Working with 32 bit images

[Stub Mandrel]

A recent exchange has emphasised what a pain it is that I don't seem to be able to edit 32 bit images.

PS2 is non-starter, I can open DSS's autosave.tif but not eidit it, and don't seem to be able to save 32 bit tiff files that it will open (integer or floating point)

I can't get Paintshop Pro x9 (last year's version) to open autosave.tif or any 32 bit files either. Both 32 and 64 bit versions of PSP reprot DSS-saved files as being zero-bit depth.

Am I doing something wrong in Paintshop or DSS?

 

Please don't suggest GIMP - I've tried and I don't like - sorry!

[Thalestris24]

Hiya

You can change a 32 bit file to 16 bit in Photoshop using the image->mode setting. You can then edit the file as normal. I believe Pixinsight also handles 32 bit files. Also Startools though you have to save the 32 bit file as a 32 bit integer type. Personally, I just save my dss output file as 16 bit

hth

Louise

[alan potts]

As Louise states even the new PS can only handle 16 bit for any form of meaningful editing, it will let you see DSS files but that is really about as far as it goes, you can crop them but I have never managed to much else,I don't think you can.

[Oddsocks]

When you save the output file in DSS try saving as 32bit Rational rather than 32bit Integer and then try an import into Paintshop PRO, this may work though I am unable to test as I haven't a current version of Paintshop on my Mac or a saved DSS output file to test with.

If you don't mind the quirkiness of freeware application IRIS you can go quite a long way with your processing steps in that before final tweaking in Photoshop or Paintshop at lower bit depths. I do use IRIS on a virtual Windows OS running on my Mac from time to time but admit the mix of command line and conventional Windows 'click here' interaction can take some getting used to.

http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/iris-software.html

If you do try IRIS and use a DSLR you need to update the Libdcraw.dll to the last version released, the link is on the download page. If your DSLR is newer that the last dcraw release then you will need to convert your DSLR raws in the free Adobe DNG convertor since dcraw is no longer supported.

I use Photoshop CS6 on a Mac and that can not use many of the tools with 32bit images, I think the 32bit mode in PS is mainly used with 3d images. As Louise states above you import the 32bit image and then use the Image > Mode toolbar selection to change to 16bit, tweaking the HDR module settings to spread your useable data over the maximum number of bits available during the conversion process.

[Redscouse]

I know you said don't suggest Gimp, and I won't, at least for editing. 

I have issues opening the autosave file that DSS spits out with Photoshop. I get a 'cannot open file, not enough RAM' error as the file is 32bits. Here's what I do. I open the autosave file in Gimp (version 2.9) and change it to a 16bit file. Quit Gimp and open/edit the new 16bit autosave file in Photoshop. 

This is the only workaround I could find to open the autosave file. Previously I'd use 'save file' inside DSS or Xconvert afterwards to change the file to TIF before processing. 

[happy-kat]

I've been using Startools to open any tiff file I can't open elsewhere, or even DSS, and then use either to save me a new tiff file.

For processing I use the autosave fits file.

[wimvb]

1 hour ago, Thalestris24 said:

Pixinsight also handles 32 bit files.

Yes. 32 bit integer or floating point format. Also 64 bit both formats.

If you have 16 bit integer format from the camera, and save the stacked image in the same format, you're not taking benefit from the added bit depth you get with stacking. If you have 12 or 14 bit dslr images, you only gain bit depth up to 16 bit, if you save as 16 bit integer. Usually this is not a problem, but if you try to reveal very weak signal, having a higher bit depth or floating point accuracy should be an advantage.

[SilverAstro]

2 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Am I doing something wrong in Paintshop or DSS?

Have you seen this in the DSS FAQ,

 You must save the file in 32 bit (rational) TIFF file format to open them later in Photoshop.
Software like Pleiades’ PixInsight can open 32 bit (integer) TIFF files created by DeepSkyStacker.

So if Photoshop cannot open yours it may be a problem with your DSS.

I also was not going to suggest GIMP for editing ! Instead suggest GIMP for testing Gimp(portable)2.9.9 will open my 32bit (rational) TIFFs and the autosaves.  IrfanView does as well. At least it will give a pointer as to where your problem is ?

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

PS and PSP both refuse to recognise the 32-bit tiffs, as float or integer format :-(

Some people claim to be editing 32-bit DSS stacks in PS.

I do a simple stretch in DSS before saving as 16-bit because otherwise I suspect I am losing a lot of subtle detail/data. It also seems to make the final image smoother.

Even Irfan view can't cope. It takes a 32 bit tiff, it reads teh 32 bit file but converts it to a negative image with '8 unique colours'

[Stub Mandrel]

2 minutes ago, SilverAstro said:

You must save the file in 32 bit (rational) TIFF file format to open them later in Photoshop.
Software like Pleiades’ PixInsight can open 32 bit (integer) TIFF files created by DeepSkyStacker.

So if Photoshop cannot open yours it may be a problem with your DSS.

Perhaps  it is  nothing can open them properly - except Windows preview! :-(

[SilverAstro]

Just now, Stub Mandrel said:

Perhaps  it is  nothing can open them properly - except Windows preview! :-(

and Gi**    

 

[Stub Mandrel]

well I'll try gimp and see if it can do the first stage stretches.

 

[SilverAstro]

grab one of the portables but put it on your C somewhere, not usb2 drive ! slow !!

[SilverAstro]

23 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Even Irfan view can't cope. It takes a 32 bit tiff, it reads teh 32 bit file but converts it to a negative image with '8 unique colours'

Something gone awry then because my Irfan opens them, but in 24bit so not a lot of good and no good for editing !

handy for a quick look through a folder though.

[Stub Mandrel]

Well Gimp just give me a load of bad tag messages. I think my DSS is FUBAR...

 

P.S. aaargh taht awfuil open file dialogue. Why do image editors insist on using stupid obscure custom file opening dialogues....

[Stub Mandrel]

Reinstalled DSS.

Still no luck

 

[SilverAstro]

35 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Why do image editors insist on using stupid obscure custom file opening dialogues....

because it is ported to obscure 'doze from linux and that is how they do it over there !

>"Well Gimp just give me a load "

which version gimp ?

 

[Martin Meredith]

If (and it may be a big if) you are prepared to write a couple of lines of Python, you can read image files in many formats/bit depths using the scikit-image set of tools, and then go on to save them in your destination format. Sometimes this turns out to be simpler than using GUI-based tools....

Martin

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, SilverAstro said:

because it is ported to obscure 'doze from linux and that is how they do it over there !

>"Well Gimp just give me a load "

which version gimp ?

 

2.8 latest stable build.

[SilverAstro]

2 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

2.8 latest stable build.

Oh um,  2.8 only does 8bits/colour so I dont know what it would do with a 32TIFF !

2.9.x for 16bit/colour depth.  ( 2.9.9 is the latest experimental and works for me. )

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, SilverAstro said:

2.9.x for 16bit/colour depth.

I'm giving it a try, but its 32-bit  I'm looking for... actually it has let me get my claws into a 32 bit image.

Suspect I will use it as a pre-stretcher.

[SilverAstro]

11 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

 but its 32-bit  I'm looking for...

Yes, sorry, I did not express myself well ! I was too brief. What I meant was that to test the integrity of your 32TIFFs on my assurance that I am able to do it in a 2.9.9 version  you would want to do it in a similar fork of gimp. I have not tried to do it in a 2.8 version. the 2.9experimental is a lot different beast to the old 2.8

and the rest about 8 vs 16 was just by way of bonus if you came to love gimp afterall     I was also thinking that no astronomers wanted to use gimp 8bit/colour and have given gimp a lot of stick over the years cos it could not, till now.

 

[SilverAstro]

27 minutes ago, SilverAstro said:

the 2.9experimental (edit : will do 8,16 and 32bit) is a lot different beast to the old 2.8 (edit : which I think can only do 8bit so, it may not have a 32TIFF reader/handler ?? )

 

[Oddsocks]

7 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I can't get Paintshop Pro x9 (last year's version) to open autosave.tif or any 32 bit files either. Both 32 and 64 bit versions of PSP report DSS-saved files as being zero-bit depth.

Am I doing something wrong in Paintshop or DSS?

Neil.

Just had a play with a copy of Paintshop PRO 2018, Photoshop CS6, DSS 3.4.4 and some sample canon 450D raws that I found on the web.

I can confirm that you aren't doing anything wrong with Paintshop Pro 2018, it can't open 32bit tif images from DSS in any format, looks like it is 16bit only.

Photoshop CS6 which I use on a Mac will open any of the DSS 32bit output tif's, many of the basic tools do work, the advanced filters and actions do not unless you convert to 16 bit first. Thinking about it ,many of the Photoshop tools only give you the choice to make adjustments in 255 discrete steps anyway so not much point staying in 32bit mode.

IRIS wouldn't open and display 32bit DSS images successfully either but was happy with 16bit.

FITS liberator would open DSS 32bit output in FIT format and allow you convert and save in 16bit TIF mode after tweaking the histograms but it's not easy because FITS liberator doesn't save the 16bit colour images as embedded colour, you have to save each colour pane individually and the histogram tool only works on a single pane at time so impossible to colour balance before export unless I'm missing something.

Not very helpful I'm afraid but at least you know it's not you.

William.

[Stub Mandrel]

Thanks William and Silverastro.

I think the best solution for me (and perhaps anyone else ona budget) will be to open DSS files as 32 bit in gimp, stretch with levels and curves to maximise the dynamic range without losing fainter detail, then save as 16 bit and finish using PS (to benefit from the plugins and actions).

Paintshop Pro claims to have 16-bit filters so might be better than using PS CS2, but it 'forgets' my gradient exterminator key and doesn't have Noel's actions...