align to North

[spikkyboy]

This may seem like a stupid post, I have an HEQ5PRO mount and the manual assumes an awful lot.

States align front leg marked N to north.

OK great, but what about the other two legs??? you can put one leg pointed to North and swivel the whole tripod 360 degrees around it.

My intention was to mark with waterproof marker my tripod foot positions on the patio and drop it onto the same spot every time.

Downloaded various compass apps to my phone. The only exact way here is to attach the side of the phone to a 90 degree surface on the scope and swivel it around the from foot until N is achieved?

BUT the phone apps go crazy as soon as it is put anywhere near the scope or mount. I am guessing due to the electronics inside.

So now I have a massive protractor and measuring out 120 degree angles for the legs to sit but the slightest error is inches out at the back end.

I am doing this in daylight to save time later.

Am I the only one to have had this problem? I found a sky at night guide that has you making card templates?

Is there an easier way?

Any 'pointers' pardon the pun would be appreciated.

Dave

[PeterCPC]

I don't know about the HEQ5PRO but normally you set it up so that the telescope is pointing North when in the Home position. This will dictate where the tripod legs are. When i did my AVX I used a compass to find North and did it that way then made dimples in the concrete slabs that it sits on. So I know that it's always pointing more or less to North. Then Polar Alignment will make it more accurate.

Peter

Edited April 7, 2020 by PeterCPC

[miguel87]

Are you setting up for visual or photography purposes?

Yes you could put the north facing leg down and then swivel the whole tripod around on it. But why would you do that? Just leave it pointing north.

If it is for visual astronomy only then compass north will be fine and you can tweak the direction of the mount head once it gets dark without having to move the legs.

If it is for astrophotography then I have no experience to advice from. But I do know that you probably cannot get a satisfactory position for astrophotography in daylight.

Mike

[Erling G-P]

It doesn't have to be that precise.  Think of the mount's 'footprint' as a triangle.  The point with the 'N' leg should point roughly to north - or towards Polaris, if you setup when it's visible.  You fine tune the position on the mount anyway, when you polar align - you just have to have enough adjustment range left/right, to get Polaris where it needs to be in your polar scope (or equivalent, if you use apps or the like for polar alignment)

[miguel87]

And on the point of marking the floor, I have heard of people doing this but personally I find it pointless. Because of the adjustments you make higher up the mount in the EQ head, you could put the legs in the same spot next session but still be out of polar alignment with the top end of the scope. 

The only way floor markings help is if you never disassemble your setup.

I know my garden faces pretty much east, so I just slap the tripod down pointing roughly towards my left hand fence and thats more than accurate enough to then properly polar align.

Edited April 7, 2020 by miguel87

[spikkyboy]

thanks so far, yes this will be for AP and I never dismantle the kit so my hope is that once I get this correct and park the scope in home position each time it is used I will only ever have small adjustments for the movement of Polaris?

Just seems no accurate way to put the tripod down and have it point to dead North.

I have the mount head and all electronics taken off now and even with just the bare tripod my phone is going nuts as soon as it goes near the metal.

North ends up somewhere to the SW so not really any help. As I say I ordered a real compass but who know when it will arrive.

[miguel87]

43 minutes ago, spikkyboy said:

thanks so far, yes this will be for AP and I never dismantle the kit so my hope is that once I get this correct and park the scope in home position each time it is used I will only ever have small adjustments for the movement of Polaris?

Just seems no accurate way to put the tripod down and have it point to dead North.

I have the mount head and all electronics taken off now and even with just the bare tripod my phone is going nuts as soon as it goes near the metal.

North ends up somewhere to the SW so not really any help. As I say I ordered a real compass but who know when it will arrive.

You really dont need a compass, like everyone said. The position of the tripod legs is not important. Even google earth will give you a good enough idea of north for the tripod.

What scope are you going to be imaging with? I dont know anybody that doesnt take things apart to some extent between session due to storage, weight etc. I'm pretty certain you will have to polar align everytime you go out. Even if the scope stayed assembled, Mark's on the floor would not be accurate enough for AP.

Dont take this the wrong way but, maybe you need to take some smaller steps first.

You certainly need to be very familiar with polar alignment before diving into astrophotography. Is this your first telescope.

No offense intended ✌

Edited April 7, 2020 by miguel87

[spikkyboy]

I have an Esprit 80ED for imaging. Its my 3rd scope previous CPC925 I still have and an old Celestron 127 gone long ago.

The scope is used on the patio just outside my storage shed. I have covers and a dehumidifier running in there so I just open both doors and dump it back inside when im done.

Have done zero AP so far, just working on getting this right for now. As you say one thing at a time. If im not set up and tracking correctly I am wasting my time trying part 2.

[MarkAR]

There was an idea on another thread that would help you.

Basically use a strip of wood the right width that you can clamp in your mount about 18 to 24" long. Add a ledge at the bottom that your phone can rest on squarely (add rubber band for safety) and that should stop any interference from the mount with your phone. That should get you close enough to north that you can do a polar alignment.

[miguel87]

Good luck, I'm sure you'll get some ace photos with a bit of work. 

I didnt mean to assume you were a novice but I picked up simple polar alignment from just visual astronomy.

I was tempted by the jewels of AP (aren't we all) but after a brief unsuccessful stint I realised I was no longer enjoying looking at the night sky so am a dedicated visual o server now.

Hope to see your pics in the future!

Mike

[Anthonyexmouth]

2 hours ago, spikkyboy said:

This may seem like a stupid post, I have an HEQ5PRO mount and the manual assumes an awful lot.

States align front leg marked N to north.

OK great, but what about the other two legs??? you can put one leg pointed to North and swivel the whole tripod 360 degrees around it.

Imagine the tripod legs form a triangle on the floor and the north leg is the point of the triangle, there is only one wat it can point north, you cant spin the other legs around and it still points north

 

My intention was to mark with waterproof marker my tripod foot positions on the patio and drop it onto the same spot every time.

I did this on my deck when i started, worked really well and saved a lot of time setting up. 

Downloaded various compass apps to my phone. The only exact way here is to attach the side of the phone to a 90 degree surface on the scope and swivel it around the from foot until N is achieved?

Compass apps hate being near any metal. If you can lay the compass on the floor without the tripod anywhere near and ping a chalk line east-west setting the rear legs so they both touch the line will make the tripod point north, as long as the north leg is on the north side of the line. you can then mark the floor where the legs touch and you know its pointing north. 

B

 

[Neil H]

Hi I have the HEQ5 mount , I use polar alignment pro app , first go to compass mode place your phone on the floor get it on North then place the front leg marked North on the north 

Now put on the mount go to polar alignment on the app click on daytime alignment fit your phone to the mount and adjust to get it polar aligned , now your ready to check alignment once Polaris comes up , the app is fairly good it's only ever about a deg of so out 

The app does everything , North compass , level to level the tripod , polar alignment daytime and night will show you the position of Polaris in the polar scope 

[spikkyboy]

2 hours ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

 

The east / west line for the rear legs is a great idea I think we have a winner thank you. I was trying to mark out 120 degree quadrants but your idea is much more accurate and a whole lot faster.

[Anthonyexmouth]

37 minutes ago, spikkyboy said:

The east / west line for the rear legs is a great idea I think we have a winner thank you. I was trying to mark out 120 degree quadrants but your idea is much more accurate and a whole lot faster.

if you've got the time, and who hasn't at the moment, an even more accurate way to do it and it give you true north which is what you want rather than magnetic is to have an upright stick that wont move at all, mark the tip of the shadow on the ground, come back a few hours later and mark the new tip of the shadow and draw a line between them, thats exactly east-west in relation to true north. A stick/pole about 2-3 feet works best. as upright as possible but doesn't have to be accurate just stiff and wont move between markings. 

[miguel87]

4 minutes ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

if you've got the time, and who hasn't at the moment, an even more accurate way to do it and it give you true north which is what you want rather than magnetic is to have an upright stick that wont move at all, mark the tip of the shadow on the ground, come back a few hours later and mark the new tip of the shadow and draw a line between them, thats exactly east-west in relation to true north. A stick/pole about 2-3 feet works best. as upright as possible but doesn't have to be accurate just stiff and wont move between markings. 

There is no way that would work. To start with, the path if you marked every hour for a day would not be a straight line.

Second the sun sets in different locations not always due east and west.

If you did this between 8 and 9pm near mid summer, the line would be heading towards a north-south line.

 

[Anthonyexmouth]

1 minute ago, miguel87 said:

There is no way that would work. To start with, the path if you marked every hour for a day would not be a straight line.

Second the sun sets in different locations not always due east and west.

If you did this between 8 and 9pm near mid summer, the line would be heading towards a north-south line.

 

it works all days, any day. as long as the sun shines. 

im not talking about the direction of the shadow, just the very tip of the shadow. that tip travels in a due east direction as the day progresses. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Anthonyexmouth

[miguel87]

3 minutes ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

it works all days, any day. as long as the sun shines. 

im not talking about the direction of the shadow, just the very tip of the shadow. that tip travels in a due east direction as the day progresses. 

I know you are talking about the tip. It's still a huge no.

The path of the tip of the stick will form an arc. So already that means it cannot work as every hour's line would point in a different direction.

I am 100% confident this is definitely not true.

[Anthonyexmouth]

3 minutes ago, miguel87 said:

I know you are talking about the tip. It's still a huge no.

The path of the tip of the stick will form an arc. So already that means it cannot work as every hour's line would point in a different direction.

I am 100% confident this is definitely not true.

100% confident doesn't mean 100% right. 

sounds like it should be wrong but it works, you were obviously never a boy scout. the tip of the shadows follows a straight line all day

Edited April 7, 2020 by Anthonyexmouth

[miguel87]

1 minute ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

100% confident doesn't mean 100% right. 

sounds like it should be wrong but it works, you were obviously never a boy scout. 

You obviously never tested it!

[Anthonyexmouth]

Just now, miguel87 said:

You obviously never tested it!

I have, many many times. 

[miguel87]

At best it will be very approximate. I mean if you are above the article circle the tip will draw a circle?

Edited April 7, 2020 by miguel87

[Anthonyexmouth]

Just now, miguel87 said:

At nest it will be very approximate. I mean of you are above the article circle the tip will draw a circle

it extremely accurately marks true east-west. 

[City9Town0]

I was taught the 'Anthony method' in the 1970's in fieldwork/living for an organisation.... always works within a couple of degrees when I've tried it... From Southern UK to Northern Norway....

[miguel87]

3 minutes ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

it extremely accurately marks true east-west. 

You're gonna ignore the circle that would be drawn by the sun within the article circle?

Or the fact that it is not a perfectly straight line unless you are on the equator?

It may well be rough but certainly not more accurate than the other methods mentioned.

[Anthonyexmouth]

1 minute ago, miguel87 said:

You're gonna ignore the circle that would be drawn by the sun within the article circle?

Or the fact that it is not a perfectly straight line unless you are on the equator?

It may well be rough but certainly not more accurate than the other methods mentioned.

1. dont worry about the line of the shadow, its ONLY the tip you need, and that ALWAYS follows a STRAIGHT line. It works within the arctic circle, why woudn't it? 

2. It's VERY accurate if done with a thin/pointed stick.