher telescopes). For my smaller refractors I use the similar but smaller mount of a second hand Skywatcher Heritage 100. I use my Skywatcher Maksutov 150 on the same mount, but I don’t recommend them because refractors are more versatile for both wide angle and planetary observation. Maksutov telescopes have narrow field of view and are excellent for planetary observation but finding the target and keeping it on track is a challenge if you don’t have a tracking mount. 

I also use cheap but optically excellent and very light weight SVBONY Aspheric eyepieces on a Skywatcher binoviewer with these, although I have more upmarket eyepieces, but they are heavy for binoviewing.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Dippy

[johninderby]

Astroshop has these mounting bases on sale.Rather small but a 102 might fit. 🤔

https://www.astroshop.eu/alt-azimuth-without-goto/omegon-mount-dobsonian-mini-base-with-synta-dovetail/p,46439

Edited August 12, 2020 by johninderby

[RT65CB-SWL]

Hi @Dimitry and welcome to SGL. 

As mentioned above, a Maksutov or SCT will serve you well for lunar and planetary viewing. They do however have a few downsides.

• they are notorious dew magnets, so a dew shield, either ready made or DIY is a must have accessory.
• require time to cooldown before use. I give mine a minimum of thirty minutes [minimum] to acclimatise to the ambient air outside.
• narrow field of view.
• long focal length, i.e. f/10 or over.

Below is an image of my 're-modded' ETX105. It has has focal length of 1470mm @ f/14.

[ScouseSpaceCadet]

Ideal for a balcony:

 

https://www.firstlightoptics.com/beginner-telescopes/sky-watcher-skymax-102-az-pronto.html

Simple to set up and start using. Compact and portable.

With plenty of spare cash remaining with your budget for two or three new eyepieces

 

A Skymax 102 is my second telescope and I'm happy with it. The instrument provides a very sharp view up to approx 200x. It's a nice terrestrial spotter scope also.

Astronomy & Nature TV AZ-Pronto review

 

 

[Ricochet]

For observing from a balcony I would suggest only considering alt/az, not eq mounts. I would think that the way an eq mount changes the position of a telescope would be a bit of a nightmare on a balcony. I would also consider whether you can construct some sort of pier towards the front of the balcony rather than using a tripod, and fit an alt/az head to that. Moving the telescope forward those couple of feet could make quite a difference from a small balcony. Obviously, this won't work with a Newtonian where you need to stand at the front of the tube, but I think those have been discounted already. 

[Dimitry]

On 13/08/2020 at 00:06, johninderby said:

Don’t really like those light duty EQ mounts like the Starquest.

Either of the others would be very good. Just depends on if you want GOTO or manual mount.

Are they so different? All three look very similar. By the appearance I would even assume Avant and StarQuest were developed based on AZ Pronto  And Avant and StarQuest visually really look like twins with, you know, different haircuts. 

what am I missing? Are the Skymax 102 on Avant and 192 StarQuest really different (like mount and the tube)?

 

On 13/08/2020 at 01:17, Philip R said:

Hi @Dimitry and welcome to SGL. 

As mentioned above, a Maksutov or SCT will serve you well for lunar and planetary viewing. They do however have a few downsides.

• they are notorious dew magnets, so a dew shield, either ready made or DIY is a must have accessory.
• require time to cooldown before use. I give mine a minimum of thirty minutes [minimum] to acclimatise to the ambient air outside.
• narrow field of view.
• long focal length, i.e. f/10 or over.

Thank you for the feedback! And for sure for highlighting the downsides!

With this I’m just thinking, how is the Maksutov 102 vs Refractor 102? Maksutov + Reducer 0.5x and StarTravel 102 + Barlow 2x will give more or less the same range of FoVs.

What would give more interesting picture? 

 

 

16 hours ago, Ricochet said:

For observing from a balcony I would suggest only considering alt/az, not eq mounts. I would think that the way an eq mount changes the position of a telescope would be a bit of a nightmare on a balcony. 

For a newbie, what kind of problem a EQ will create?
 

BTW, this would also mean that mounts like StarQuest or Avant are very cool to start with, as they both support EQ and AltAz positioning. 

[RT65CB-SWL]

2 hours ago, Dimitry said:

Thank you for the feedback! And for sure for highlighting the downsides!

With this I’m just thinking, how is the Maksutov 102 vs Refractor 102? Maksutov + Reducer 0.5x and StarTravel 102 + Barlow 2x will give more or less the same range of FoVs.

 

To be honest @Dimitry don't know, as I rarely use a Barlow lens; (mine is a Klee 2.8x); in my ETX105 or Celestron C6/SCT-xlt, but it does get used in my TeleVue Ranger. I do have an Astro-Engineering 'MagniMax' which is 1.6x and this screws in to nosepiece of my eyepieces to give me that little bit extra.

[Dimitry]

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Edited August 18, 2020 by Dimitry