Controversial Topic! Advice to Beginners.

[Stu]

10 minutes ago, JOC said:

I have still not clapped eyes on the The Veil - despite its size

The Veil is one of those 'easy to find, needs the right conditions to see' objects. Plonk the scope on 52 Cygni (itself quite easy to find) and the Western Veil streams right through it, but if your skies aren't dark or transparent enough, you still won't see it.

[markclaire50]

28 minutes ago, JOC said:

The thing is the Goto is no guarantee of the certainly of finding an object.  I have still not clapped eyes on the The Veil - despite its size, some nebulas I still haven't found despite the goto slewing to them etc.  Satisfacion still exists even with the Goto.  As I note above as a beginner I often have no idea of the size of object I am chasing.  This is where magnification becomes very important.  It is very difficult chasing the ring nebula with the 32mm in place in a 1200mm FL scope.  It resembles little more than a faint slightly fat star and is easily overlooked until you've found it for the first time and know what you are after.  Yet, conversely chasing The Veil or Andromeda galaxy with a 10mm in place and you are probably going to still miss the main show and not realise that you have found something.

Crikey!  That IS bad, I don't think I have skies that are exceptional, but Orion twinkles like the pride in the sky here!

You make a very good point. My goto slewed into position on owl ? nebula. I couldn't see anything. I then had to slew it to a star to check if in centre, it was, but slewing back to ? nebula, nothing. Was it there or not? Was it me or the scope's ability that was lacking? I've had similar disappointment with other stars and messier objects. So absolutely right. Hunting is still needed even if you know its in fov. A similar thing happened with iwamoto recently. I'm certain I had its position locked on target with goto, and I had to keep looking at sky safari on my phone. After switching to horizontal flip, the stars in my fov matched exactly what I was seeing. But no iwamoto. Was it me or the 80mm ed? Too high mag, even at 25x?should I have dropped in the stock 28mm to give 21x and bigger exit pupil? Other posts later suggested I should have. Or was sky too light polluted? Mmm?. My hunt failed even with advanced tech. 

Mark

[vlaiv]

8 minutes ago, markclaire50 said:

You make a very good point. My goto slewed into position on owl ? nebula. I couldn't see anything. I then had to slew it to a star to check if in centre, it was, but slewing back to ? nebula, nothing. Was it there or not? Was it me or the scope's ability that was lacking? I've had similar disappointment with other stars and messier objects. So absolutely right. Hunting is still needed even if you know its in fov. A similar thing happened with iwamoto recently. I'm certain I had its position locked on target with goto, and I had to keep looking at sky safari on my phone. After switching to horizontal flip, the stars in my fov matched exactly what I was seeing. But no iwamoto. Was it me or the 80mm ed? Too high mag, even at 25x?should I have dropped in the stock 28mm to give 21x and bigger exit pupil? Other posts later suggested I should have. Or was sky too light polluted? Mmm?. My hunt failed even with advanced tech. 

Mark

I think Owl nebula is a myth

I've searched for it numerous times in dark skies without any luck - still have not seen it.

[markclaire50]

Just now, vlaiv said:

I think Owl nebula is a myth

I've searched for it numerous times in dark skies without any luck - still have not seen it.

I'm beginning to believe that too! Perhaps the person who named it wasn't a very good birdwatcher! ? 

It probably looks like a crow! 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, alanjgreen said:

However, if you love crawling about on your hands and knees trying to find something in a finder

I thought was the only one doing this, glad to know its not just me then

 

[Stu]

41 minutes ago, markclaire50 said:

I had to keep looking at sky safari on my phone.

Don't forget that if you are looking for faint objects, your phone will generally kill your night vision unless you have it set very faint and red only, or have a red film over it. iPhones have a great setting for turning everything red even the home screen, plus reducing the white point so it is very dim. Not sure if Android phones can do this too?

[markclaire50]

6 minutes ago, AstroCiaran123 said:

I thought was the only one doing this, glad to know its not just me then

 

Well the other night, when I was trying to look directly through my mak, to assess view with no diagonal, I ended up using my dressing gown scrunched up on a metal chair to give me extra height. Very precarious! It was too late to lower tripod legs, as I would lose tracking if I'd done that. I concluded little difference between stock diagonal and no diagonal, in the case of the mak. Haven't tested frac yet. 

[markclaire50]

8 minutes ago, Stu said:

Don't forget that if you are looking for faint objects, your phone will generally kill your night vision unless you have it set very faint and red only, or have a red film over it. iPhones have a great setting for turning everything red even the home screen, plus reducing the white point so it is very dim. Not sure if Android phones can do this too?

It was set to red. ??its android. Good because synscan and sky safari play nicely, but I believe not so on iPhones?

[Stu]

3 minutes ago, markclaire50 said:

It was set to red. ??its android. Good because synscan and sky safari play nicely, but u believe not so on iPhones. 

Good then. I just found out how to do this on Android.

You are correct iPhones wont run two apps simultaneously so Synscan and Skysafari won't be friends currently.

[Guest]

Anyone know of an Android app that'll turn the screen red ?

 

[adyj1]

I've used an android app called Twilight, which is ok when you are in an app, but the main status bar is white when you go to your home screen. (or at least it does in my config ?) 

Has been good enough for AP ? 

[markclaire50]

3 minutes ago, Stu said:

Good then. I just found out how to do this on Android.

You are correct iPhones wont run two apps simultaneously so Synscan and Skysafari won't be friends currently.

Yes, I have to say that, when they are  behaving it is a pleasure to find things with a much bigger database on the SSPRO6. Sometimes I do get very irritated when the app lags or the scope carries on slewing after I take my finger off the direction button. When I upgrade to a synscan heq5, I probably won't use WiFi even though I have the dongle. I think the direct link with the handset will be more reliable. 

[Starlight 1]

Something in my head going back 2 years , some say green is better then red for night vision , I never seen a hand set that show green. 

[markclaire50]

7 minutes ago, AstroCiaran123 said:

Anyone know of an Android app that'll turn the screen red ?

 

Not me, but SSpro6 and synscan can be switched to nightmide. Or even mode. ?

[markclaire50]

1 hour ago, Stu said:

The Veil is one of those 'easy to find, needs the right conditions to see' objects. Plonk the scope on 52 Cygni (itself quite easy to find) and the Western Veil streams right through it, but if your skies aren't dark or transparent enough, you still won't see it.

Would u recommend a UHC or OIII filter? 

[Stu]

14 minutes ago, markclaire50 said:

Would u recommend a UHC or OIII filter? 

For the Veil I would go for an OIII, makes quite a dramatic difference. You still need good skies to see it at best, but I've glimpsed it from home with an OIII. It's a fabulous object under excellent skies, great at low power where you can take in the whole thing in a widefield scope, or up close in a big dob where you see the finer detail.

[markclaire50]

4 minutes ago, Stu said:

For the Veil I would go for an OIII, makes quite a dramatic difference. You still need good skies to see it at best, but I've glimpsed it from home with an OIII. It's a fabulous object under excellent skies, great at low power where you can take in the whole thing in a widefield scope, or up close in a big dob where you see the finer detail.

So perhaps 21x in my 80mmed, with a oiii. I've heard people say a UHC is good for orion nebula? 

[Telescope40]

5 hours ago, alanjgreen said:

My experience was similar. I remember giving up because I could not find anything with my tiny wobbly refractor as a kid.

It took one night for an “impulse purchase” Celestron Sky Prodigy 130mm to erase those bad memories forever.

- it aligned itself with an early inbuilt version of starsense

- you pick an object, wait a few seconds and there it was to see

- I had the kids and wife outside all looking at a never ending list of objects

Unfortunately, after 6 weeks I had seen everything the 130mm could show me and I had to upgrade to a CPC800!  

- I remember holding a star party for my daughter and her friends, we were all outside until the early hours cycling through endless objects from “turn left at Orion” as I read the text while they all looked through the eyepiece in turn (I really miss the CPC, it was a great scope)

I would advise all newbies to get GOTO and think that anyone advising folk to learn the skies and find stuff yourself are taking more people away from the hobby than they realise.

“seeing is believing “ and it you ain’t seeing anything then you soon stop believing...  

We live in the 21st century and while we all remember the “good old days”, time has moved on and so must we too (IMHO).

However, if you love crawling about on your hands and knees trying to find something in a finder then don’t let me stop you. It’s your back and neck after all.

Alan

Hello  all.  Fundamentally I would fall on the GoTo side of the fence about this topic and the OP's experience I can quite happily relate to. 

Alan's reply that I have quoted is also very apt from my point of view.  I've spent many a nite in the dim and distant !!!  Past - being outside not being able to locate a particular target.  New peeps to the hobby could lose interest. 

Goto for me helps me make full use of my telescope time given the number of sessions I seem to get these days - cloud cloud cloud !!!!!!  

I try these days at each session to set up a new target to find as well as looking at " old faithful targets". I'm not saying the Goto is foolproof but I'm happy to use any help I can get, so to speak.  I do know my way around the sky but I know that's only to a certain limit.  Tech is a plus for me !! 

Thanks for reading..  John

[John]

I've no problem with GOTO at all but I just don't choose to use it myself. I enjoy finding new targets and re-finding old ones. I also much prefer using setups without any technology, electric supplies, cables and so forth. Again nothing agaist this stuff but I prefer the simplest approach that I can get. Quick setup and tear down and reasonably portable - thats my ideal rig.

The only point I would make on GOTO for beginners is, if you are on a tight budget, the GOTO facility can eat up a lot of £'s leaving little for the optics that will actually deliver the views and it's the views that will keep you in the hobby I feel. I've seen some rather pathetic scopes sat on GOTO mounts that have the capability of pointing the scope at targets that will be more or less invisible through the limited optics !

On the Veil, I have seen it with an 80mm scope using a UHC filter but I'd much rather be using an O-III on that target even with the small aperture - the impact of the O-II filter on the Veil Nebula is much more significant than a UHC.

Ask this question again in a few years time and I reckon the vast majority will wonder why you are asking it - they will all be GOTO users

 

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, adyj1 said:

I've used an android app called Twilight,

Hey adyj1, had a wee look on google play and found 'color filter'. Seems do do the trick and doesn't need any weird permissions. 

[markclaire50]

44 minutes ago, John said:

I've no problem with GOTO at all but I just don't choose to use it myself. I enjoy finding new targets and re-finding old ones. I also much prefer using setups without any technology, electric supplies, cables and so forth. Again nothing agaist this stuff but I prefer the simplest approach that I can get. Quick setup and tear down and reasonably portable - thats my ideal rig.

The only point I would make on GOTO for beginners is, if you are on a tight budget, the GOTO facility can eat up a lot of £'s leaving little for the optics that will actually deliver the views and it's the views that will keep you in the hobby I feel. I've seen some rather pathetic scopes sat on GOTO mounts that have the capability of pointing the scope at targets that will be more or less invisible through the limited optics !

On the Veil, I have seen it with an 80mm scope using a UHC filter but I'd much rather be using an O-III on that target even with the small aperture - the impact of the O-II filter on the Veil Nebula is much more significant than a UHC.

Ask this question again in a few years time and I reckon the vast majority will wonder why you are asking it - they will all be GOTO users

 

Good point on the limited budget John. 

[adyj1]

1 hour ago, AstroCiaran123 said:

Hey adyj1, had a wee look on google play and found 'color filter'. Seems do do the trick and doesn't need any weird permissions. 

Unfortunately the menu bar on the home screen is still white, and if you drag down for your notifications, that is also white. It's probably not possible to colour these screens... 

Thanks for the suggestion, though - it was worth a try

[scarp15]

2 hours ago, vlaiv said:

I think Owl nebula is a myth

I've searched for it numerous times in dark skies without any luck - still have not seen it.

An OIII filter will dispel the myth.

[markclaire50]

11 minutes ago, scarp15 said:

An OIII filter will dispel the myth.

I've been thinking about getting a oiii or uhc. Which is the one you would pick as a first one?

[Guest]

28 minutes ago, adyj1 said:

Unfortunately the menu bar on the home screen is still white, and if you drag down for your notifications, that is also white. It's probably not possible to colour these screens... 

Thanks for the suggestion, though - it was worth a try

Just been reading up. Android apparently do not allow apps to overlay the notification bar, which is how this type of filter works.  I'm running Lineage OS 16 so gonna see if I can 'break' this restricion. In the mean time gonna dim my screen way down and try to avoid the bar.