Am I doing Jupiter Wrong?

[Mowbs]

Fellow Gazers,

I've had my 200p since the start of the year and I've been pointing it at Jupiter quite a lot. The best I've managed to observe is a disc with 2 dark bands. There's no way I could make out any further detail like the shadow of a moon or even the GRS, the bands are not particularly clear and I know my scope and EP's should be giving me more detail. I've been really impressed by my view of DSO's and other objects and I'm 100% sure that it's not an issue with my expectations.

I haven't tended to spend too long at one object, maybe 5 mins or so before I'm off to the next thing. I've also never tried to collimate the scope and 3rd thing I think could be my problem is poor seeing (I'd estimate I've had my scope out 10 times) so I would have thought I would have had some varying conditions in that time (is that assuming too much?)

I'd really appreciate some of your opinions about this because I'd like to understand what (if anything) I'm doing wrong before Saturn and Mars are at their best.

Thanks

[Astro Imp]

You need to observe Jupiter for longer than five or so minutes.

As you view the seeing comes and goes and you will get a few seconds of better conditions when everything looks a lot clearer.

Also be very careful with making sure your focus is spot on.

Don't try to view at too high a magnification, around 150x is fine on most nights.

Good luck.

BTW I view with your scope's little brother and easily see shadow transits, the GRS is a bit harder but observable.

[Mowbs]

Thanks Astro Imp, that really helps. I think I need to find myself a seat then. I've had my eye on an adjustable one for a while

[HumptyMoo]

I use the dob version of the 200p and I was able to see the shadow transit of both the moons last night. As Alan says it is worth spending a bit more than 5 minutes on an object if you want to get the detail as seeing will come in and out over that period.

Although at one point things went seriously out of focus, then crystal clear and back again....looked up and was looking through my neighbours heating vent

Also, since I collimated my scope I am pretty sure things are clearer, my cap dot was just outside of the primary's doughnut so not sure how much it would of affected it, maybe placebo viewing counts as well

[HumptyMoo]

Thanks Astro Imp, that really helps. I think I need to find myself a seat then. I've had my eye on an adjustable one for a while

Oh very much yes, get yourself properly comfortable if at all possible

[dick_dangerous]

The more often you look the more you see. Your brain needs to get used to looking at things in the telescope then it'll start to extrapolate the view and more detail pops out - it takes a surprising amount of practise! Last night I spent about 10 minutes at the eyepiece on Jupiter at x120 and x240. Best views were with the lower magnification and I could see the shadow of Io transiting the disk - first time I've picked up a shadow transit.

Good colliimation is undoubtedly rather important too though!

DD

[Astro Imp]

 I think I need to find myself a seat then. I've had my eye on an adjustable one for a while

You will be amazed how much difference a seat makes, you can get your head/eye in the right place relative to the eyepiece and keep it there much easier, instead of hovering around. Just sit comfy and relax.

Good luck.

[Mowbs]

OK, you've convinced me. It's ordered

http://i883.photobucket.com/albums/ac32/fenetictrading/Drive/NewPerchingStoolStudio.jpg

From eBay for £45 in case anyone else is interested. The same company also sell it on Amazon for £50. Just Google folding / perching stool

[ronin]

I don't think I ever spend 5 minutes on anything and certainly not anything that is as bright as Jupiter.

It's not as if you have to allow time for averted vision to kick in.

With a small 70mm refractor and not that much magnification, around 50x, I can generally see 2 distinct dark bands easily.

On a 200P at what I guess is 120x-150x then I would have expected the 2 dark bands close to the equator and the 2 dimmer ones above and below to have been easily observable immediatly.

At a recent public viewing people were seeng those 4 bands and no-one was at the eyepiece for more then 30-40 seconds.

[Mowbs]

Now you're back to making me think something's up with my set up / technique Ronin, I will research collmination and have a go at that but now I've ordered a seat I'm really looking forward to sitting at the EP for a while.

All opinions and advice are gratefully received though.

[John]

I find the more and longer I observe planets, the more detail I see and the easier the finer detail becomes to pick out. I don't use filter even with my 12" scope but allow my eye to adjust. I often spend an hour or two on a planet. I believe that your eye sort of "trains" itself to pick out the finer details and also the seeing conditions we often view under mean that the finest detail is usually fleeting anyway. If you observe for longer your eye catches more of these fleeting moments of great detail. If you only observe for a few minutes you may well never see what your scope can really do on such an object.

Weather you call the above a "technique" or not I don't know but it took me quite a few years to work out why I was not seeing the finer details that others were reporting with similar equipment and spending longer looking helped me take quite a few steps forward in observing  

[AndyWB]

On a 200P at what I guess is 120x-150x then I would have expected the 2 dark bands close to the equator and the 2 dimmer ones above and below to have been easily observable immediatly.

At a recent public viewing people were seeng those 4 bands and no-one was at the eyepiece for more then 30-40 seconds.

With my 250px that's the kind of view I get at x150 - but it does still depend on conditions. On a bad night, not a hope, and I've not had a really good night this year. Getting your focus right by focussing on the moons is a good tip.

[HumptyMoo]

Now you're back to making me think something's up with my set up / technique Ronin, I will research collmination and have a go at that but now I've ordered a seat I'm really looking forward to sitting at the EP for a while.

 

All opinions and advice are gratefully received though.

Definitely go through the collimation steps with regards to confirming whether it does need adjusting, I took quite a while to acclimatise myself with the daunting new skill before I turned a screw. You may just jump in duck to water style but I did not, It took me a lot of youtube vids and re-reads of astrobaby's collimation guide to understand fully what each step looked like bad and good and the order in which it should be tackled etc.

Ronin's opinion is valid, although a little subjective imo, If he doesn't mind me saying (here's hoping ), The seeing conditions factor enormously and what works for one person or 40 may not work with you. Also we know from our friends in the police department, what groups of people say they see and what they actually see are sometimes very different things, sometimes people will see things simply because someone said they should

Anyway, regardless of that, I would definitely start with collimation as that is a tangible place to start and is not based on opinion.

[WaveSoarer]

With my 200p I normally view Jupiter with a 5 mm EP (200x) and this yields quite a lot of detail. The GRS is very obvious as is the light coloured outline around it which seperates it from the main band it nestles in to. Details within the bands are also visible, especially larger features such as the light coloured wake just ehind the GRS. I find viewing through some high hazey cloud seems to improve the seeing and also calms down the general brightness. A moon filter can help with the glare and is a bit kinder on the eye. I was lucky that my scope was well colimated straight out of the box and I've only needed to tweak it occasionally, with the aid of a cheshire. It's well worth checking the collimation as it will ensure that your scope is giving its best performance. I find that the 5 mm EP is about as high in magnification as I can usefully go as the view just gets very fuzzy any higher than this.

[bingevader]

 but it does still depend on conditions. On a bad night, not a hope, and I've not had a really good night this year.

Ditto, if the seeing conditions are poor then you'll just see a fuzzy mess.

I've had some nights this year where no eyepiece has made a difference.

Finally tonight things were better, not brilliant, but much better with some detail and this is compared to last year where I was getting views similar to WaveSoarer's above.

You may just need to hang in there and wait for a good steady night.

Cheers

[Perseus_m45]

that 200p is a nice setup and should have no problems with Jupiter. Sounds to me like a collimation problem. Is there an astronomy club near you that someone could show you hands on how to do it the first time? 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      mike h

[RichM63]

After spending time on collimation I was out with the same scope and mount (sans SynScan) checking something else last night.

Here is the report I made for my future reference.

Object Jupiter @ 19.00 UT almost at Zenith. 10/03/2014

Dew/Humidity very high, local low fog over fields.

Reason, focusing issues.

EP 2" 32mm 70°, clear as crystal, all moons visible as pin point bright spots, central bands clear, polar regions easily defined, remained in view for minutes.

EP 1.25" 6mm 60°, focusing check, but resolved to amazingly sharp, great banding detail, transit easily observed, constant tweaking of RA screw required.

Moon proximity and brightness very apparent.

Ended with eye frying on the moon, barlowed the 6mm x2 just for the heck of it, terminator details simply stunning.

Session ended, focus problem + which T2 2" adapter for 2" EP resolved. (60mm for 200P, 50mm for 150P) and no T2 for 1.25" 6mm but pull EP back to lower stop position.

Large J&B to end.

I would bite the bullet and check your collimation, mine was miles out when I bought the scope S/H hence my initial headaches with the scope.

Stick at it, you'll get some great views.

Rich

[Teignstar]

Some very interesting comments and opinions.

I also have had issues seeing the aspects of Jupiter, through my 6SE scope. I have found at times that all I see is the two centre rings and the moons, indeed I marvel when folks comment on seeing shadows of the moons, etc.

One thing that seems to be problematical is the brightness of Jupiter and it seems to shimmer in my EP. Hence detail is to some degree obliterated.

Am I doing something wrong, or do I need filters to dim this effect?

 

Peter

[Langy]

I've read in here that you need to look at Jupiter for some time to allow the eye to settle and pick up the detail.

Also read that you do not need (may have shouldn't use) a filter.

However if you have some filters, especially a ND then why not just try it.

[AndyWB]

I found filters could help pick out detail, though yes, I suspect you don't need them - http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/206527-filter-advice-please/?p=2193061 

[jason.p]

While on the subject of Jupiter, how long does it take for the GRS to cross the face. I've got it down for 8.30 tonight. I presume that's when it first appears. I can't get out till after 9pm and am looking forward to having a go at it with my new 5mm BST.

(Apologies for hi-jacking the thread)

[martindale]

While on the subject of Jupiter, how long does it take for the GRS to cross the face. I've got it down for 8.30 tonight. I presume that's when it first appears. I can't get out till after 9pm and am looking forward to having a go at it with my new 5mm BST.

(Apologies for hi-jacking the thread)

Jason,

Check this out

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/planets/Transit_Times_of_Jupiters_Red_Spot.html

[Grotemobile]

Jason,

Check this out

 

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/observing/objects/planets/Transit_Times_of_Jupiters_Red_Spot.html

 

2219 tonight.So you should be

ok.

[Charic]

I've had problems with Jupiter. I blamed the weather, seeing conditions, scope, my old eyes, everything?   My last real look at Jupiter was with a 5mm BST and the lens only  from my 2x Barlow  giving me a 1.5x factor and a magnification if 360x and Jupiter was crystal clear. The shadow of the Moon Io (Eye-Oh)  was just a perfect spot, then a short while later, Io appeared (invisible to me over the face of Jupiter). The best views I've had. The scale was still quite small, that's down to the optics, but brilliant seeing conditions, nevertheless. Your time will come, be patient. Ive still never seen the great red spot (That's just down to timing)

Don't be afraid of collimating. That can also improve your final image. have fun.

[Mowbs]

(Apologies for hi-jacking the thread)

No problem at all, I've got my scope set up and tracking Jupiter just now so it's interesting for me too. I've noticed already tonight that sometimes it looks like detail on Jupiter is flashing on and off. There's obviously a lot of movement in the atmosphere but I'm going to get myself comfy and spend the night on it.