How to find Whirlpool and Pinwheel Galaxy?

[Future_AstrophysicsGirl17]

Hi everyone, I need a bit of help locating the Whirlpool Galaxy (M51) and Pinwheel Galaxy (M101) through my telescope...

I have a Zhumell Dobsonian z10 and it's a beautiful scope, I'm able to see most stars & planets well through it. But I seem to have trouble finding these 2 objects even if I know exactly where they are supposed to be. The biggest problem I have is the upside-down, flipped view through the lens because the z10 is a reflector. I always get confused and don't move the telescope in the correct directions. I was wondering if anyone had advice on how to do this right so I can practice more, and not waste my time going back and forth. I would also appreciate if anyone knew what stars to use as a guide.

Another strange issue I've noticed is when I use the Viewfinder on top of the telescope's tube, I center an object (let's say Saturn) between the cross, but it doesn't appear at all through the lens on the side and it actually takes quite some effort to locate what I need. Is this normal?

Thank you in advance 

     

[ronin]

Cannot help with the 2 galaxies but the finder needs to be aligned with the main scope.

During a pleasant day take scope out and locate in the main scope a distant object, couple of miles away, center it.

Then look through the finder and adjust the finder so the same thing is in the center.

Then go back and repeat in case the main scope has moved - very likely with all the playing around.

Use the longest focal length eyepiece you have.

When both are on the same thing they are aligned and what appears in the center of the finder should therefore appear in the main scope.

As to upside down, flipped and at some strange additional angle I am afraid that come with a reflector. :eek:

Eventually you will get the idea, or go mad trying. :grin:

[Davey-T]

You can use the Plough stars, use Alkaid and then go slowly down and you should come across  M51, just a fuzzy patch depending how good you skies are, use the same star and Mizar the next star along and scan up and right about the same distance and about half way to the right and find another fuzzy patch.

But first try to align your finder and main scope possibly in daylight at first to get them in the same ball park then on a bright star to get them both centred on the same spot.

Dave

[Charic]

As above, but if you find your finder-scope awkward to use, invest in a RACI ( Right Angle Correct Image )  or Telrad finder scope, but don't just give up on the basic finder, practice makes perfect.

[spaceman_spiff]

Hi there,

To locate M51 (Whirlpool Galaxy), start at Alkalid (the final star in the handle of the plough). You then need to move the scope south west roughly parallel and the same distance as the two stars that form the handle-side edge of the spoon of the plough. You should see M51 as a faint fuzzy patch, use averted vision to help locate it. 

Before doing this you do need to align the finder scope with the main scope. You should do this by day using a recognisable landmark such as a church spire, tree or tall building. I would first get the object into the centre of the main scope and then adjust the finder scope.

Hope this helps.

[acey]

M51 is the easier target, M101 is large with low surface brightness. M101 is an easier star-hop as it sits at the end of a distinctive chain of stars shown on any decent star chart. but you could be pointing right at it and not see anything. To see either at its best you should view when highest in the sky, i.e. lying due south. You can establish the timing with a planisphere. Spring is the most convenient time of year for viewing them to best advantage.

To align your finder use a stationary light source, e.g. a distant streetlight or Polaris. To get the correct orientation of your map, look at the path of stars as they drift across the field of view. This is the line of celestial East-West, with stars entering from the East and leaving at West. On your map, North will be at the top and West at the right. Turn your map so that West on the map matches West in your scope.

Whirlpool has been a standard nickname for M51 since the nineteenth century, when observers with the 72 inch Leviathan telescope first identified its spiral structure. The next spiral they identified was M99, which R.H. Allen nicknamed the Pinwheel. The nickname later got applied to M74, M33 and latterly M101. I'm a traditionalist, so for me the "real" Pinwheel is M99, and the others are upstart impostors

[Stu]

I wonder whether your problem is more related to the quality of your skies as much as anything else?

These two galaxies are low surface brightness and are easily washed out by light pollution. Getting to a dark site really helps, M51 is quite doable in binoculars if your skies are good enough.

M51 is relatively small and easily missed. It should look like two small fuzzy blobs, but under dark skies and a bit of aperture can show some lovely detail including the spiral arms and the bridge between the two.

M101 is larger, and just looks like an oval or round glow. Again, with dark skies it can show some nice detail.

All the comments above are useful in terms of aligning your finder and starting at Alkaid. Here are a few star maps which may help. M101 I usually find just by 'dead reckoning' relative to Alkaid and Mizar.

Here are a few star maps which may help.

This shows a 9x50 Finder fov, plus telrad circles.

If you get to HR5067 you've gone too far!

This is M101 relative to Alkaid and Mizar

EDIT This also shows the chain of stars mentioned by Acey.

Good luck

Stu

[spaceman_spiff]

M101 is defiantly a tough object to find. I questioned its existence until I moved into astrophotography!

[Stu]

M101 is defiantly a tough object to find. I questioned its existence until I moved into astrophotography!

It's lovely visually in a 16" or more from a dark site.

[spaceman_spiff]

It's lovely visually in a 16" or more from a dark site.

I bet it is!

[acey]

M101 is defiantly a tough object to find. I questioned its existence until I moved into astrophotography!

It was discovered by Messier's colleague Pierre Mechain in 1781. He used a 3-inch refractor. Sky darkness is everything.

[Future_AstrophysicsGirl17]

Thanks for all your extremely helpful replies!! I feel like a lightbulb just went off in my head   I am going to go out right now and fix my finder scope

Now let me address some specifics

I wonder whether your problem is more related to the quality of your skies as much as anything else?

These two galaxies are low surface brightness and are easily washed out by light pollution. Getting to a dark site really helps, M51 is quite doable in binoculars if your skies are good enough

Hi BigSumorian, my skies are pretty dark since I don't live near a city. Even my neighbors don't use many outside lights. But I do get what you mean, and I could probably find an even darker place near me if I searched for it.

[Future_AstrophysicsGirl17]

M51 is the easier target, M101 is large with low surface brightness. M101 is an easier star-hop as it sits at the end of a distinctive chain of stars shown on any decent star chart. but you could be pointing right at it and not see anything. To see either at its best you should view when highest in the sky, i.e. lying due south. You can establish the timing with a planisphere. Spring is the most convenient time of year for viewing them to best advantage.

To align your finder use a stationary light source, e.g. a distant streetlight or Polaris. To get the correct orientation of your map, look at the path of stars as they drift across the field of view. This is the line of celestial East-West, with stars entering from the East and leaving at West. On your map, North will be at the top and West at the right. Turn your map so that West on the map matches West in your scope.

Whirlpool has been a standard nickname for M51 since the nineteenth century, when observers with the 72 inch Leviathan telescope first identified its spiral structure. The next spiral they identified was M99, which R.H. Allen nicknamed the Pinwheel. The nickname later got applied to M74, M33 and latterly M101. I'm a traditionalist, so for me the "real" Pinwheel is M99, and the others are upstart impostors

Thanks for all this great information  

[laudropb]

Do you have a star atlas to plan your observation sessions? The Sky and Telescope pocket atlas is a very good one to start out with. Also the book Turn Left at Orion is a great resource to learn your way round the night sky.

[Stu]

Thanks for all your extremely helpful replies!! I feel like a lightbulb just went off in my head I am going to go out right now and fix my finder scope

Now let me address some specifics

Hi BigSumorian, my skies are pretty dark since I don't live near a city. Even my neighbors don't use many outside lights. But I do get what you mean, and I could probably find an even darker place near me if I searched for it.

Well the good thing is your skies sound pretty good which will help. Have a look at the dimmest star you can see in Ursa Minor on a good night and that will give an indication of the Naked Eye Limiting Magnitude (NELM) of your skies.

If you get your finder aligned properly then I'm sure you'll have more success. It is worth considering either a TelRad or a RACI finder as well though, these really help as the orientation is correct so positioning the scope is easier.

Finally, if you have some binoculars, it can be helpful to find the objects first in these so you get to understand the star patterns to look for in the finder.

[StargeezerTim]

Hi, On my 150pds with up to 8mm eyepiece, I cannot visually see either of these Galaxies. And I know I am in the right position because I try to observe immediately after imaging them. I think they are very faint, especially in light polluted areas. Might be different in dark skies. Tim

[Tinker1947]

It likely to have been mentioned but a Telrad and the free to download Terad maps use with Stellarium will sort out any DSO, take a night or 2's practice but once you get the hang of it, nothing can hid......

[Gazabone]

M101 is tough to view, I only ever really see a slight change against the background and with averted vision, can very faintly start to make out spiral arms. 101 is not an object that you slew to, look in the eyepiece and say, "wow, there it is".

M51 is a lot easier to see, they are like 2 large commas facing each other with the tails connecting each other.

Both are rewarding when you find them (M101 more so because you can say you've found it!)

Hope you get there soon.

[acey]

Opinions vary, personally I don't think any kind of finder is some sort of magic bullet, the only thing that matters is that it's properly aligned. I've managed for years with the supplied straight-through refractor finders on all the scopes I've owned. I've viewed M51 and M101 many times (I've seen their spiral arms, and have ticked off the various star-clouds and HII regions in M101 that have their own NGC designations). I would say that the only two absolutely crucial things are a map so you can find the right spot, and a sufficiently dark sky so you can see them when you get there. If the sky is too bright then no amount of aperture will do. If the sky is dark enough for the Milky Way to be naked-eye visible, and the objects are high enough in the sky, then binoculars will do. The mistake we often make in visual astronomy is to think it's all about equipment, when really it's about the quality of the sky and our own visual system. A telescope is just a device for bringing the two together.

[Future_AstrophysicsGirl17]

 If the sky is too bright then no amount of aperture will do. If the sky is dark enough for the Milky Way to be naked-eye visible, and the objects are high enough in the sky, then binoculars will do. The mistake we often make in visual astronomy is to think it's all about equipment, when really it's about the quality of the sky and our own visual system. A telescope is just a device for bringing the two together.

Very well said. Also I have found that the Moonlight messes me up sometimes, that's not a surprise to me. I should go live on a mountain...   

[Future_AstrophysicsGirl17]

So I tried last night, and after 30 minutes of angry grumbling I finally aligned my finder scope. I don't know how long it was that off-centered but I'm very happy I fixed it. I began looking for M51 first and used 30mm field of view lens to start with. I think I got to the general area but wasn't sure if I found it. I used averted vision to try & locate the fuzzy patch. Then I used a smaller field view, 20mm, and that brought out dimmer stars. Tonight if it's clear, I'm going to attempt using my 9mm or 4mm and see if that works.

Another one of my targets yesterday was the Ring Nebula in Lyra...Vega is my main guide star but I need to work more with that. I'm not sure what to expect seeing, probably a grayish fuzzy spot like the galaxies.    

[Davey-T]

Well done on aligning the finderscope

Too much magnification may make objects too dim to see, what sort of skies have you got ?

For Ring nebula you should easily spot something that looks like a smoke ring.

Have a look at Albiero while you're in the area.

Dave

[Stub Mandrel]

This is how I've found it for AP:

1 Turn map upside down!

From Mizar follow the four smaller bright stars in a line.

Move the cross-hairs of the finder to form an equilateral triangle with the third and fourth stars, then nudge across just a tiny bit further.

Still not got a good pic, but it's there:

[Mrbloke]

Ring nebula is nice and easy to find. It's also good viewing as it's pretty much directly overhead for us at the moment.

[Future_AstrophysicsGirl17]

Well done on aligning the finderscope

Too much magnification may make objects too dim to see, what sort of skies have you got ?

For Ring nebula you should easily spot something that looks like a smoke ring.

Have a look at Albiero while you're in the area.

Dave

Thank you Dave! I'm not clear whether my lens magnify much or not, they might. All I know is that they range in the size of viewing field. I have 4, 9, 20, and 30mm, plus a 2x and 3x Barlow Lens. I don't see much of a difference when looking but I will double-check.

I guess my skies are pretty dark, but sometimes the tall trees in my yard get in the way