Two Eyepieces at Once - Binoviweing

[joe1950]

Thank you so much Stu... and everyone! Interest has been wonderful for this topic. Often my topics are so bad I have to reply to myself, just for the numbers! 🥴.

   

I took a couple pix of the areas I was looking at last evening; the Plato area and the Straight Wall and Lunar Highlands. These are only single frame images taken with a handheld iPhone, so nothing special, no stacking or the like. I'm not an AP-er by any means. The images some of those folks get are unbelievable!

Thanks again Stu, and all! 

joe

Just an added tidbit about the Straight Wall.  I read a while back it isn't an actual wall, but rather a slope. Kind of disappointing, actually. It is a fault line, but not a straight drop. I can't recall the actual grade angle, but the article said if you were at the bottom of the wall, and helped by the lower gravity of the moon, you could walk up it if you were so inclined (no pun intended). I'd rather it was a straight drop. Much more alluring.

[Geoff Barnes]

7 minutes ago, joe1950 said:

Often my topics are so bad I have to reply to myself, just for the numbers!

🤣

[Stu]

Great shots Joe. Quite often I take smartphone shots, handheld through one channel of my binoviewer because I don't want to mess around with the setup. It works surprisingly well!

[joe1950]

Thank you, Stu! It does work well. Though my hand shakes holding it since there is nothing to hold it against. I have one of those brackets and next time I'll use it.

6AM here! Can't sleep at night and can't stay awake during the day. My clock is out of sync.

[Louis D]

4 hours ago, joe1950 said:

Thank you, Stu! It does work well. Though my hand shakes holding it since there is nothing to hold it against. I have one of those brackets and next time I'll use it.

6AM here! Can't sleep at night and can't stay awake during the day. My clock is out of sync.

Try the technique I've been mastering taking photos of the AFOVs of eyepieces with my cellphone camera.  Put your thumb and index finger around the rim of the eyepiece.  Next, lower your phone until the field stop just pops into view and the image is centered.  Roll your thumb and finger to come into contact with the phone, and then raise and lower your phone using your finger and thumb to maintain a stable connection to the eyepiece and to keep it level and centered with respect to the eyepiece.  I couldn't get decent photos just trying to hover it above the eyepiece.  There are just too many variables at play (pitch, yaw, x/y/z placement) to get a good image.

[joe1950]

That sounds like a great technique, Louis! I will definitely do that next time I use the phone for images.

My hand was dancing all over the place and even when I had the moon in view it was moving all over the screen. So much for steady hands! I'm surprised a few came out with any sharpness at all.  I guess the brightness of the moon kept the shutter speed fast enough to freeze the motion, but I'd rather use your technique and take no chances!

Thank you very much Louis.

[Rusted]

I find flash usually freezes the image.  ⛈️

[Peter Drew]

12 hours ago, joe1950 said:

That sounds like a great technique, Louis! I will definitely do that next time I use the phone for images.

My hand was dancing all over the place and even when I had the moon in view it was moving all over the screen. So much for steady hands! I'm surprised a few came out with any sharpness at all.  I guess the brightness of the moon kept the shutter speed fast enough to freeze the motion, but I'd rather use your technique and take no chances!

Thank you very much Louis.

We use a Celestron NexYZ phone bracket for outreach photography, quick and easy to use and visitors are thrilled with their "selfie" images.    😀

[joe1950]

A flash of lightning usually freezes me as well, Rusted. You know, I've watched some vids on lightning. What an interesting topic that is. Seen in ultra slow motion, numerous 'feelers' come down from the cloud to the surface. When the best path is found, sometimes as close as 50' from the strike point, the main strike follows its path, and none of the others! Fascinating.

Peter, I have an adjustable bracket and they help a great deal, I just get lazy and do it the hard way. Also, I found an app that allows for full control of the focus, shutter and ISO. Called 'YAMERA' for iPhone. There are many others. I find the settings don't jump all over the place as they sometimes do when on auto mode.

Let me share one more observing session, from last night.

Conditions: Good transparency, 4-5/10 seeing with obvious image animation, Jupiter at 26° altitude, the moon a little higher, but only 10° to the west of Jupiter. Scope used was the Bresser 127mm Mak, f/15, Arctutus binoviewer, (2) 12.5mm Meade Super Plössls.

The moon had the boiling type seeing but the detail observed was simply outstanding at 152x. I was able to see 3 craterlets on the floor of Plato, although they were in and out; but definitely visible. They are not easy objects from my location.

Jupiter too exhibited exceptional detail, when seeing permitted. Both NEB and SEB had excellent detail and contrast. At the equator, some lower contrast detail was also visible.

Last year I used this scope extensively on Jupiter which was at about the same altitude. Good detail was observed, but nothing like the detail I witnessed during this session. It was noticeably better using binovision. I have to say, these results have me pretty much sold on the advantage of a binoviewer, even with a lower cost model, at least as seen through my old eyes and processed through my average brain.

 

My new 102mm scope is delayed an extra day. I believe UPS wants to drive it over more road ruts and potholes a little longer. Of the three major shipping companies, none of which are held in high esteem, they are the least favorite, IMHO.

The very best to all! Thank you for posting and reading!

joe

Update: 7/14

Now, the scope delivery is back on schedule! 

Supposed to be clear this evening. We'll see. The heat and humidity are oppressive. Typical for this time of year. And endless mosquitos, the New Jersey state bird, are waiting for anyone who ventures out, day or night. 

My next thought is to try binoviewing on the moon and planets using some light color filters to see how they react to using both eyes. With monoviewing, I have to say color filters have minimal effect in my experience. But possibly they would be better performers with a BVer.

The best for the upcoming week!!!

joe

Edited July 14, 2019 by joe1950
Addition

[joe1950]

I’ll report for last night and tonight, trying not to drag it on. 😄

Last night I tested a couple filters with the binoviewer viewing Jupiter. I really have to say I did not feel there was any advantage using them (medium blue and light yellow). 

I’m not a filter person anyway. It may require practice to notice differences, or maybe they work better in larger scopes, with more light.

Today, the new (to me) scope arrived! It’s a Celesrptron Omni XLT 102 ED. It’s very nice, good condition and sat okay on my Celestron Alt-Az scope. It’s an inexpensive but decent mount. With the 102 mm on it, the shaking and moment of inertia swaying were not bad at all.

I took it out tonight. Very hot and humid, and the bugs were everywhere. Seeing was 4/5 at best. Again, a lot of boiling and image animation. In fact, looking at Jupiter’s moons, they appeared to be moving around.

I did use the Binoviewer on the scope, had no problem with reaching focus, with plenty to spare.

The view of Jupiter was simply amazing. I was able to see more belts, more belt detail and detail between the belts. I was amazed. It was the best I’ve seen Jupiter in many, many years.

It’s still a grab and go scope. But I was correct that anything larger and/or heavier might be stretching the limit.

So, I’m very happy with it. I’ll post some photos.

Thank you,

joe

[Rusted]

Keep it coming Joe. We enjoy your enthusiasm.

Congratulations on the fine, new addition to your armoury.

It sounds as if this planet, which you call Jupiter, actually exists behind our perpetual clouds.

I've also heard that there's a Moon, called Armstrong, somewhere up there too.

Can you confirm this?

 

[joe1950]

Thank you for the kind words, Rusted. You know, the last two or three weeks have seen an unusual number of clear evening skies! One in particular was extraordinary.  But we’ll pay! We always do. 😀

So, yes, I can confirm through the use of empirical observation, the existence of those two extraordinary and lovely objects.

What I can’t confirm and am growing suspicious of, Rusted, is the existence of that which is called the Milky Way! Now I have an open mind. I’ve seen photos of this. But even when the skies are totally clear, I’ve not seen it in decades! Not a trace. It may have existed at one time, but where did it go? 🥴

Edited July 16, 2019 by joe1950

[Rusted]

Hi Joe,

I can confirm that The Milky Way is in safe keeping up here in Darkest Scandinavia.
Strangely enough, we discovered early on that most vehicles have headlights fitted by law.
So they don't need extra [street] lights just to see the way ahead on every lane and highway.
Nor is there any reason to light up the high street when only the homeless are there at night. 

[Peter Drew]

The exit from the Astronomy Centre on to the main road is a little precarious due to banking obstructions, difficult to see approaching cars with a well lit road at night. Last year new streetlighting was installed using better shielded LED units and for some fortuitous reason the ones nearest to us are permanently off. The result is that we can easily be aware that a vehicle is arriving, even from some distance due to the glow of the obligatory headlights.   😀 

[Louis D]

9 hours ago, joe1950 said:

What I can’t confirm and am growing suspicious of, Rusted, is the existence of that which is called the Milky Way! Now I have an open mind. I’ve seen photos of this. But even when the skies are totally clear, I’ve not seen it in decades! Not a trace. It may have existed at one time, but where did it go? 🥴

I used to live withing 2 hours of NYC, and I can confirm the MW is a no-show there.  Your best bet from your location would be to head 5 hours NW to the area north of State College, PA, near Keating, PA.  That area is around a Bortle 2/3, so you should be able to see the MW from there.

[joe1950]

Thank you, Rusted. I have to admit, I was concerned about its existence.

Good to hear, Peter! Sounds like the traffic folks are doing some thinking! 

I've been a crossing guard for the last four years, even though retired. My post was very, very busy as both students from the high school and middle school crossed there. Over last summer, the principal of the middle school decided to move the starting time up to coincide with the high school to gain 20 minutes of additional instructional time per day. The police dept, who I worked for, was strongly against it citing the traffic problems it would cause.

They went ahead with it anyway, and sure enough when I started back there last September, it was total chaos. I eventually wrote an extensive email describing the dangers this changed posed and the traffic officer tried to get it changed, but the school administration and board refused to budge (and admit an error).

It was so bad, I had to resign after the year was over. I feel very badly for whoever is posted there next year.

Louis, that is probably in the Pocono Mountain area. It is a great sky there and I wish I was closer, but with age I seem to travel less. When Neil DeGrasse Tyson was a youth in the NY school system, they went on a field trip to that area because of the dark skies. Young Neil was said to look up at the sky and say, "Wow! It's just like the Hayden Planetarium!"

 

Looks like the next several days will have unsettled weather. Joy.  Hazy, Hot, Humid with thunderstorms. Really oppressive, and throw in the insect menace, it's no fun. New Jersey has a very nice and comfortable average climate. However the conditions are never average!

 

Cheers. I'll post some pix of the new (to me) 102 soon. I had it out once and it was excellent.

joe

Edited July 16, 2019 by joe1950

[Moonshane]

I use binos for solar, lunar and planetary but never got on with them for general observing. The main issue for me is comfort. I find that with binos you just sink into the view and relax which for me makes for more detailed observing. I find lower powers are best and around the 100x mark is just amazing for most targets although for Ha solar, about 70x is best for me.

On planets and the moon (and sometime white light solar) you can use more but the views are never as impressive, sharp and contrasty as at about 100x. I use a pair of Baader Maxbrights and TV plossls (8mm, 11mm, 20mm, 25mm) and a pair of 15mm Panoptics. I may eventually change the 20mm and 25mm plossls to 19mm and 24mm Panoptics as I have one each of these currently too.

I do sometimes use mono for viewing solar but my kit is now set up for full disk viewing and changing requires a lot of extension. I often use mono for planets when I am just having a quick peek.

[joe1950]

Very good points made Moonshane! The comfort difference is huge and very likely a significant part of the reason more detail is seen. Both the eyes and brain are operating in a more normal mode. I always prefer magnification on the lower side. The sharpness and contrast are stunning. Overpowering a scope, while some like to reach the upper limits, is just too mushy for my liking. And, depending on the quality of the scope, of course, getting the correct focus becomes more difficult.

Another plus for binovision is that at a given magnification, the object you're observing appears larger.

Very nice eyepiece kit! The TV Plossls have extraordinary light throughput which matches up well with a binoviewer. At the longer focal lengths Plossls are comfortable. But the Panoptics are gems, indeed!  I've never had the pleasure of using the Maxbrights.

I would say that mixing your viewing between monovision and binovision is a good idea. Kind of like keeping in shape for either. Some try binovision and have difficulties, likely caused by mechanical deficiencies with the viewer, and drop it for good. Others like it so much they won't do any monoviewing. I'd like to keep both options open but I don't know how it will end up.

The sky here is so poor, lunar, planetary and some doubles are really all I can do, and they lend themselves to binoviewing. So we'll see.

Thanks very much, Moonshane! All the best!

joe 

[AlentejoSkies]

Great thread. Thanks.

As I will soon have a nice 8" f/6 mirror set in the post thanks to @Stu, I've been giving a bit of thought to putting together a dob optimised for binoviewing, and was out again last night trying a few eyepiece combinations with the kit I have to see if this is the way to go. Here's a few rambling notes from last night's testing...

Targets: Jupiter and Saturn. Site: Alentejo, Southern Portugal.

Scope 6" f/8 homebuilt dob, WO binoviwers, a couple of glass path correctors (GPCs)

In the last four years I've put some effort into learning about and using astronomical optics - and I already had a good professional background in optics. I've learned a lot, but what most amazes me is what I see through the eyepiece now using actually the first equipment I bought and made. When I first built this scope I was impressed to see faint lines on Jupiter. Now I see swirls and patterns, a wealth of colour. The question is not whether I can detect the GRS, but how does it look tonight. The globe is full of features. What once looked like an aspirin now looks like a photo with character and characteristic. I have acquired quite some equipment since those first days, but I'm talking about using exactly the same setup as I started with. The only thing that changed there was me. And a lot of that had to do with getting comfortable and using binviewers.

Anyway, I was actually checking  a few eyepiece combinations, bino versus single.

First test: Televue 15mm Plössl on one eye, Vixen 15mm NPL on the other. 2 X GPC correctors for a total magnification of about 220. I can only reach focus with stacked GPCs at the moment. Next scope should be different. Hence the experiments.

These two 15mm Plössls are not parfocal, but with a bit of fiddling around, I was surprised to find it works. The difference between the two eyepieces was minimal center and edge. I could convince myself either way which was better, and will keep that question open for now. What was obvious is that the Plössls were way better off-axis than the WO 20mm pair that came with the BVs, that I usually love.

On these planets, I just love the immersive view of two eyes. I can watch the planet move across the field of view again and again. One-eyed viewing for me seems technical in comparison.

But then just as I was convinced again that nothing beats binoviewing, I did try a nice little 9mm volcano top ortho with one GPC srewed directly into the bottom to more or less match magnification to the above pairs. And then I had to admit that there was clarity and detail there that was not with the combinations I have available for binoviewing. Tried to see if that still held true if I just used half the binoviewer and my one ortho, but the need to stack GPCs gave too high magnification - horrible.

Not a super-fair test as the unmatched magnifications makes a big difference in itself. But this morning I couldn't resist buying that second 9mm Ortho that's been on ABS for a while! Let's see what happens with two! And the next scope will definitely be built with some way of setting up for binoviewing with and without GPCs.

Will try tonight with the ETX-105. Totally different beast, but it has a much larger range of focus and can handle binoviewing without GPC.

[Pingster]

I have stayed exclusive to Binoviewing since a member here recommended it to me Im sire about 7years have passed now. I only use the 31nag every so often just for a quick view just to remind myself how much better binos are. Im keeping the 31ethos... so one day i can bino with 2in pairs 😀😀😀

[joe1950]

Excellent report Alentejo! 8” f6 is a great scope and would show a lot with a binoviewer. Plenty of light available and fine detail. 

Some try binoviewing and change to it totally. Some like it but go back. If you can do both and find which kind of objects you like with each, you’ll have the best of both worlds.

Thank you for the very nice comments, my friend!

 

I’ll have to admit, Pingster, if I had an eyepiece kit consisting of premium eyepieces, I would be reluctant to ditch them or buy a second of each. That could get rather expensive. 

But the experience is so compelling to use binoviewers, it’s hard to give up once you’ve seen the wonderful views. Thanks Pingster!

[joe1950]

Even though the atmospherics havn't cooperated, and the altitude of Jupiter is dismally low (down in the weeds as we say), I'm getting good views of it with the new (to me) Celestron Omni XLT 102 ED, f/8.8.  I was fortunate to get a Vixen mount and a dual-speed focuser by way of trade and kindness of a friend who thins the herd at times to my advantage. I'll get a photo posted soon.

It's been horribly hot outside and I can't even walk out there for a few minutes to take a photo. The weather broke today, but some rain still falling. How it works here is we will have a week or more of a heat wave...90° or more for 5 or 7 days in a row. This last one was a week long. Oh and there is high humidity. Very high. And unending bugs of all type.

The weather will cool as a front comes through, with thunderstorms and an occasional tornado (nothing like the midwest) and it may be cool for a day or two, maybe three. Then a new heat wave starts.

But more to the point. Two nights ago I went out in the sultry weather and Jupiter was visible albeit through haze. I brought out my kit of mono eyepieces which are identical to the BST Starguider ED versions sold here in the UK. Excellent EPs for the price. I have all but the 25mm.

So, as a check, I tried monovision again with a couple different focal lengths, and I couldn't see half the detail I had with the binoviewer. That, I found upsetting. Perhaps my eyes are spoiled with binovision. Maybe if I ever decided to return to monovision due to, say a weakness in one eye, it would take a while to readjust. 

Plus, these great eyepieces I struggled to collect are sitting doing nothing. I wouldn't sell them, for fear I may need them at some point. It is one of the conundrums of binoviewing!

Let me close ( 👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽 ), by describing my binoviewer. There are actually two but one belongs to my son. The one I use most is a converted microscope stereo viewer made by Nikon. It has a nosepiece converted to 1.25" for direct use with a scope. I have 2 Barlow/transfer lenses, running at about 2x, but giving different magnification at the eyepieces. One is a Baader 2x and the other is a Burgess 1.8x. Both are very good.

The eyepieces are 23mm diameter microscope eyepiece and they fit into a spring held tube, which is very accurate for alignment. I always get registered views. The pairs I have are 10X (25mm), 16X (15/6mm), 20X (12.5mm) and I'm waiting on a pair of 25X (10mm). $23 for the pair and they are all metal and very good. These are made by a company called AmScope and are said to be 'Achromatic, Japanese Industrial Standard.' 

The eyepieces and the binoviewer are sharp and show no false color, and the eyepieces have, I would guess, about a 55-58° field.

The thing is, and I've checked and checked, NOTHING has ANY antireflection coating on them! At least none that I can see. This includes the binoviewer and the eyepieces. Despite that, the light getting through is at least as good as the other (Arcturus) viewer, and I see no internal reflections or ghosting! Do microscopes and parts not use antireflection coatings? Everywhere I look at microscope eyepieces, not a word is mentioned about coatings.

There are a lot of, shall we say, paradoxical experiences in using binoviewers, and this is certainly one that befuddles me!

Thank you.

joe

Edited July 23, 2019 by joe1950

[Louis D]

On 23/07/2019 at 09:45, joe1950 said:

Do microscopes and parts not use antireflection coatings? Everywhere I look at microscope eyepieces, not a word is mentioned about coatings.

I'll have to double check, but as I recall, most AO and B&L microscope eyepieces were singly coated with magnesium fluoride (light violet) back in the 60s and 70s.  Russian made microscope eyepieces of the 90s were more complexly coated and appeared green with hints of other colors.  I don't know about modern, Chinese or Japanese made microscope eyepieces.  I'm sure high end microscope eyepieces from Zeiss, Leica, Nikon, and Olympus are fully multicoated.

[joe1950]

Thank you Louis!

The one I have is a Nikon, from a Nikon microscope and the fellow I got it from says it is coated, but not easily seen. It may be an older version with what he called 2-layer coatings. The eyepieces from AmScope also have a light 2-layer coating on them. He says the folks using microscopes with these BVrs and eyepieces must have very natural color reproduction so the dyes they used are identified properly.

In any case, the Nikon has excellent light throughput, no apparent scatter or ghosting or internal reflections. So whatever is on there is working for me! 😍  Plus it is lightweight with the smaller eyepieces and build. I also have my son's Arcturus BVer and they are close in performance. But the Arcturus is heavier and larger. That is definitely AR coated.

Here is my new to me, Celestron Omni XLT 102 ED (that's a mouthful!).

I really like the scope and it is just right for the mount. Together, as one piece, I can carry it out, move among the trees and back in. Much heavier and it would be a strain.

Views of Jupiter, even down in the weeds as it is have been excellent. I've seen several belts and structures and a couple festoons and white oval storms. Seeing has not cooperated and if the planet was higher I'm sure it would be that much better. This all with the binoviewer. If I try a mono eyepiece I don't see half the detail. but I'm sure I'm out of monovision practice and it would be better given time. 

The binoviewer is just so much more comfortable and the detail is right there for the taking. Why struggle?

This scope is probably a cousin of my C80ED, made before 2010 and sold under other brand names. It uses Ohara FPL-53 glass and CA is invisible in my old eyes. So If I can't see it, it isn't there!!

I think it's dark blue because they used the same tubes for the Meade version and just slapped on the appropriate logo. I would have preferred the white accents with the OTA being that Aston Martin Pearl Grey, Yum! That's what the Astro-Tec 102 scopes uses but they have a white tube and grey accents. I love that really classy James Bond grey!

So, I'm all set! I figure I'll use the 102 for normal sessions and when the planets are about, and the 80mm for quicker take-outs and when it gets cold outdoors.

All the best!  joe

Edited July 25, 2019 by joe1950