Questions re what we can see and filters

[Sarah]

My hubbie and I have recently bought a C8N GT. After spending most of the first evening trying to get the goto aligned properly we then realised that the finderscope wasn't aligned properly to start with, which would explain why we couldn't see anything much when viewing through the EP! Having sorted that out, we are getting more used the the alignment process.

However after a few hours, it seems the goto isn't getting the object in view of the EP. Is this normal as we are only aligning with polaris at the moment?

Also we are finding that we can only see lots of stars and a few smudges! The orion nebula looks pretty similar through binoculars (cheap 10x50) and the C8N. Should we not be able to see more through the C8N? Saturday eve, after sending the goto to some different nebula, we couldn't see anything much at all, but it was still aligned reasonably ok. We have some baader hyperion EPs (31mm, 24mm and 8mm). What EP would be best to use for viewing the orion nebula and other nebula? We have bought the baader UHC-S filter. The orion nebula looked no different (just a grey/white smudge) and the stars all looked a bit fainter. We have also got a 2x barlow.

We are wanting to try some imaging, so hopefully we can see a bit more with longer exposure images.

Is it that we are struggling to see much more than smudges due to light pollution? We live in a small village so I would have thought the LP wouldn't be quite so bad for us. Although having said that, once orion is high enough in the sky for us to see it, we do have a street light in the same direction. Would this make a difference?

Is there anything we should try to view that would look a bit more spectacular than lots of pinpricks and smudges? And what would be a good EP to use?

Are there any other filters that would be recommended to improve viewing? Also are there are any other filters that would be recommended for imaging? I have a canon 450d that we would be using. Would the CN8 be good for imaging planets or is it better for DSOs? We have also bought an Onyx 80EDF, which I hope should be good for planets. Would the filters be suitable for both the C8N and the 80EDF? There seem to be so many options available , it's all getting a bit confusing! So any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Sarah

[russ]

Hi Sarah,

The C8-N should show a more detailed view of M42. You should see more of the shape and the four stars that make the trapezium in the centre, which the binoculars can't see.

We had a similiar post to this a few weeks ago from another member. He too was expecting more than grey smudges. There's no point beating around the bush, for the most part that is all there is too see. There's certainly no colour, the eye just isn't sensitive enough.

But there are things you can do to make sure you are getting the most from your setup. Make sure you give your eyes plenty of time to dark adapt. And don't just spend 30secs looking at one object and moving on. The eye will see more the longer you spend looking at that object. Off course some objects are so faint you could spend all night looking and it would make no difference.

Also remember to try averted vision which uses a more sensitive part of the eye.

If you find grey smudges disappointing it's probably best to avoid the really faint galaxies. But globular clusters, planetary nebula, open clusters and brighter galaxies are normally a pleasing sight.

You already have a great selection of eyepieces in the Hyperions and the UHC-S is a good filter too. You could invest in an OIII filter to bring out more detail in objects like M42. And depending on your street lamp type, a Baader Neodymium may help bring out the galaxies a tiny bit by increasing the contrast.

I wouldn't recommend the Canon 450D for planetary imaging. The 450D is a good deepsky camera though. You'll want a webcam or similiar for planetary. The C8-N is fine for planetary imaging though.

[mdstuart]

Buy a book like turn left at orion and then you can find a 100 of the best objects to look at. Last night I was out with my 6 inch scope hunting down double stars. It is really rewarding when a single star splits in to two with high power. They are sometimes really different colours as well which adds another dimension. Have a look at the star at the bottom of the cross of cygnus. It is bright and fab through a scope..

http://www.stargazer-observatory.com/astropics/deepsky/stars/albireo-crop.jpg

[Sci Fi Guy]

Hi Sarah.

I too have just got a C8-NGT and was also having problems aligning it. If Orion is convenient then Betelgeuse makes for a good alignment star.

I tended to find that I could see the star I wanted unaided, but then once my scope had tracked to it, I could see so many more stars the the finder scope and the main tube that I couldn't tell which one I was aiming for!

I was looking at M42 last week, and to be fair it was still pretty low in the sky, plus I have a streetlight across the road, almost directly in my line of sight for Orion.

It does look like a blur, but do try looking slightly to the side of the object for a while and you will be able to see the Trapezium, and you should be able to make out the shape of the cloud.

I'm viewing from my front drive, so it's not ideal, being just two miles from the center of Leeds and facing the city. Try and time your objects to get them as high as possible, and persevere!

Ben

[barkis]

You will have difficulty seeing nebulous objects when the moon is in the sky, as it's light will kill a lot of the fainter objects. I am sure you are aware of that, but I thought I would mention it anyway. The important things have been dealt with by the previous posters. Namely, allowing your eyes time to adapt to the darkness. Do not look at a bright light anywhere, or your vision will be impaired for a while. That includes lighting your cigarette if you smoke.

Once you become adept at finding objects, and able to handle the telescope with confidence, you will really get the best out of it. The greatest tool in the astronomers arsenal is patience.

The telescope is very capable, but you have to train yourself how to use it.

Best Wishes.

Ron.

[brendant]

Hi Sarah,

Agree with all that Rus has advised re what to expect at the eyepiece, most people see all the lovely images like on here and elsewhere and expect to see them at the eyepiece, as Rus says your eyes are just not sensitive enough. To obtain colour in DSO objects you must image them.

With your scopes the 80EDF and the C8-N, best to use the C8 for planetary, star clusters and double stars and most galaxy's due to its longer focal length, and the 80EDF for larger deep sky objects such as nebula etc. This combination of scopes is good and will allow good flexibility in your setup moving forward.

Your 450D will be an excellent camera if you take up imaging in the future for deep sky objects, planets due to their small sizes are best imaged using webcams.

Brendan

[Sarah]

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply. You have all been very helpful. I will definitely make an effort to look for the trapezium next time we have a clear evening, as well as the star at the bottom of the cross of cygnus.

The averted vision is definitely something we will have to try, as well as spending much longer looking at an object.

I thought that as we were outside for a some time our eyes had adjusted enough, but I suppose that when we put a torch on to refer to one of our star books, that we affect our eyes and they will need a bit more time to adjust again once the torch is switched off.

I think we thought that we could just look through the EP and be able to see more than we can, instantly but it sounds like there is a bit more of a technique to it all, as well as having patience. From what I have already read, I did think that our eyes won't see as much as can be captured on some of those beautiful images. I am looking forward to the next clear eve.

I think the OIII filter will be the next thing on the shopping list. I don't think we realised quite how expensive getting into astronomy would be!

What sort of webcam would be good for planetary imaging? Not that we can probably afford to invest in one yet, but it's useful to have an idea of what we might be looking at and how much these things cost!

One other question that I thought of after posting yesterday. Would it make any sense to mount the 80EDF on the C8N? We haven't got a second mount at the moment, although that might be a purchase in the new year, but I wondered if there was any benefit to doing this in the interim? We have to CG5 mount for the C8N.

Thanks very much.

Sarah

[Doc]

Sarah you have some very good and expensive kit and with time and a better understanding of the sky this kit will show you a lot of interesting objects.

As has been mentioned buy a copy of "Turn left at Orion" and download "Stellarium" a free software program. And before you go out make a list of the objects you want to view this way you are not just flinging the scope around in the hope you will find something. You have a dtailed list and concentrate on finding whats on the list.

Your scope from a darkish site should be able to find almost all the Messier objects. They won't look like the magazine photo's and yes most will look like smudges but remember these are 1000's of light years away.

Hope this helps.

[John]

...I think we thought that we could just look through the EP and be able to see more than we can, instantly but it sounds like there is a bit more of a technique to it all, as well as having patience. From what I have already read, I did think that our eyes won't see as much as can be captured on some of those beautiful images. I am looking forward to the next clear eve....

You have really "hit the nail on the head" here Sarah - astronomy is not a hobby of "quick wins". It does take time to develop your viewing techniques and to understand how the strengths and weaknesses of your equipment. I often view the same object night after night (clouds allowing) gradually training my eye to detect the more elusive detail - the saying "the more you look, the more you will see" is very true.

What you can see and how well you can see it will vary from night to night and even from hour to hour becuase of our weather conditions here - some nights look great but you can't see much when you actually get the scope out - a lot of people blame their scope when it's actually poor seeing that's causing them not to be able to pick something out.

I've been at this over 30 years now and I'm still learning all the time

You do have an excellent scope though that has a great deal of potential for a lifetime of observing

John

[MeerkatinBKK]

Hi Sarah,

Regarding a cam for beginning planetary imaging, I use a Celestron NexImage which is basically a webcam with a tube to fit it to the scope. Others go for the webcam itself and do the modifications themselves (one of the Philips ToUcam models seems to be a popular choice and IIRC is the one the NexImage is based on). I'm a bit hamfisted when it comes to practical things like modding stuff, and got a good deal on the Celestron as part of my scope package when I bought it. There are much more expensive models, but I've been happy with the results so far with this relatively inexpensive piece of kit and am learning all the time (I am a total astro-newbie!).

Best of luck,

Nick

[Casus belli]

If there is any direct light shining on your observing site you will struggle to see "faint fuzzies".

Whilst I was observing M1 one night my neigbour turned on his kitchen light. Although the light was masked by curtians it still ruined my night vision and I was unable to see the supernova remnant. 20 minutes after the light was turned out it swam into view.

The moon will also wash out most of these fainter targets.

[Astro_Baby]

The streetlamp will affect your night vision quite badly, also I assume you are using a red light torch to look at stuff. If not get a red light torch. The eye takes about 20 minutes to adjust to darkness and get the best views and if you get white light or streetlights in your line of vision it will take the eyeball another 20 minutes to adjust again usually.

I have been priveleged to view a few times from truly dark sky sites and the views are significantly improved. Another technique to viewing is get a dark cloth/towel and throw it over your head and the eyepiece so that you are in total darkness inside ( think of old fashioned photographers ) - this will also improve the view and its a thing I do when viewing around light pollution.

The rest of its already been said but there are some fantastic objects up there that do give great views but most of them aren't distant nebula.

I have an 8" scope thats the same as your C8N - its only been used once in earnest since I had it but the views were tremendous.

[Sarah]

No we haven't been using a red light torch, so that has been added to the shopping list! We do have houses around us in all directions, so we do have lots of lights on in various windows and I definitely think that one street lamp is causing us problems. I will definitely give the dark cloth/towel a try.

Despite all that, and with the moon being quite bright, we did actually get a reasonable decent view of the orion nebula last night and the trapezium, as well as a double star elsewhere. Feeling much happier after last night's viewing. We did also spend some time looking at the moon with the 8mm EP and 2x barlow. That was pretty amazing in itself, seeing so much detail.

Once again, thanks for all your replies. You have all been very helpful!

Sarah

[kev 102 42]

I love looking at the moon with my binoviewers or on the lap top with my webcam WOW a couple of hours on orion with different EPs ........Kev