Disabled stargazer

[Neil Dunne-Mason]

Hi All

I have been interested in the night sky since those night time walks home from the pub with your mates and the discussion around "look up there, there must be millions of stars. Don't be stupid, do you know how many a million is, there are probably thousands." Thus ensued a debate around the night sky and an attempt to count them.

Decades on ( I am 56) and retired due to disabilities, I have "time" on my hands and eyes that want to have a good look around that sky that I looked up at many "moons" ago.

I have a couple of questions, 1. due to my osteo-arthritis in knees, lower back and neck it is rather painful to find a good position that will allow me a good window of time to look skywards.

                                              2. Taking into consideration the above, what do the seasoned and possibly fellow star gazers who have similar ailments as my self recommend as a good set up. I was thinking of a Revelation 8"  F/6 M-CRF Premium Dobsonion and a perching stool (which I already have) as my prefered option. As a secondary option, a 120 refracter with a 90 degree eye piece. and finally a reflector something like the Skywatcher Explorer 150p EQ3-2. 

I have a pair of Revelation 15x70  binoculars and a weedy tripod. I can manage the binoculars (freehand) for about 15 min when lent up against a wall, but am looking for a set up to overcome my disabilities.

Any advice, assistance or words of wisdom will be gratefully received and read with anticipation of a solution (or near as).

Neil

Nottingham

[emadmoussa]

Hi Neil and welcome to SGL.

I can't give certain advices on the right observation level of comfort if you have a disability, but I think general guidelines also apply and for you to tweak.

Perching stools are originally manufactured to alleviate the effort people with physical disability suffer..as you know of course. So this chair of yours might stay.

If heavy handling is a problem then I suggest to find the scope with the most portability ratio to power. The revelation 8", while a great reflector, weights around 9-10 Kg and f/5 is not very short. I think f/4 is about 70cm long though and 1 Kg lighter. If you find this awkward to move around then I really suggest something compact like a 8" Schmidt Cassegrain. Without going into details of refelctor vs Schmidt Cassegrain telescopes, I think the 8" will give you what you are after in terms of DSO and planetary observing. The 8" is more expensive than the Revelation 8", but a lot of these come up for sale on www.astrobuysell.com/uk.

Titling and crouching is a feature a reflector might be better at reducing. If you're thinking a long 150mm refractor, it'll be heavy and you'll have to almost go down on your knees to reach the eyepiece if the telescope is pointing at or near the zenith. Having said that, if you have a high mount and height adjustable chair that can be lowered to near-ground level, then it should be doable.

A 200p Dobsonian is another option. They tend to be portable with good comfort level while observing.

You'll need to weigh the pros and cons of each. In the end it's your decision. Good luck with whichever works for you.

Emad

[Peter Drew]

Hello Neil, welcome to the forum. Of the choices you list I would think that the Dobsonian would suit your needs best as the eyepiece position only changes in elevation, this can be matched by an adjustable chair. The other options involve more complex orientations. Good luck. 

[Bubbles82]

A nice Dobsonian would be my suggestion too, easy setup and as others have said can be used with an adjustable stool or chair and the short setup time is a real bonus with the rate the clouds can turn up

[AndyWB]

Like the above, I can't comment on the disability side - but I've had knee problems over the last year (I can't stand for a long time, and standing up is painful), so I've maybe got some useful observations:

I find sitting next to my dob on an adjustable stool very comfortable.

Rotating the scope does mean getting up, and moving the chair. I have started to work much more in a 'one piece of the sky at a time' kind of way. I don't like getting up too much.

I'd love a Right Angle Correct Image (RACI) finder. I have to stand up to look in the straight-through finder that came with my Dob, and that can hurt sometimes. One with a right angle would hopefully mean I could stay where I was.

[leelee970]

Another option is a bino/mirror mount which could be of some use.

http://www.craigcolvin.com/astronomy/BinocularMirror.html

http://www.swindonstargazers.com/noticeboard/noticeboard03.htm

Lee

[emadmoussa]

Another option is a bino/mirror mount which could be of some use.

http://www.craigcolvin.com/astronomy/BinocularMirror.html

http://www.swindonstargazers.com/noticeboard/noticeboard03.htm

Lee

humm...does that actually work?!! Interesting.

[leelee970]

Another option is a bino/mirror mount which could be of some use.

http://www.craigcolvin.com/astronomy/BinocularMirror.html

http://www.swindonstargazers.com/noticeboard/noticeboard03.htm

Lee

The mirror needs to be first surface and not your ordinary bathroom type.

[brantuk]

humm...does that actually work?!! Interesting.

They're an acquired taste - but yes they do work - surprisingly well actually. We have a member who's only instrument is one of those and he loves it. I had a good session with him and it's very effective and comfy to use once you know how to move it round the sky - but you just can't beat a telescope.

[rowan46]

and the other thing not yet mentioned is a p mount for your binoculars and of course welcome to sgl

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I would recommend an SCT on an alt-az mount, like the Celestron 8SE. This is a surprisingly lightweight package (the OTA weighs in at 4.7kg, which is the lightest OTA with 8" aperture by far), and the short tube means that the EP does not travel much at all. I advised LukeSkywatcher to get one of these (he is in a wheelchair) and he is very pleased with it. He can set it up without assistance, which would be much harder with an 8" dob. The option is of course much more expensive than a dob. If the 8SE is too expensive, check out the 6SE, or a Skymax 127 on an alt-az mount.

[GuillermoBarrancos]

I would recommend an SCT on an alt-az mount, like the Celestron 8SE. This is a surprisingly lightweight package (the OTA weighs in at 4.7kg, which is the lightest OTA with 8" aperture by far), and the short tube means that the EP does not travel much at all. I advised LukeSkywatcher to get one of these (he is in a wheelchair) and he is very pleased with it. He can set it up without assistance, which would be much harder with an 8" dob. The option is of course much more expensive than a dob. If the 8SE is too expensive, check out the 6SE, or a Skymax 127 on an alt-az mount.

This!  If you have bad knees and a problem in the lower back. Forget the dob! It will be too painful for you to move around. You would always need someone else to move it around for you.

While with a SCT you can carry the OTA and Mount seperately... making transporting much easier.

It would be great if you could tell us your Budget. Will be easier to advice a matching Scope to your knees this way.

A motorised Alt-Az Mount With GoTo also seems pretty much a mandatory for you to have, so you can focus on viewing through the eyepiece, instead of straining your neck a lot finding Objects in the sky.

[ollypenrice]

Perhaps Paul (Luke Skywatcher) will come in here because he's a wheelchair user and very experienced visual observer. He uses an 8 inch SCT, I believe.

This would have been my suggestion as well because the short tube length in Alt Az configuration means a very consistent eyepiece height and no convolutions. The Go To means less bending and twisting to find things as well, and the tracking makes for a relaxing session. 

The Dob has a lot going for it too, as others have said. Provided you are not near an airport and take care in using it, a green laser pointer can be a neck saver. You can buy brackets to hold them onto the scope so you just fire them for a second or two to get roughly in the right place before moving to the finder. However, what I do is keep it in my pocket (they don't like the cold) and fire it through the finderscope for an initial rough alignment. I have a mildly arthritic neck and enjoy not pulling it around so much using this method.

Olly

[ChrisLX200]

Agree with the choice of an SCT. You can mount the whole thing on wheels - a trolly arrangement - and wheel it out (provided you have a flat-ish entry to your storage area, like a garage). Then you wind down the screws to lift the trolley and it's then stable for you to do the polar alignment. You need a chair that offers access to the eyepiece position but once done it doesn't move very much from horizon to zenith so you can remain seated and just twist the star diagonal around to suit. It isn't a perfect arrangement but probably the best for a reasonable outlay. There are more complex/specialist designs such as the Springfield where the lightpath travels down the center of the mount's axies and using prisms or mirrors you end up with a totally fixed eyepiece position. These are rare to find on sale though, most bieng specially made.

ChrisH

[IanL]

Another thought might be to take a look in the Video Astronomy section:

http://stargazerslounge.com/forum/123-video-astronomy/

Might make life a lot easier as far less issues with contortions to get to the eyepiece for example.

[Charic]

Hi All

............I have a pair of Revelation 15x70  binoculars and a weedy tripod. I can manage the binoculars (freehand) for about 15 min when lent up against a wall, but am looking for a set up to overcome my disabilities.

Any advice.................

Neil Dunne-Mason.......Hi,Welcome to SGL.

For a much simpler solution to what you already have, I would suggest suspending your binoculars from a washing line or something similar overhead. (the line / hook can be permanently affixed  into position ). Set up a chair or recliner for the most comfortable position. Then hook the support system to the binoculars. A very short elastic or spring tensioner in the support system could hold the binoculars an inch or so above your head if you need to let go.

The big 8" Dobsonians are about 21Kg to lift around. EQ mounts take up more surface space in use,  having higher to reach eyepieces.

That said, there are Newtonian Dodsonians that are designed for table top use ( could be used indoors too, but try not to have any additional glazing to look through, keep a window open if you can afford to let the room freeze?) like the Heritage 130. And Bino-Mirror systems just seem pointless to me IMHO. 

You also mention a Refractors. That's a good idea,for the simple fact (for me anyway)  that its possible to poke it through the top of some Bivvy tents? This allows the use of potentially a portable tent/bivvy observatory, if the material is dark enough. It keeps you out of the wind/chill of the night, and more importantly, can easily get your eyes dark adapted,  sat comfortably inside of a tent. Flask in hand, biscuit in the other. Try that with a Dobsonian? It would clearly improve my my light pollution if I could hide away and just look through a scope at the sky.

[knobby]

Tell us a bit about where it might be stored, how it will get in and out of the house (steps / slopes etc) and you budget?<br />

if access is easy a 200 dob fitted with wheels and an old PC chair would be easy and comfortable...

[moffer]

Hello Neil,

I've got rheumatoid-arthritis in many joints - hands, feet, wrists and shoulders being the worst affected.    Thankfully I don't have it in my back, but just to round things off nicely...I also have osteo-arthritis in my neck.      I get good days and bad days, or should that be nights.    If I'm having a serious flare-up I just forget about observing altogether as it's just too disabling and painful. Other days I'll dose up with pain killers an hour or so before a session and even then it's can still be a bit of a struggle at times. Fortunately for me, my son is also interested in the night sky and we go out observing together, so he does most of the humping. That said, on a good days I can manage to carry the mount back and fro the car and probably the scope to, but my son doesn't risk me with that, understandably so. 

Can't  speak for other set ups but as far as observing with a 200p dob goes... as mentioned an adjustable seat is a must for me as is an RACI finder. We have a Rigel quickfinder to get us near the target - my son usually does this as the Rigel can be very uncomfortable for me to use at certain elevations - especially near the zenith.  Some people raise the height of the dob by placing the mount on a plastic water butt. Never tried it myself but it should lessen stooping and would mean more observing from a standing position, which may or may not suit you. I would probably give it a try if I was on my own. Probably stating the obvious here, but make sure you wrap up against the cold... I've got cold on one or two occasions and really stiffened up and had to call it a night.

Obviously the above is just my findings with my condition, your mileage may vary as they say. But hope I've given some insight on what's involved observing with a dob with arthritis. 

[LukeSkywatcher]

My first thought was a nice big DOB and an ironing chair. Why?............no bending of knees and the EP is in the right position so there would be not much bending of the neck. Then i thought about size and weight. This ruled out a DOB really. So then i thought about the SCT and how i use it. I have no neck or back pain, so using the SCT from my low seated position is fine.

For Neil, the SCT would be great as he can extend the legs higher then i do and still use his seat and the EP will be at as good a position as a DOB would be, and there would be little to no neck,knee bending involved as the EP changes position very little over the course of a session. Its also very lightweight and compact and very portable. 

If the 8SE is out of budget then the 6SE would be the next best choice. They are great scopes and very disabled user friendly.

So my vote goes to the 8SE or the 6SE.

Hope this helps. 

Paul

[Crebles]

Hi Neil. An 8" Dob with a right angled finder will be good if you can lug the thing to your observing spot. I've an 8" Skyliner Dob and its ok to lug as one thing - much easier if you take base first then scope second and reassemble on the site.

I find looking through the straight finderscope a pain, especially when pointing up towards zenith, so the right angled finder would be a boon.

As far as binocular observing, a parallelogram mount (aka "p-mount") and a reclining deck chair or garden lounger could be really good for you.

I'm a physio by trade so, as well as considerations about equipment, I urge to you think about ways to stay warm (essentially that means thermal undies and layers) and encourage you to take a break from observing every 15 mins to have a stretch and keep joints moving.

Let us know what you learn - i'd like to think there'll be others needing your learned advice one day - including me!

Welcome to The Lounge!

[Neil Dunne-Mason]

Hi all

The responses are much appreciated and thank you for all the comments.

I am looking to spend upto £500, hopefully this would cover a telescope extra eye pieces, filters and a red dot finder if one is not included with telescope and or a right angle correct image finder. I am leaning towards a Dobsonion 200p as a number of you with similar aches and pains are able to move and operate one and I think a SCT would be out of my reach. I like the idea of a Goto scope, possibly a Skywatcher Explorer130P-DS EQ3 PRO GOTO as this would alleviate the bending and strain placed on back and neck, a bit pricey, unless you know otherwise.. There will be times when I would like to search the sky manually, is this possible with a Goto system? If not a Goto system then possibly a 150p reflector with a red dot finder if one is not included with telescope and/or a right angle correct image finder or 200 or the 200p dobsonion as already mentioned.

The scope would be kept just inside the french windows so it will be easy to move outdoors.

Thank you

Neil

[LukeSkywatcher]

£500 is a healthy enough budget. It puts the 6-8SE SCT out of reach,unless you buy second-hand maybe. The 200mm DOB is a great scope,if you really can manage it. I dont know how chronic your pain/condition is. The best bet would be to visit an astro shop or club and see a 200mm DOB "in the flesh".

You can use a GoTo scope in manual mode to do your own searching. I do it all the time with my 8SE. I really only bought the scope for its large aperture and portability. The GoTo function is there if i ever want to use it.

You say you like the look of the Skywatcher Explorer130P-DS EQ3 PRO GOTO. One thing to be aware of is that it is on an EQ mount and depending on what you want to observe,when you want to observe it, is that the scope moves into some funny positions and the eyepiece level from which you look through varies greatly and there can be a lot of twisting of the spine,neck involved. 

I may be wrong (its been known to happen once),but that was MY experience with an EQ mount. They are also a lot heavier and clumsy to carry/set-up,due to counterweights etc.

Just my opinion. I'm not talking you out of it. If you really feel you can manage the 200mm DOB....................you really cant go wrong with it.

Paul.

[michael.h.f.wilkinson]

I agree with the comment of the gymnastics needed when using a Newtonian with an EQ mount. My SCT is fine on an EQ mount due to both the short tube length and easy rotation of the diagonal, but a Newtonian requires contortions. Right-angle correct-image (RACI) finders are also a must if you have to take care of your back. I equipped my SCT with a big RACI finder and never want to do without.

[Charic]

Could the finder  just be converted with a diagonal. I know the eyepiece unscrews! 

[knobby]

Could the finder just be converted with a diagonal. I know the eyepiece unscrews!

The diagonal would increase the distance of the ep back too far and not achieve focus ... Unless you hacksaw some of the tube off to compensate :-)