Jumpstarter or power supply?

[Northern Soul man]

Just been out and I think the Jumpstarters giving up the ghost - slews are sounding very slow and when I turned the Dew Heater up it slowed even more. Got it on charge - I usually use a motorcycle optimiser/charger/maintainer  - I'll charge overnight with the charger that came with the starter just to be sure.

My question is whether to go for another jumper or a dedicated power supply - I only use in the garden and looking for 6-8 amps , 3 amps max from the CPC 1100 mount and a 3-4  more for the dew heater on max - so have a couple of amps cushion.

So - I can leave the power supply inside the outhouse (unheated) - so cold on cold nights and just extend the cabling ( the cigarette lighter plug)because the dew heater sits on the fork arm - well tied to it - as the heater (Hitec astro 4 channel 4 port) has a power point to run the scope - so my question - I need a power supply with a cigar lighter socket - to use outdoors would it be safe in a plastic or wooden enclosure at the base of the scope - I think even the outdoor supplies are not to be used in wet conditions ( the Baader outdoor one has no cigar socket - so no good) - but would a 6 - 8 amp supply from FLO in a container (holes to vent) be safe whether plastic or wooden, used for a few hours under dewey conditions.

Do any of you use these supplies where I would want to use one (in the outhouse with a long cigar lead to base of the scope) or do I just play safe and go for the Jumpstarter (17aH) - this one has probably lasted the best part of 2 years - or would a dedicated power supply mentioned suit my needs better and would it be SAFE to use this way.

Thanks.

Paul.

[steppenwolf]

A dedicated PSU would be ideal but you do need to ensure that it is safely protected when outside. However, there is an alternative that would take away the uncertainty of safety - a large Leisure battery and a charger/conditioner. The advantage of this combination is that a leisure battery is designed for long, low current draw (as required for our purposes) whereas a jump starter is designed for short high current draw (to crank an engine) and has a capacity of up to 110Ah. The conditioner type charger carefully maintains the correct charge automatically giving the battery a longer service life.

[RayD]

100% agree with Steve's advice.  A cheap solution is something like the below link, which is a AGM sealed battery, but crucially is cyclic, so designed for deep discharge cycles unlike car batteries.

Deep Cycle AGM Battery

As also noted, the optimisers are very good, and the better ones also have a specific AGM setting which drops the float charge very low and cycles it on and off.

[Mered]

I just got the Nevada power supply from my wife for Christmas (though she was less pleased when I said how my imaging sessions could now in theory last all night ). I'd thought about a battery, but the advice I got was to go for a power supply, as I don't need portability, with having easily accessible outdoor sockets front and back. It's quite small and light, and as I only need it to power the mount and autoguider I have plenty of spare capacity. It's rated 6A continuous though, so you may be right at the limit on it. Plus once I'd added a decent charger and a box to keep it in, the price was going up quite a bit.

I haven't had chance to use it yet, other than to check it works. I haven't decided if I'm going to store it in a waterproof box or get a longer 12V cable, so can anyone recommend one or the other?

 

[RayD]

8 minutes ago, Mered said:

I just got the Nevada power supply from my wife for Christmas (though she was less pleased when I said how my imaging sessions could now in theory last all night ). I'd thought about a battery, but the advice I got was to go for a power supply, as I don't need portability, with having easily accessible outdoor sockets front and back. It's quite small and light, and as I only need it to power the mount and autoguider I have plenty of spare capacity. It's rated 6A continuous though, so you may be right at the limit on it. Plus once I'd added a decent charger and a box to keep it in, the price was going up quite a bit.

I haven't had chance to use it yet, other than to check it works. I haven't decided if I'm going to store it in a waterproof box or get a longer 12V cable, so can anyone recommend one or the other?

 

I have one of these also and they are pretty good.  6A is going to be fine for most set-ups, with only the bigger ones with multiple cameras, guiding, dew heaters, filter wheel etc. maybe needing a second one.

This is designed as an internal supply, and as it actually runs at 13.8v my advice is mount indoors with a 1.5mm cable running to the mount as voltage drop isn't going to be an issue at all.

[Jamie16v]

what about a 3s lipo battery? 

[RayD]

1 minute ago, Jamie16v said:

what about a 3s lipo battery? 

They're fine but won't last as long as a AGM battery.  They also tend to provide quite a flat supply to the point of just dropping off a cliff, so you get no or very little warning that they are going to "go flat".  This isn't really ideal as it can ruin an imaging session.

[Daz69]

I made my own power supply from a deep cycle 12v 9a battery like the type used in mobility scooters. I put 2 cigarette sockets on there and a red LED voltage display via a momentary push button. I use it for night fishing and emergencies in blackouts as we get a lot here. I have a 4 stage charger that we use for our caravan battery, and that is on charger 24hrs a day as the charger cycles through constantly keeping the battery in peak condition.

For star gazing, I made a red LED dimmable strip light which is remote dimmable via a fob. In the future, when my astronomy gets more advanced, this pack will run a cooling fan or heater easily.

[Jamie16v]

1 hour ago, RayD said:

They're fine but won't last as long as a AGM battery.  They also tend to provide quite a flat supply to the point of just dropping off a cliff, so you get no or very little warning that they are going to "go flat".  This isn't really ideal as it can ruin an imaging session.

you can get battery alarms for lipo`s for peanuts and there are some huge capacities available. i`m sure if one can keep my quadcopter in the air for 30+ mins then surely it would drive two slow motors for a long time?. something like a 10Ah?

[Waldemar]

Baader does not use cigar ligfhter sockets because they do not make a good connection, basically they really suck.

I cannot understand why so many people are still using them. They are meant to be used for cigar lighters not as a power connection. The positive connection tends to corrode and make bad contact.
Just use a real power connector or even banana plugs.
 For use around the house the cheapest and easiest way is to use a switched mode power supply (http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/PSU/psu30.php). They are available in many current rates and with watertight closed housings, but it is very easy to build them in a casing if they are of the open type. http://www.meanwell.com/productSeries.aspx#  
when the adjuster of the 12 Volts type is set on maximum, they provide 13 Volts and are peak protected, so no hazard for your equipment. I am using them for almost 10 years now, without any problem.
Lightweight, allways working and as much power as you want.

[RayD]

6 hours ago, Jamie16v said:

you can get battery alarms for lipo`s for peanuts and there are some huge capacities available. i`m sure if one can keep my quadcopter in the air for 30+ mins then surely it would drive two slow motors for a long time?. something like a 10Ah?

10AH isn't big by any means.  The OP was talking about 6-8A overall requirement for a whole imaging session, so it would last a little over an hour.

As I said LiPo is fine, and they do a great job in quad 'coptors as the polymer construction makes them very light, but for the equivalent AH to give the OP a good imaging session they are about 5 times the cost.

[RayD]

43 minutes ago, Waldemar said:

Baader does not use cigar ligfhter sockets because they do not make a good connection, basically they really suck.

I cannot understand why so many people are still using them. They are meant to be used for cigar lighters not as a power connection. The positive connection tends to corrode and make bad contact.
Just use a real power connector or even banana plugs.
 For use around the house the cheapest and easiest way is to use a switched mode power supply (http://www.learnabout-electronics.org/PSU/psu30.php). They are available in many current rates and with watertight closed housings, but it is very easy to build them in a casing if they are of the open type. http://www.meanwell.com/productSeries.aspx#  
when the adjuster of the 12 Volts type is set on maximum, they provide 13 Volts and are peak protected, so no hazard for your equipment. I am using them for almost 10 years now, without any problem.
Lightweight, allways working and as much power as you want.

Switch mode supplies are great if you need to save space as the method of operation means they can be made smaller which is why they are normally supplied with appliances needing a power supply.  However, the down side is for sensitive equipment such as CCD cameras and other AP stuff they can be noisy, so a linear regulated one is probably better suited.  The Nevada one from FLO is actually pretty good for the money and I would definitely recommend it.

Yes I understand what you are saying with the sockets.  I think the biggest complaint seems to be them falling out or easily being knocked out as they are not a very tight fit. There are some other decent plugs and sockets available such as the XLR type connectors, which are actually designed for audio applications but are fine at the low currents used in AP.

[Waldemar]

43 minutes ago, RayD said:

Switch mode supplies are great if you need to save space as the method of operation means they can be made smaller which is why they are normally supplied with appliances needing a power supply.  However, the down side is for sensitive equipment such as CCD cameras and other AP stuff they can be noisy, so a linear regulated one is probably better suited.  The Nevada one from FLO is actually pretty good for the money and I would definitely recommend it.

Yes I understand what you are saying with the sockets.  I think the biggest complaint seems to be them falling out or easily being knocked out as they are not a very tight fit. There are some other decent plugs and sockets available such as the XLR type connectors, which are actually designed for audio applications but are fine at the low currents used in AP.

I use three different switched mode power supplies:

1 for my mount only, 1 for the camera's and 1 for the other power consuming stuff like dew prevention, focusser and 12 V  usb hub. In that way I prevent fluctuations in voltage because of sudden power demands.

Personally I like to use RCA connectors. The Neutrik brand is absolutely top or Lumberg screw-on connectors

[BRUN]

would this be suitable ?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maypole-738-Light-Power-Compressor/dp/B004FVOGQO

seems a good price for the spec

[RayD]

12 minutes ago, BRUN said:

would this be suitable ?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maypole-738-Light-Power-Compressor/dp/B004FVOGQO

seems a good price for the spec

Yes it would of course.  In reality any 12v battery will work, but it just depends on what you expect from them long-term.  In general terms the starter type units use shallow cycle batteries, designed to provide very high current for very short periods.  By way of example, if your car does't start, look how quickly your battery goes flat; a couple of minutes tops.  Do this a few times and you can throw it away.

This type of unit will work fine, but as you will be cycling it, with regular use you shouldn't expect to get more than a couple of years' use.    I know some will argue that "I've had mine 20 years and it's still working", but that isn't the norm, and it flies in the face of how these batteries are designed to be used. On the other hand, a deep cycle battery like the one I've linked above is designed to drop to around 80% DoD (depth of discharge), so will take the cycling better, and will last much longer.

In any case no battery will last forever, so if you are a light user and are happy to change the unit when it dies, they are fine and will work in just the same way as any other type of battery.  Many have and do use them with good success, but the deep cycle batteries like the one in the link are far better for this type of application.

[BRUN]

I work in the motor trade and as such I can get any type of battery I want, at decent prices too, but these power packs just seem a lot more portable and less hassle than rigging up a leisure/marine battery

Maybe i could rig up some kind of carry case for a small leisure battery, probably be better in the long run

[RayD]

16 minutes ago, BRUN said:

Maybe i could rig up some kind of carry case for a small leisure battery, probably be better in the long run

Yes definitely.  The reason I showed the one I did is because it has carry handles and is sealed, so can take a bit of shifting around without too much problem.  You would only need a couple of ring lugs, fuse, short bit of cable and a small kit box with as many plugs as you like and you're good to go.  If you don't mind the cicar lighter sockets then you can get a pre-made one with ring lugs already fitted.

[Northern Soul man]

Hi Guys thanks very much for all the replies, Ive found a 22aH AGM lucas battery but the only drawback is no cary handles, Ive checked to see if my Datatool battery optimiser will charge/condition the battery but can't find any info - will this optimiser be ok to charge the AGM battery as I leave it connected all the time.

Thanks again Guys and regards. Paul.

[BRUN]

Im currently looking at golf caddy batteries, they seem perfect, small, light, deep cycle capability, sealed

22Ah would only be about £35

 

[Northern Soul man]

 Yes nice 1 I think I only need to draw about 5 aH for my mount and dew heater when on max ( 2 for the mount and the rest for the heater) so 22aH should be more than enough - just need advice on my charger/conditioner now.

Thanks again Guys and regards. Paul.

[newbie alert]

1 hour ago, BRUN said:

would this be suitable ?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Maypole-738-Light-Power-Compressor/dp/B004FVOGQO

seems a good price for the spec

Ive just got the same one from halfords for £40

[RayD]

1 hour ago, Northern Soul man said:

Hi Guys thanks very much for all the replies, Ive found a 22aH AGM lucas battery but the only drawback is no cary handles, Ive checked to see if my Datatool battery optimiser will charge/condition the battery but can't find any info - will this optimiser be ok to charge the AGM battery as I leave it connected all the time.

Thanks again Guys and regards. Paul.

Paul I think the slightly larger ones (34Ah) as in my link in post 3 have the handles, the smaller ones I don't think do, but you can get a second hand golf trolley bag off fleabay for a pretty good price (Battery Bag).

Most optimisers should be ok as the idea is that they have staged charging, which reduces to a float stage when they are fully charged so they don't keep charging at the absorb rate and burn up the plates.  You wouldn't need a 5A one for a 22Ah battery, 2A would be fine.

They are designed to be left plugged in permanently, but not whilst you're using the battery.  you will need to unplug it, use the battery, then plug back in.  Below is the one I use, but they're not cheap, but it has a specific AGM setting:

CTEK Optimiser

[Northern Soul man]

Ray - Thanks very much - no the 5aH I was referring to was how much current I need - I think only 1.5 amps for the mount and the rest for the dew heater - worst case with the dew heater on full power I would be looking at about 3 amps or so for the 11" dew shield/heater  - so around 5 amps in total - my battery chargers output is only around an amp or so - so ideal if you think it would be ok to use to charge and keep connected when not in use.

 

Thanks again Ray and regards to all for the help and advice.

Paul.

[Daz69]

I will only ever use a stage charger now rather than the cheapo types as these can seriously damage your battery. My caravan leisure battery is on charge permanently now using a 4 stage charger. I also use this charger to charge my portable power boxes. I think If I do come to use this power box for my astronomy then changing the power plugs from cigarette sockets to ring and screw posts would be the way to go.  

[Jamie16v]

5 hours ago, RayD said:

10AH isn't big by any means.  The OP was talking about 6-8A overall requirement for a whole imaging session, so it would last a little over an hour.

As I said LiPo is fine, and they do a great job in quad 'coptors as the polymer construction makes them very light, but for the equivalent AH to give the OP a good imaging session they are about 5 times the cost.

fair enough mate, it was only a thought! ATB