Portable 250mm Newt

[Tommohawk]

With planets being in short supply from the UK at the moment, I'm looking at transporting a scope on holiday somewhere down south. Maybe Morroco, the Gambia, something like that.

No way I'm going to get a conventional newt in a conventional case, so I'm looking at some kind of dismantleable (?) arrangement - truss, flextube, or something.  I'm pretty good on the DIY front but don't have a fully kitted workshop, so have to keep it simple and also light. And cash light too, not least because anything like this will be at risk of breakage/loss. So an SCT is out because of cost/risk.

Commercial truss newts are surprisingly heavy and also expensive. I'd like to fabricate may own but I dont think I have the kit/expertise. Flextubes are possible but only sold for Dobs I think. So I wondered about a convention newt, and just cut it in half, and use an external "sleeve" arrangement to re-attach the 2 halves. The sleeve would fit between the two OTA rings.

I want to keep is fairly short, because I'll be using a very small mount. So ideally an F4 250mm which I'll use with my Televue x5 powermate. (I'm looking to improve on my previous results with the 200P, so got to be larger aperture)

So, OTA cut in half giving 2 tubes of approx 500mm length, sleeve of approx 100mm, mirror cell removed and packed in foam/wood case, secondary removed and also packed in foam wood case. All of this contained in a large lightweight hold case.

Although this idea has been rattling around in my head for some time, the more i commit it to paper, the madder it seems.

So really what I'm saying is, can anyone see any merit in this, or suggest an alternative? One of the main problems is that pelican type cases are so heavy, by the time the OTA goes in the weight is excessive. And I don't think I could take the mirror through security as hand luggage because it could be weaponized.

Maybe a cheap/light/low risk Newt with a hand made case?

PS I have manflu so probably not thinking straight.

[Stargazer McCabe]

David Lukehurst made one once... Here's how he solved the task of an ultra portable 8"... He might know whether the customer did ever travel with it as he states in the "reason for the build"... 

http://www.dobsonians.co.uk/News Page.html

[Tommohawk]

Thanks that's very helpful!

I intend to use this for photography, and was hoping to keep with an EQ design so I could use it for DSOs also. That said, it will be primarily planetary so maybe a Dob is the way to go. His prices seem very fair, although £2k for a 12" is still a lot to entrust to the airline baggage handlers!

The other concern is that until now Ive controlled the mount with my laptop - and even then tracking can be a bit iffy at EFL of 5 meters. So hand guiding might be a big ask esp for longer videos.

Maybe he would do a custom truss OTA? I'll give that some thought, but any custom job is likely to be more pricey. Thats why I was hoping to adapt a commercially available scope.

[Tommohawk]

Another related question on this - how easy would it be to put a regular Newt on a dob mount? I've never owned a dob, so not sure how the OTA attaches. Any ideas anyone?

Also I've gone off the idea of splitting a Newt in half. I reckon a cheap F4 250mm would be 1m long approx so a hold-all with rigid sides would do it for transport - provided I can keep the bag weight down

 

[Helen]

34 minutes ago, Tommohawk said:

Another related question on this - how easy would it be to put a regular Newt on a dob mount? I've never owned a dob, so not sure how the OTA attaches. Any ideas anyone?

Also I've gone off the idea of splitting a Newt in half. I reckon a cheap F4 250mm would be 1m long approx so a hold-all with rigid sides would do it for transport - provided I can keep the bag weight down

 

You need the expertise of @Moonshane for this - he's done both!

But for transport and photography I'd have said a refractor, or an sct/Mak might be a better option as the mount could be much more manageable - or finding a holiday location with scopes already available!

Helen

[Moonshane]

I'd agree with keeping a 10" f4 OTA in one piece although they are not generally that cheap.

It's easy to mount one on a dob mount assuming basic woodworking skills

e.g. 

 

[Stu]

To be clear, am I correct in assuming you want to achieve best planetary imaging results from a scope that you can take to a southern location?

I tend to think, all things considered, that you will get much better results, with much less phaffing around with something like an 8" SCT. These are transportable on a plane I reckon, @Peter Drewhas taken one to Tenerife to keep there. I think it went in hold baggage, very carefully wrapped but it may be possible to get one in hand luggage, not sure.

With a Newt, I would probably suggest putting it on a dob mount and using an EQ platform for tracking whilst taking videos, that will be stable enough.

[Moonshane]

Sorry Stu

I hadn't really looked at the rest of the thread and responded to Helen's post referencing me. 

I totally agree that a SCT / Mak would be better in the circumstances you mention and a frac would be better generally for the wider field stuff. A large newt seems the worst option for travelling to image anything as the mount required would be the main problem.

As always there's never a one scope option to any astro problem / requirement.

[Tommohawk]

5 minutes ago, Helen said:

You need the expertise of @Moonshane for this - he's done both!

But for transport and photography I'd have said a refractor, or an sct/Mak might be a better option as the mount could be much more manageable - or finding a holiday location with scopes already available!

Helen

Hi Helen and thanks for your suggestions. I agree a frac is good for transport and I use this arrangement for DSOs - with a camera lens for the time being.

But for planets I need aperture and as much as possible, so a frac doesnt really do it. Until now I've got passable results with my 200mm newt, but ideally this would go to 250mm. So that's the problem I'm trying to crack.

The latest plan is to post a tripod and weights to a friends place in Spain, which seems doable, and then bring the mount head and Scope with me in the hold.

Key question is: can I get a cheapish 250mm newt in a case under 20Kg? F5's are available relatively cheaply, but F4 is shorter and lighter. 

Sums show a 10mm ply case 1m x 0.4 x 04 weighs 14kg before any padding or fixings, so its not looking good! 

Holiday location with scopes - yes, this is maybe the way to go. I've sort of got obsessed with the idea of using all my own kit, on the basis that if I'm going to use someone elses kit I might as well use their data - and just download Hubble images! Maybe i need to change my mind-set.

[Moonshane]

are you going to the same place regularly or different places each time?

if the former you could maybe get the tube over there and bring the mirrors back and forth in a case, mitigating possible theft. I think EQ is still best for high res planetary.

[Peter Drew]

As mentioned, I keep a C8 in Tenerife. The OTA I wrapped in a sleeping bag and placed it in a large soft holdall as hold luggage from Manchester. I made sure to catch it as it tumbled from the luggage schute on to the carousel at the destination . I can't overstate the improvement in telescope performance when used at a location better than the UK, I'm sure that my C8 is par for the course but in Tenerife it regularly provides better lunar and planetary images than the larger options I have in the UK.  

[Stu]

18 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

Sorry Stu

No apology needed Shane...  

I think my SCT suggestion is probably out because of the cost, despite being the most convenient.

I would think that an f4 OTA, particularly an Orion Optics one made from Ali and stripped of the mirror would not weight very much. Could be packaged perhaps fairly simply in an outer tube of some sort and would be under 20kg.

Mirror could go in hand luggage.

Why not just pack the lot in a large car and drive down? Great fun and much easier!

[Moonshane]

good point Stu - especially if the stuff is then staying at a mate's house.

[Tommohawk]

4 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

Sorry Stu

I hadn't really looked at the rest of the thread and responded to Helen's post referencing me. 

I totally agree that a SCT / Mak would be better in the circumstances you mention and a frac would be better generally for the wider field stuff. A large newt seems the worst option for travelling to image anything as the mount required would be the main problem.

As always there's never a one scope option to any astro problem / requirement.

Hi Moonshane, Yes maybe a homemade Dob is the way to go - not sure my woodworking skills match yours though! One concern for me is that I really struggled to keep subject centred with high mag planetary work, so not sure how a I'd fare with a manual mount of any sort. In any event, if going with a newt, I need to get the OTA in the hold, so thats the key question irrespective of if its a Dob or an EQ.

I'm thinking her purely about planetary, so a frac is out, and I really want to improve on my previous efforts, so more aperture would be good. I agree an 8" SCT would be quite a good option and could be transported OK, but would likely give no improvement on my previous stuff. In fact I found I got as good results with my 200mm Newt as I did with the C9.25 which I used for a while.

29 minutes ago, Stu said:

To be clear, am I correct in assuming you want to achieve best planetary imaging results from a scope that you can take to a southern location?

I tend to think, all things considered, that you will get much better results, with much less phaffing around with something like an 8" SCT. These are transportable on a plane I reckon, @Peter Drewhas taken one to Tenerife to keep there. I think it went in hold baggage, very carefully wrapped but it may be possible to get one in hand luggage, not sure.

With a Newt, I would probably suggest putting it on a dob mount and using an EQ platform for tracking whilst taking videos, that will be stable enough.

Stu - yes correct assumption. Agree with the 8" SCT, but again no improvement over my 200PDS. If using a Newt, I reckon I could go either Dob or EQ. But with DOB I'd probably need tracking - I wouldny worry about EQ platform though cos only for planetary so field rotation not an issue - maybe you were just thinking from a tracking point of view?

The advantage of EQ is I can stash a tripod and weights at a location I might visit several times per year so only need to transport mount head which is quite compact. Some question about whether could go in cabin bag though as could be considered potential offensive weapon.

Now I'm off on another train of thought! Maybe I could make a home made square section wooden framed newt, where the frame doubles as the shipping box?  I'm sure someone will shoot that one down pretty quick!

[Stu]

1 minute ago, Tommohawk said:

But with DOB I'd probably need tracking - I wouldny worry about EQ platform though cos only for planetary so field rotation not an issue - maybe you were just thinking from a tracking point of view?

Yes, just thinking about tracking. If you went the dob route then an EQ platform is probably the best and simplest way to track the planets. I've used them a fair amount and found them great for planetary observing with a dob.

[Tommohawk]

17 minutes ago, Moonshane said:

are you going to the same place regularly or different places each time?

if the former you could maybe get the tube over there and bring the mirrors back and forth in a case, mitigating possible theft. I think EQ is still best for high res planetary.

Well, not sure. Have the option of regular trips to Spain though. Leaving a tube there.... now thats agood idea  why didn't I think of that?  Definitely something to consider!

19 minutes ago, Peter Drew said:

As mentioned, I keep a C8 in Tenerife. The OTA I wrapped in a sleeping bag and placed it in a large soft holdall as hold luggage from Manchester. I made sure to catch it as it tumbled from the luggage schute on to the carousel at the destination . I can't overstate the improvement in telescope performance when used at a location better than the UK, I'm sure that my C8 is par for the course but in Tenerife it regularly provides better lunar and planetary images than the larger options I have in the UK.  

Interesting! Maybe I should gets medication for "aperture fever" and recalibrate a bit! 

 

13 minutes ago, Stu said:

No apology needed Shane...  

I think my SCT suggestion is probably out because of the cost, despite being the most convenient.

I would think that an f4 OTA, particularly an Orion Optics one made from Ali and stripped of the mirror would not weight very much. Could be packaged perhaps fairly simply in an outer tube of some sort and would be under 20kg.

Mirror could go in hand luggage.

Why not just pack the lot in a large car and drive down? Great fun and much easier!

Yes cost re the SCT is a problem, and the Newt size and weight is potentially doable. Re the mirror in hand luggage - I'm worried that someone in security might perceive 3-4kg lump of glass as potentially offensive -  this is quite a critical point. Getting the tube in the hold is easy if I can take the mirror in cabin bags. Anyone have any thoughts/experiences re this

Re Driving down - yes I considered this but having costed it its way more expensvce than flying. But I agree it would make a good touring holiday and would love to do this sometime. My wife and I keep saying we'd like to tour France and northern Spain so it could work well. That said, I normally try and keep Astro-stuff separate from holidays with my wife - too much risk of getting the balance of attention wrong!

Hey guys thanks for all this! All food for thought.

[Stu]

3 minutes ago, Tommohawk said:

Yes cost re the SCT is a problem, and the Newt size and weight is potentially doable. Re the mirror in hand luggage - I'm worried that someone in security might perceive 3-4kg lump of glass as potentially offensive -  this is quite a critical point. Getting the tube in the hold is easy if I can take the mirror in cabin bags. Anyone have any thoughts/experiences re this

I wouldn't think it would be an issue, but a check with the airline will tell you.

I'm fairly sure I've read on the forum of people taking mirrors on board flights but it would be good if someone could back this up with their own experience.

[Tommohawk]

Just now, Stu said:

I wouldn't think it would be an issue, but a check with the airline will tell you.

I'm fairly sure I've read on the forum of people taking mirrors on board flights buts it would be good if someone could back this up with their own experience.

Trouble is the airline arent responsible for security so I dont think it's their call. And the security advice varies wildly - I've seen all sort of conflicting information. What would be really helpfull is if the security people could offer a more definitive opinion, but it varies from country to country and also varies over time. To be fair I can see the security problem - maybe some kind of certification process would be helpful.

Re mirrors on flights - a 4" mirror doesnt look a whole lot different to a shaving mirror but a 10" F4 is 4.5 kg ish so a rather different thing!

[Stu]

3 minutes ago, Tommohawk said:

Re mirrors on flights - a 4" mirror doesnt look a whole lot different to a shaving mirror but a 10" F4 is 4.5 kg ish so a rather different thing!

Perhaps, but if you had it packaged properly with information about what it is, I don't see why it is likely to be rejected.

[Tommohawk]

1 minute ago, Stu said:

Perhaps, but if you had it packaged properly with information about what it is, I don't see why it is likely to be rejected.

Well I agree, but I'd have nightmares about having it rejected and chucking it in the recycling bin!

[paulastro]

22 hours ago, Stu said:

Perhaps, but if you had it packaged properly with information about what it is, I don't see why it is likely to be rejected.

Good idea from Stu, this worked well for me in 1996.  I was taking a C5+ to Tunisia to see Comet Hyakutake in March/April time of that year for closest approach.  The weather at this time in the UK was terrible for most people. 

Like Peter I had it in a holdall as hand luggage, and in my case wrapped in a large towel.  I was asked to open the holdall at customs entering Tunisia and my attempts to explain what it was were falling on deaf ears and it wasn't looking too good.  Luckily I had anticipated this and also packed in the bottom of the holdall the scopes instruction manual, a full colour ad in a copy of Sky @Telescope and a review I had printed off.  The day was saved, lot's of laughing (not on my part!) and back slapping and I was ushered though customs, phew!

I saw the comet every night I was there, absolutely stunning, and compared with Hale-Bopp it was a real Linford Christie at closest approach - sprinting across the N sky at approximately a degree per hour!!!  Celestial dynamics in real time, fabulous to observe.  On 27th March the comet was at m0.5 and it's tail was reported at being from between 45 and 70 degrees long - my estimate in the skies I had was about midway between these extremes.

Those were the days!!

[Tommohawk]

22 minutes ago, paulastro said:

Good idea from Stu, this worked well for me in 1996.  I was taking a C5+ to Tunisia to see Comet Hyakutake in March/April time of that year for closest approach.  The weather at this time in the UK was terrible for most people. 

Like Peter I had it in a holdall as hand luggage, and in my case wrapped in a large towel.  I was asked to open the holdall at customs entering Tunisia and my attempts to explain what it was were falling on deaf ears and it wasn't looking too good.  Luckily I had anticipated this and also packed in the bottom of the holdall the scopes instruction manual, a full colour ad in a copy of Sky @Telescope and a review I had printed off.  The day was saved, lot's of laughing (not on my part!) and back slapping and I was ushered though customs, phew!

I saw the comet every night I was there, absolutely stunning, and compared with Hale-Bopp it was a real Linford Christie at closest approach - sprinting across the N sky at approximately a degree per hour!!!  Celestial dynamics in real time, fabulous to observe.  On 27th March the comet was at m0.5 and it's tail was reported at being from between 45 and 70 degrees long - my estimate in the skies I had was about midway between these extremes.

Those were the days!!

Hi Paul - yes I think as you and Stu have said printing off some info and generally preparing a "Spiel" makes a lot of sense.

Packing a 10" Newt in the hold is doable I think and taking the mirror as hand luggage may be the way to go. I suppose my concern is that a 10" mirror is a heck of a lump and just the weight of the thing might be an issue. Maybe I'm worrying too  much!

Because most of my planetary photography for the next few years is likely be done from a single location in Spain, the latest thinking is to ship over the tube (without mirror as per Moonshane's suggestion) + a tripod and weights (acquired from another SGL member - thanks Barry!) and then carry the mirror + mount head + camera etc when I travel. The mirror could be securely packaged and put in hold luggage to save any concerns with security.

Of course it would be a shame to have a 10" mirror and not be able to use it in the UK, so would be great if I could find a way of getting a cheapish F4-5  250mm with 2 tubes. Also need to think if I'm going to transport the secondary and focuser or leave it out there. Need to do some sums - anyone have any ideas about the 2 tubes thing?

BTW Paul - sounds like you had a fabulous time of it with Hyakutake - very envious!

[laowhoo]

Mel Bartels comes to mind. Maybe some of the builds and ideas at his site will help?

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/FoldingScopes/FoldingTelescopes.html

Cheers

[Tommohawk]

21 hours ago, laowhoo said:

Mel Bartels comes to mind. Maybe some of the builds and ideas at his site will help?

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/FoldingScopes/FoldingTelescopes.html

Cheers

hi and thanks for that - some interesting designs there as you say.

I think my workshop kit and skills are simply not up to doing anything too elaborate though. I did like the idea of the wood construction where the timber OTA is the flight case and thats probably doable for me, but the weight of a sturdy case like that starts to get excessive for flight.

One point well made on that link is the ease of set -up, and I need to think about that. Right now I've concluded that since most of my travel will be to one location I'll try and get an F4 250mm OTA with spare tube, and mail the spare tube to my destination in Spain. then just carry out mirror. But of course I have to think if the tube is bare, I'll need to bring and collimate secondary and primary and refix and align focuser. Not ideal.

I've found a courier that will take a 120cm x 45xm x 45cm package up to 30kg to Spain for about £20, which seems pretty good. Oddly though a return is much more expensive so would probably leave the tube there for the forseeable and maybe do a road trip to collect it some time in the future.

[MarkRadice]

I have taken my 150mm Mak (and 60mm solar scope, eyepieces, ASI camera etc) to Cyprus and Spain as hand luggage while the mount goes in a suitcase in the hold.  6" is enough aperture to be useful but not too big for carry on - and not too expensive second hand.  I even managed to fit the volcano Olympus Mons into the little scope.