Zwo Vs altair

[FLO]

15 hours ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

Cool, thank you. Is there anything on the immediate ZWO horizon that's going to replace or better the 183mc pro. 

Not that we are aware. Usually if they have something new to announce you will see it, or a prototype, at NEAF. (NEAF was only a week ago). 

Steve 

[Anthonyexmouth]

3 minutes ago, FLO said:

Not that we are aware. Usually if they have something new to announce you will see it, or a prototype, at NEAF. (NEAF was only a week ago). 

Steve 

I had been scouring the neaf YouTube videos trying to zoom in on the model numbers but couldn't see anything new. 

 

[Anthonyexmouth]

17 hours ago, FLO said:

Things were delayed a little while ZWO attended NEAF in the US but it might be closer than you think. I’ll check when at my desk tomorrow. 

HTH, 

Steve 

Did your get a chance to check on expected stock timeframe? 

 

[FLO]

35 minutes ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

Did your get a chance to check on expected stock timeframe? 

I did ? 

We have some arriving next week, probably towards the end of the week. At the risk of sounding like a salesman can I suggest you place your order soon because most of the incoming cameras have already sold. 

They are normally here at our warehouse available for overnight delivery but (I confess) we forgot to submit a larger than usual order prior to NEAF ? 

Steve

[davew]

On 07/04/2019 at 12:34, Adam J said:

 

The math is quite easy:

Required filter diameter = ((Total distance from Filter to sensor / F-ratio) + (Sensor Diagonal / 2)) x 2

Remember that the sensor distance has to include the distance to the filter within the filter wheel (~6mm for zwo wheel).

So total distance from sensor to filter = 23.5mm for Altair Camera.

Altair 1600 TEC + ZWO filter wheel (This assumes the camera has a male connection if not then the back focus will further increase so you may have to add another 1-2mm).

F4 = ((23.5 / 4) + (21.9 / 2)) x 2 = 33.7 mm

F5 = ((23.5 / 5) + (21.9 / 2)) x 2 = 31.3 mm

F6 = ((23.5 / 6) + (21.9 / 2)) x 2 = 29.7 mm

F7 = ((23.5 / 7) + (21.9 / 2)) x 2 = 28.6 mm

So if you want no vignetting with 31mm filters its F6 or slower, if you accept moderate but correctable vignetting its F5 or slower and by the time you get to F4 you are going to be losing quite allot of signal in the corners of the image. That all assumes your optics are perfectly collimated because if not things will be worse.

So you can get away with 31mm filters, but I would not use them faster than F6 if it was me. To get to F5 I would want 36mm filters. 

In terms of 1.25 inch filter (clear aperture = 25mm -> 26mm then you might just get away with it at F6.4 dependent on filter mounting but you will be seeing some significant vignetting.

Compare that to the ASI1600mm pro ZWO filter wheel.

F4 = ((12.5 / 4) + 21.9 / 2)) x 2 = 28.2 mm

F5 = ((12.5 / 5) + 21.9 / 2)) x 2 = 26.9 mm

F6 = ((12.5 / 6) + 21.9 / 2)) x 2 = 26.1 mm

F7 = ((12.5 / 7) + 21.9 / 2)) x 2 = 25.5 mm

So you can use it with 31mm down to F4 or even faster, and you can reasonably use it 1.25 inch filter down to F5 or even F4 if you are willing to accept some moderate vignetting.

Hope this makes everything clear.

Adam

 

An excellent post full of really good information and assessment.

Thank you.

Dave.

[Anthonyexmouth]

Ok, the 183mc pro is in the basket and I'm ready to go to the checkout. Can someone please help me decide what filter to get without the need for me to live on beans for the rest of the year. I know I'm gonna need at least an ir cut filter. I live in town under bortle 4 skies. I use an astronomik clip in filter with my canon which made a big difference to the background but moving to a more sensitive dedicated camera will that make things worse or will I be grabbing shorter but more data filled subs that can be corrected in post without a lps filter. I thought choosing the camera was bad enough, now this. 

[knobby]

Are you just after an IR or LP ?

[Anthonyexmouth]

That's what I'm trying to decide. Whether I can get away with just an IR or whether I need an lps 

[knobby]

I'm really no expert but personally I don't like what they do to star colour . I'm sure the good ones are 'good' but I've only tried the explore scientific which is decidedly bluey green. The optolong gets good reviews @StaceStar uses one.

Edit - also how are you fitting it ?

Edited April 12, 2019 by knobby

[Anthonyexmouth]

The optolong l pro is on my list, depending on price I'll aim for a 2" one to screw onto the flattener.

Isn't it the l pro max from skytech that she uses? 

Edited April 12, 2019 by Anthonyexmouth

[knobby]

Actually you might be correct ? too many l pro names !

If you're near FLO see what they recommend, they aren't just sellers they're astronomers too.

[Anthonyexmouth]

Yeah been taking to them. Days he's not keen on advising on what one to go for as too many variables, which is fair. Just nice to hear from others in with the same kinda sky conditions and maybe a similar camera to see what they use. I like the look of the idas d2 but bit pricey buying with the camera. Need something cheaper. 

[Adam J]

On 11/04/2019 at 17:16, Anthonyexmouth said:

Tec cooled. Wonder what the quality of the AA filter is. 

If there oiii filters are anything to go by I would look elsewhere. 

[Adam J]

On 12/04/2019 at 19:45, Anthonyexmouth said:

Yeah been taking to them. Days he's not keen on advising on what one to go for as too many variables, which is fair. Just nice to hear from others in with the same kinda sky conditions and maybe a similar camera to see what they use. I like the look of the idas d2 but bit pricey buying with the camera. Need something cheaper. 

It depends on the type of light pollution but the D2 is supposed to be good against the harsher white led lighting, something like the L-pro or the p2 is better against the more modern wamer yellow tinted led lighting. If you have a mix then get the D2.

Edited April 14, 2019 by Adam J

[Anthonyexmouth]

Well I'm going to give the skytech l pro a go, it's a reasonable price and popular enough that of its no good in my area it will sell again, then i will have to dig a little deeper and get the idas d2. 

[Anthonyexmouth]

Question for the 183mc owners out there. When I get mine, it's obviously going to be cloudy for weeks after. During that time I want to build a full library. What exposure lengths would be most common for this camera? 

Also, what's the difference between a dark library and a master dark? 

[Adam J]

11 hours ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

Question for the 183mc owners out there. When I get mine, it's obviously going to be cloudy for weeks after. During that time I want to build a full library. What exposure lengths would be most common for this camera? 

Also, what's the difference between a dark library and a master dark? 

A master dark simply refairs to the image obtained from stacking dark frame subs. To create a master dark you will want to get at least 30 or so sub frames taken at the same temperature and exposure settings as your light frames but with the camera sensor covered. 

For each temperature, exposure length, bias and gain setting combination you use in your light frames you will need to create a new master dark by stacking dark frames of the same settings.

As for settings. I am lead to believe that this sensor does not like very high gain so I would probably start out by trying -20c, unity gain 120, and exposures of 2mins for F5, of which I would be getting a minimum of 60 for all but the very brightest targets, preferably much more. 

[Anthonyexmouth]

I use darks now most of the time, just want sure about the master dark, So does a master dark replace an unstacked group of darks when stacking with light frames? 

 

[knobby]

Thats my understanding Anthony but I've not tried yet.

[Anthonyexmouth]

54 minutes ago, knobby said:

Thats my understanding Anthony but I've not tried yet.

Sounds too simple doesn't it. 

Because of stock shortages I've started questioning my decision again. Flip flopping between the 183 and 294. 

[Adam J]

1 hour ago, Anthonyexmouth said:

Sounds too simple doesn't it. 

Because of stock shortages I've started questioning my decision again. Flip flopping between the 183 and 294. 

The OSC camera I would be choosing would be the QHY168c or the QHY268c if its cheap enough when it comes out. The QHY168c has going for it: big sensor, no amp glow, calibrates perfectly, low dark current, reliable cooling (still not totally so for the ASI071mc pro i hear), large full well capacity with high dynamic range and a nice balance of read noise / pixel size.

But out of those though two I would go with the 294, its just more sensitive with the lower read noise and larger pixels. Sure its got some issues with background calibration but it makes up for that in sensitivity and sensor size.  I have always thought that the 183 is a reasonable mono sensor, but have never had a wow moment when viewing images from the OSC variant. On the other hand I have seen awesome images from the QHY168c.

Goto Astrobin:

http://www.astrobin.com/welcome/

In Search Type: QHY168c 

Look at the images, then type ASI183mc pro in search  and look at the images. 

Lots of different setups and other factors of course, but as a whole taken across many images, for me the winner is very clear.  

But even after saying all that....go mono.

Adam

Edited April 16, 2019 by Adam J

[Waynescave]

On 28/03/2019 at 19:01, FLO said:

It is not the same.

ZWO does not make cameras for Altair Astro.

A Chinese company called ToupTek make Altair Astro's cameras.

HTH, 

Steve 

Are you sure about this? As in their description they state they are better than a lot of Chinese cheaper models... 

[JamesF]

6 minutes ago, Waynescave said:

Are you sure about this? As in their description they state they are better than a lot of Chinese cheaper models... 

Altair cameras use a version of ToupTek's SDK, and in fact some Altair cameras are recognised by ToupTek's SDK for their own cameras.  That wouldn't stop the Altair models having minor differences to their ToupTek equivalents, obviously, but it's pretty suggestive as to the origin of the hardware.

James

[Adam J]

 

13 minutes ago, Waynescave said:

Are you sure about this? As in their description they state they are better than a lot of Chinese cheaper models... 

Possibly the best way to describe it is that Altair have commissioned ToupTek to produce a camera to their specification and there are differences in the Altair cameras from the ToupTek branded models. However they are Chinese made and they are not associated with ZWO.

[Waynescave]

1 minute ago, JamesF said:

Altair cameras use a version of ToupTek's SDK, and in fact some Altair cameras are recognised by ToupTek's SDK for their own cameras.  That wouldn't stop the Altair models having minor differences to their ToupTek equivalents, obviously, but it's pretty suggestive as to the origin of the hardware.

James

I see what you're saying. 

And this is probably true for a lot of different brands hardwares origin... 🤔

I'm following this post as I too am leaning towards hypercam Pro tec cooled 183 mono.. With a case, power supply and slightly faster frame rate.. Than the zwo 183 equivalent? 

My next question I'm asking myself is if the 2.4 size pixel in the 183mono is better suited to my esprit120ed f7 than the larger 1600mono pixels in my good to very good seeing conditions... Hmm mm brain need tec cooling now! 😂😂