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Kronos831

Not enough for andromeda?

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So, a week ago, just after the new moon, I went observing with my friends . We found a pretty nice bortle 5 sky and decided to set up my SkyWatcher heritage 130p. I could just make out andromeda with the naked eye.Through the scope I could see m32 and m110 in the same view with just a little more if not only andromeda s core. I used a 25mm eyepiece at 26x. Is what i saw normal? Or is the view underwhelming because andromeda is low on the horizon? What does it take to see all of andromeda ?

-Kronos

Edited by Kronos831
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I am of the understanding that  u can only see andromedas core. Although it is very vast in size  the outer Area is to feint to see.

I have viewed andromeda quite a few times in the last couple of months in bortle 7ish sky with my 8" dob and can only get the core, I can however use higher magnification around 150 and the core is reasonably visible. I world really like to see this through my 8" in less light polluted sky's to see how much of a difference it makes. I would also be interested to hear what andromeda looks like through a larger 10 or 12" dob.

Regards

 

Baz

Edited by Barry-W-Fenner
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I have just been having a read and can see that your scope can achieve upto around 260 mag. It might be worth pushing the magnification up to 150 to 200 if possible. This will help when viewing the core. I also feel that averted vision did help draw out more detail.

 

Baz

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I have an 8" and 14" dob and Bottle 5 skies at home. In the 8" it's very rare I can see more than the core. With the 14 I can make out a much larger area, but it's faint and I can definitely see more with practice, but dark lanes are visible and there's a larger milky presence.

On the other hand, last year, I took my 14 to a darker site (my guess is Bortle 2) and saw the whole thing... in my finderscope! 

I'm afraid the best upgrade for your scope is a dark sky.

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The Andromeda Galaxy is a very large object but unless the skies are very dark the view is usually limited to the core area. If you want to show M32 and M110 in the same view of view you need to keep the magnification down to get enough true field of view

Seeing the extended structure and dust lanes really needs dark, transparent skies as much as anything. Get your scope under such skies and you may be surprised how well it shows this galaxy group.

The good thing about the Heritage 130 in this respect is that it is readily portable :icon_biggrin:

 

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Encouraging to hear that the dark sky's can have a great impact. I am looking forward to getting out to a proper dark site and finding out what the 8" can do!  I bet we will all be surprised how capable our equipment can be under these conditions

 

Baz

Edited by Barry-W-Fenner

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I’m bortle 5 too and from my observatory I can’t see Andromeda with my naked eye or 10x50 bins... Though to be honest I haven’t exactly tried very hard, after a few minutes of searching, I give up and just use my GoTo Mount. Within seconds, I  have Andromeda in the eyepiece (8” SCT).
 

Below was a 90 second sub @200mm of Andromeda, piggybacked. 

B61D8B69-681C-4445-B97C-83B13AE18E34.thumb.png.3a14751a7eed8ab9bee067a38a7a7d62.png
 

 

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^^ Benjam's image above is a good approximation of the binocular view at our dark site (SQM22 on occasion.)

There is little point in chasing M31 at high magnification. There is never going to be any visible detail in the core; the main interest lies in the dust lanes for which you need as much aperture as possible combined with a wide field. Our 20 inch F4 Dob was very good for this because its focal length of 2 metres wasn't too long. However, the dust lanes are still visible in our present visual scope, a 14 inch LX200. The limiting factor with this scope is not so much its reduced aperture as its reduced field of view from a 3.5 metre focal length. Large scopes also make the two satellites into fine sights in their own right.

One caveat: dedicated observers with keen eyesight and the right equipment can also go in search of M31's globulars but this is serious stuff!

Olly

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It's all about the skies with M31 really. I enjoy it from a dark site with a widefield refractor, 3.5 or 4 degree field of view. With good dark adaptation, you can really start to see the full extent of the galaxies spiral arms; very subtle but definitely there!

I looked at M31 with an 8" Mak years back, 4000mm focal length and about 0.6 degree fov. No wonder I couldn't really see much of it, but I didn't know much better back then. I have had some lovely views with the 14" at low power, M32 and M110 really showed some shape to them.

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I would say once u get to green zone that's where it get much better or better yet blue or grey.

In blue and grey zone I can see most of it not to the edges as it becomes fainter and its pics the norm see this.

Anything deep sky is about dark skies

In Canada our biggest star party is held 5 days once a yr. It's in a yellow zone which is soso. About 900 to 1200 people go but after 3 yrs if that I stopped going cause I had a place in a blue zone. So was no point to view from a yellow zone

There huge difference between the 2 even tho it's only 2 zone better.

I kinda explain it like this each zone is 50% better

Joejaguar 

 

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2 minutes ago, joe aguiar said:

Anything deep sky is about dark skies

True, but some DSOs such as Globs and PNs cope with a bit of LP far better than the subtle outer arms of M31 or say the Veil Nebula which are very low surface brightness.

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12 minutes ago, Stu said:

True, but some DSOs such as Globs and PNs cope with a bit of LP far better than the subtle outer arms of M31 or say the Veil Nebula which are very low surface brightness.

My Nemesis, The Veil. I still cant find it. I will need to start a thread for advice from the pros... 

Baz

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2 minutes ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

My Nemesis, The Veil. I still cant find it. I will need to start a thread for advice from the pros... 

Baz

Do you have a UHC or O-III filter ?

They (especailly the O-III) make all the difference in terms of visibility of the Veil.

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23 minutes ago, Stu said:

True, but some DSOs such as Globs and PNs cope with a bit of LP far better than the subtle outer arms of M31 or say the Veil Nebula which are very low surface brightness.

Yes true

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11 minutes ago, John said:

Do you have a UHC or O-III filter ?

They (especailly the O-III) make all the difference in terms of visibility of the Veil.

I have a (cheap) O-III filter John, In truth I haven't tried to find the Veil for a while now as Cygnus is very low on the Horizon, I thought that it would be to difficult to locate at its current altitude. It would appear though that i should start looking for it through the O-III filter to actually locate it though. Previously I haven't used the filter and assumed I would at least find it this way.

Thank you

 

Baz

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25 minutes ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

My Nemesis, The Veil. I still cant find it. I will need to start a thread for advice from the pros... 

Baz

You need some decent skies as well as, ideally, an OIII or second choice a UHC to give the Veil a go Baz.

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28 minutes ago, Stu said:

You need some decent skies as well as, ideally, an OIII or second choice a UHC to give the Veil a go Baz.

So a combination of my O-III filter and the sky being decent. How about the height? its only about 30 degrees currently at best guess.

 

Regards

Baz

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15 minutes ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

So a combination of my O-III filter and the sky being decent. How about the height? its only about 30 degrees currently at best guess.

 

Regards

Baz

To be honest, I would wait until next summer when it is much better placed. Plenty of better placed objects at the moment. Altitude will really help due to atmospheric extinction, and it is faint enough to start with.

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Here in Fla in between 3 and 4 according to the LP maps I see on the internet.

M31 is rather difficult on most nights to see the core naked eye. On those nights I can see the core fairly well with my 8" dob.

On good nights if I sit comfortable for 30 minutes viewing it, more of the faint outer regions become visible.

Good skies and patience pay off.

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To not see M31, just from my own experience, a person would have to be in a Bortle 8 or worse location, with ver bad transperancy. Setting aside filters, moving to a dark site works much better than using filters alone.  Bortle 5 & low altitude isn't a good combo because a B5's pollution is still too high. It's suburban or outer city. 

Yes, I view M31, trhough a fast Apertura 12 inch DOB f/4.9, it's amazing.  Yes, better than an 8" Orion Skyquest. There is more sharpness/clarity. By comparison, an 8" would look blurrier & darker. Then again, the same can be said, when looking, though a 16 inch. I setup my 8" & 12", side by side, a few weeks ago & the 12" won. 

Well, to your question, I don't view, like that. Not low or, at 26x. I would say, not normal for observing. Borderline low for B5, pick different object. 

ASTRONOMERS' GOLDEN RULE: KEEP YOUR 'SCOPES HIGH & DRY, DARK. It's, like the goldielock's CHZ zone but for viewing.

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19 hours ago, Barry-W-Fenner said:

My Nemesis, The Veil. I still cant find it. I will need to start a thread for advice from the pros... 

Baz

 

As high in the sky as possible, wide field EP and an OIII filter. Start by spotting the naked eye triangle marked 1,2,3 below. Star 3 is the one with the WItch's Broom running right through it. Try moving that star just out of view if you can't see anything.

veil.JPG.dca440edd80960c6db1c544437c70557.JPG

Apologies for the digression.

Olly

Edited by ollypenrice
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Similar but slight variation that I use. I make a right angled triangle between Gienah, 52 Cygni and Zeta Cygni. The Witch's Broom runs through 52 Cygni which is 3 on Olly's chart.

Screenshot_20200206-093921_SkySafari 6 Pro.jpg

20200206_094150.jpg

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I can't see the Veil from my location - too much LP. 

A couple of years ago at a star party, I had a look through someone's 100mm scope, low power, with a filter. It was a mesmerising sight; so clear and full of detail. 

Dark skies are the way to go. Aperture can't make up for LP.

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The scale of the thing often catches people out:

 

https://calgary.rasc.ca/images/MoonAndVeilb.gif

 

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Thanks for the informative assistance gents.  This will be of great help. My weapons of choice will be either the 18 or 25mm BST and O-III filter along with hopefully a clear sky with good seeing.

The things that are against me are the fact that Cygnus is low currently. I can make out the full "cross" but cant really see much else I cant even remember seeing 52 Cyg! I will have to have another more detailed look. As John has also pointed out it is also deceptively large, I may have been on it without even knowing, Hopefully the O-III confirm.

What do you all recommend as "low power" for this target? 

The more I hear about darker sky's with low light pollution the more I want to get out and find one. I genuinely thought my sky was ok as I could see all main constellations. How naive of me! 

Thank you

 

Baz

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