Mauna Kea

[DarkLane]

Read this article and I was quite divided by it  Mauna Kea telescope protests

I can remember the violent confrontations between Quebec Mohawk and Federal agents that happened at Oka over a land dispute (golf course development) not dissimilar to this one and my sympathies were with Mohawk rights since it seemed to me that prejudicial courts and church had stripped the land piecemeal away from the Mohawk over decades until they had nothing left. Now I believe a telescope is a far better development than a golf course, but it makes me uneasy to see astronomy advocates push this forward without much consultation with local native peoples. Can science and cultue exist in an imperfect world?

[Carbon Brush]

Thank you for posting this. I was competely unaware of any of these problems.

Historical rights over land are a complex issue that many countries encounter.

At least in Hawaii, protesters will not be removed at gunpoint to vanish forever and have the opportunity to state their case.

There are some countries in the wold where protests are not tolerated at all well.

I will stop there to avoid getting into non SGL allowed territory.

[SteveNickolls]

Hmm, it reads that around a dozen telescopes have already been built there, so what suddenly is the big problem I wonder? Thanks though for bringing this onto SGL for a 'heads up'.

Regards,
Steve

[Buzzard75]

It's not that this is just now becoming a problem. It's that it is just now getting more visibility with other industrial development projects on native lands in the US as of late.

I certainly believe these two worlds in particular (native religion and astronomy) can coexist though and are somewhat related through the heavens above. In particular, just by nature of the environmental requirements for optical telescopes, their construction would do more to preserve the natural area around the site and prevent further commercial, industrial and residential development.

As for the protesters themselves, I would have hoped they would have remained peaceful, which they did for the most part. But when you are blocking a road and physically preventing others from moving, that's where the line is drawn here in the US. You can yell, shout and wield your signs all you want as long as you are not impeding anyone. It is such to hopefully prevent situations from becoming aggressive and violent.

Edited July 18, 2019 by Buzzard75

[DarkLane]

I don´t want to broach any SGL restrictions, I´m new here. I just thought I´d raise awareness. Moderators should feel free to move this discussion if it isn´t appropriate here.  As far as I can tell it isn´t a sudden issue and has been protested from the 1950´s when the scopes were built. The issue seems to be one of legacy appropriation, the University of Hawaii´s rent-free status and foreign investment, lax planning laws in conservation areas, etc etc.  It all sounds quite murky

[Stu]

Nothing wrong with highlighting the issue, so long as the discussion stays clear of politics and other topics which break the CoC.

Thanks!

[bingevader]

Measured from its base, Mauna Kea is the tallest mountain/volcano in the world! There, totally non-political.

2 hours ago, Buzzard75 said:

You can yell, shout and wield your signs all you want as long as you are not impeding anyone.

I think I'd prefer a bit of peaceful sitting in the road myself.

[Buzzard75]

28 minutes ago, bingevader said:

Measured from its base, Mauna Kea is the tallest mountain/volcano in the world! There, totally non-political.

I think I'd prefer a bit of peaceful sitting in the road myself.

I get it, I totally do. I respect everyone's right to free speech and freedom of assembly, but we do have laws. In most states in the US (I can't say all states because I don't know all of them) it is illegal to block a road in protest without an assembly permit. You get a permit and the road will be shutdown temporarily for the duration of the permit. This is how we are able to have marches for causes and things like that. When you decide to just have a sit in on a road, that is when the police get involved and people get arrested. Another example; We had some teachers in a local city protesting for better pay, better benefits and education reform. All things that I completely agree with. However, they were blocking traffic in a major intersection of a downtown area without a permit. They were asked to keep their demonstration to the sidewalks or disperse by the authorities and they refused to comply. Those who refused were subsequently arrested. I agreed with their cause, I disagreed with their methods.

You can have a protest and have your message heard without breaking the law. In both these cases, they were already getting attention from the media and being heard. Unfortunately they chose to take it that one step further with an inevitable conclusion.

[beka]

Hi All,

While the article mentions that the native Hawaiians believe construction of the TMT will "desecrate" the site, throughout history large structures have been built in tribute to cultural and religious beliefs. Somehow huge and ongoing efforts have to be made to convince the protesters that the value of the work done at the observatories for all of humanity, along with the uniqueness of the site's suitability for this type of scientific work, definitively makes this construction of the latter category.

Hoping this issue is resolved to the satisfaction of all parties...

 

[Nigella Bryant]

After reading the article, I actually agreen with the protesters. Many lands have historically taken from the native american Indian let alone other indigenous people not only in the us states but even now in places like south America. I'd better stop or I'll get banned, lol. 

[beka]

42 minutes ago, Nigella Bryant said:

... Many lands have historically taken from the native american Indian let alone other indigenous people not only in the us states but even now in places like south America. I'd better stop or I'll get banned, lol. 

That is true and while I think we shouldn't be completely ignorant of what has happened in the past, some compromise will be needed if humanity is to move forward. I am certain that all of those protesting the TMT are benefiting from the use of products made possible by science and technnology - from the clothes they wear to the food they eat to the mobile phones they are using to organize the protests. None of these would have been possible if we had wanted to preserve the entire Earth in the pristine state it was in 100,000 years ago. We just have to find ways of minimizing the negative impact to the environment or cultural and religious values.

Best 

[johninderby]

At the recent protests in London noted that a certain celebrity flew in from LA for the day just to attend the protest. When reminded that they were protesting among other things about the effects of air travel she just said well I just had to be here. 🙄

Hypocrisy

“the practice of claiming to have higher standards or more noble beliefs than is the case.”

 

Oops........Posted in the wrong thread but I’ll leave it.

 

Edited July 20, 2019 by johninderby

[maw lod qan]

There's no more of a, let's use the word, rebel, than me. I feel the anguish and pain, and understand it, but sometimes you have to sit down, talk and come to some agreement.

Mount Rushmore was built on sacred land. Do we send men up there an desecrate the monument now, to satisfy someone's, concerns, as real as they seem to them?

Why not let the countries that harvested whales as a way of life continue their heritage?

This is another example of the extremes we see today throughout the entire world. With so many that would try to stop, what is impossible to stop. Mankind moving forward.

If its sacred land, gather together, pray, dance, chant, do what ever it is you do, and try to help MANKIND, not just your group.

Again,  WE, have to overlook our small differences in favor of the big picture.

Education, which this will be, learning something unknown, will hopefully benefit us all. 

Wouldn't that please the Gods.

Sorry, I'll get off my soap box.