Anyone using an OGEM mount??

[dahle]

This is the last new of Mark, JTW Astronomy (saturday 12):

We are sending OGEM number 1, the first prototype to E-Eye remote observatory in Spain for testing purposes and to allow people to try before they buy. 

Our commitment to you is the highest priority. The Early Bird mounts will ship before we start to work on the next batch of orders. The reason that this mount has not gone to a customer is because it is a prototype and has some minor issues that are not present on the mounts you will receive. These are mostly cosmetic due to the repeated assembly/disassembly and fitting. It will function identically, so we feel it should be put to good use.  

Maybe you saw this already, maybe not, but we want to clarify the situation to avoid any misunderstandings.

We've already started to received the first controller sets and everything is on schedule. 

Greetings
Mark

[Northernlight]

I like the way his email says everything is on schedule, i certainly gave me a chuckle.

 

[RayD]

This is great news for those that are waiting, and for the supplier.  However, as much as I welcome any new product to add to my options of choice, it would worry me that I would be paying £5k + for a product that they appear to be saying has never even been tested?

We used to deal with a supplier at work and they gained a reputation of their R&D department being whoever their last customer was.  I hope this isn't going to be one of those scenarios.

[Whirlwind]

10 hours ago, Northernlight said:

I like the way his email says everything is on schedule, i certainly gave me a chuckle.

 

It's a bit harsh to criticise this overall.  New projects always overrun unless a) you are very lucky, b) it is a very simple project, or c) you vastly over estimated the timeframe anyway (and you don't gain anything by doing this).  If you are an early adopter you have to be prepared for delays if you want the product you want.  It would be easy to ship out an unrefined project just to meet an (arbitrary) deadline.  It is better to make sure it is right and take a bit longer than the first units getting slammed online because they simply weren't ready.  

What they likely mean is that the current project plan is still on track since they last revised it. 

[Whirlwind]

2 hours ago, RayD said:

This is great news for those that are waiting, and for the supplier.  However, as much as I welcome any new product to add to my options of choice, it would worry me that I would be paying £5k + for a product that they appear to be saying has never even been tested?

They seem reasonably confident that people will be able to test it though.  I'm wondering whether this is a slightly off English sentence in that they mean it is there for users to test it to see how it operates (e.g. a demo) rather than we've never put it under skies yet.  Things like how long can they track for unguided; to see what it can achieve when you push it to its limits (what's the tracking accuracy when you put 110kg on it ).

[RayD]

27 minutes ago, Whirlwind said:

They seem reasonably confident that people will be able to test it though.  I'm wondering whether this is a slightly off English sentence in that they mean it is there for users to test it to see how it operates (e.g. a demo) rather than we've never put it under skies yet.  Things like how long can they track for unguided; to see what it can achieve when you push it to its limits (what's the tracking accuracy when you put 110kg on it ).

Yes, possibly.  Let's hope it performs as well at it looks 

[Northernlight]

Whirlwind, not wanting to sound harsh, but i dont recall seeing JTW proving any proof of performance, even from the prototype unit.  Are far as i am aware, they have not shared in information about testing thus far, e.g. no tracking, no pointing and no guiding perormance screen prints.

So as much as i hate to say it, i believe the mount to still be very much "Untested"

I think they are at the point where they have tested the mechanical side and made some changes, but not the electronics / control system. If think they are still trying to Resolve the FreeGo issues and only then once they get their hands on a reliable control system will they start to properly test the mount under thre stars and publish the realworld results.

If they had of already done this testing, i'm pretty sure they would have made a big point about sharing it and the reality of the situation is that they will get it the best they can before release, but early adopters will very much be the Beta Testers and they wont be the first to do this...........Anyone Remeber when ASA launched their mounts ?

 

 

[Zakalwe]

I think that JTW are walking a fine line, if not making an outright mistake. It rarely goes well to publish vapour-ware and then to release a beta test to the public. I'm minded of Lunt's situation when they were developing the Lunt 50mm solarscope. They delayed the launch date and said that they were having problems but were not prepared to release a less-than-optimal product. Yes, there were grumblings, but at that point no-one had shelled out hard cash. When the product launched it was a good 'un and universally regarded as a good product. Any misgivings were quickly forgotten.

Taking money off folk and then not delivering or releasing a sub-par product will inflict far more long-term brand damage (see Daystar and the Quark). JTW are making a bit of a mess of this...to be at this stage and be in the situation of having issues with the control platform is not good. 

[dahle]

It's true that this is one of the few mistakes Mark made.

To my knowledge, I have not seen a test report of the periodic error.

I'm sure he thought he did not have so many problems with the FreeGo2 controller. Yet tests had been done with the Goto (see some videos). I think the problem comes from absolute encoders.

[mihaighita]

I don't really understand why JTW choose to go with FreeGo2 instead of a more established SiTech, especially when they have experience using the SiTech on their other mounts.  The price difference is minor compared to the benefits.

I was thinking of buying one in the last part of 2018 to go side by side with my Mesu 200. A brief conversation with Mark from JTW over email revealed that they can shoehorn a Sitech 2 into the new mount at a "modest extra cost" (he did not say what amount is that modest extra cost and I did not pursue the conversation further because I am not into alpha testing a mount/controller combination). 

The necessary upgrade cost for people living in Europe (Stainless Steel drives) and the upgrade cost for the encoders is making the price a hard pill to swallow over the cost of the tested Mesu 200. Hopefully in a couple of years when the production is sorted and the mount is more thoroughly tested it will make it a powerful competitor on the market.

[dahle]

1 hour ago, mihaighita said:

The necessary upgrade cost for people living in Europe (Stainless Steel drives) and the upgrade cost for the encoders is making the price a hard pill to swallow over the cost of the tested Mesu 200

I do not agree with you: the Mesu 200 costs 4711 + 21% VAT = 5700 € without the counterweights The OGEM 3900 € + 600 € stainless steel wheels = 4500 € ((VAT included) and with 30KG counterweights ( and we know that the counterweights are not given !).

Even if Mark adapts the controller SiTech, the OGEM will always cost less than the MESU 200 !!

[Whirlwind]

On ‎13‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 12:52, Northernlight said:

Whirlwind, not wanting to sound harsh, but i dont recall seeing JTW proving any proof of performance, even from the prototype unit.  Are far as i am aware, they have not shared in information about testing thus far, e.g. no tracking, no pointing and no guiding perormance screen prints. 

So as much as i hate to say it, i believe the mount to still be very much "Untested"

I'm not going to disagree that it would be pleasant to see some performance figures from the mount.  On the other hand this is the EU and they do have to meet the specifications on the website else you can claim a refund.  On the other hand it is only the MESU that I can recall actually provided an example PE track of a mount.  Even other high tier companies tend not to do this for new mounts in sufficient detail and in numbers to make a fair comparison (it is easy to pick a good one and claim this is the same for all mounts).

[Whirlwind]

2 hours ago, mihaighita said:

I don't really understand why JTW choose to go with FreeGo2 instead of a more established SiTech, especially when they have experience using the SiTech on their other mounts.  The price difference is minor compared to the benefits.

It could be a number or reasons.  It could be that they are closer to FreeGo2 being in the EU compared to SiTech from the states or they have had problems with them in the past.  It could also be concern over the current state of the US vs world approach and concerns over tariffs on certain goods etc.

[dahle]

A question I ask myself: the Mesu 200 has stainless steel wheels as standard? On their website, this is not indicated.

[mihaighita]

3 minutes ago, Whirlwind said:

It could be a number or reasons.  It could be that they are closer to FreeGo2 being in the EU compared to SiTech from the states or they have had problems with them in the past.  It could also be concern over the current state of the US vs world approach and concerns over tariffs on certain goods etc.

In the long run, it might be good to have a clear distinction between their product and Mesu 200. But for right now the company is basically doing beta testing on their customers and this can come back to bite the sales. 
And regarding the price, you are forgetting that Mesu has high-resolution motor encoders, while OGEM is going to need an 800 Euro upgrade to the absolute encoders to match that bringing the price extremely close to the Mesu 200.
Time will tell if the mount is going to perform as good or better in comparison with Mesu 200... I hope it will do that since more competition will ultimately benefit the end-user. 

[RayD]

29 minutes ago, dahle said:

A question I ask myself: the Mesu 200 has stainless steel wheels as standard? On their website, this is not indicated.

Yes it does.  However, as I have noted before, this mount is fundamentally different from the Mesu 200, both in the way it works and the load it can carry, so it isn't really directly comparable.  I think it is only being compared directly to it because it looks like it.

[steppenwolf]

1 hour ago, RayD said:

I think it is only being compared directly to it because it looks like it.

+1

[Northernlight]

RayD,

Of the 2 different drive technologies used by the mesu & ogem, in an ideal world where both work to the best of their abilities, does one have any distinct advantage over the other ?

[dahle]

As long as the OGEM will not be tried it would be completely stupid at the moment to compare them on their performances and their faults.

The only comparison at present may be only on their resemblance and the price. Subsequently, it will be necessary to compare them side by side by doing the same tests to be objective.

[dahle]

11 hours ago, mihaighita said:

And regarding the price, you are forgetting that Mesu has high-resolution motor encoders, while OGEM is going to need an 800 Euro upgrade to the absolute encoders to match that bringing the price extremely close to the Mesu 200.

Can we compare high resolution motors with absolute encoders? I do not know and here I confess my ignorance. A small precision, the absolute encoders do not cost 800 € but 500 €

[RayD]

45 minutes ago, dahle said:

Can we compare high resolution motors with absolute encoders? I do not know and here I confess my ignorance. A small precision, the absolute encoders do not cost 800 € but 500 €

No you can't, they are different things.

[RayD]

7 hours ago, Northernlight said:

RayD,

Of the 2 different drive technologies used by the mesu & ogem, in an ideal world where both work to the best of their abilities, does one have any distinct advantage over the other ?

I would say yes.  A friction reduction drive is potentially better than a belt reduction drive, and direct drive better than both of these.

[Whirlwind]

11 hours ago, RayD said:

I would say yes.  A friction reduction drive is potentially better than a belt reduction drive, and direct drive better than both of these. 

I'm not an engineer.  Is there any empirical evidence for the benefit of one over another to confirm this statement?  What about gear systems as well.  With absolute encoders on the Astro-physics mounts there doesn't seem to be any problems?

[AKB]

1 minute ago, Whirlwind said:

With absolute encoders on the Astro-physics mounts there doesn't seem to be any problems?

Backlash?

[Whirlwind]

1 minute ago, AKB said:

Backlash?

I know this can be an issue with non-absolute encoders and the Mach1GTOs.  I have a Mach1GTO and have never seen any backlash issues though.