Best CCD setup to start with?

[kirkster501]

Just playing with ideas - my AP scopes are my venerable ED80 and my RC8 - not properly tested as yet due to incessant cloudiness we are all familiar with on these isles...

Leaving aside the OSC v filters malarkey for now.

Is the 314L a good choice do you think - a beginner with CCD? Or push the boat out a bit more and get a 383? Or another make entirely like a QHY8? I know Gina and Olly have used the 314L and I have not seen many bad things said about this camera. I want do pretty much a bit of everything DSO - from wide field nebulae to galaxy gtoups (eg, M81/M82, Leo Triplet etc) to individual galaxies that I'd use my RC8 for.

But I hear about the sensor being small on the 314 L and I'd lose out compared to what I have been doing with my modded 450? I also know that the noise is very much less compared to a DSLR and that will be very important for longer subs on the RC8.

On the mono / OSC debate. I just wonder in the UK whether or not mono is feasible due to our shocking weather of late. This entire winter "prime" season,I do not believe I would have had chance to image a single subject where I live had I needed to get all the colours and luminance data. Unless of course an automated R,G,B,L,R,G,B etc sequence can be automated so at least get something in the can? But them I here focus is gone when you move filters?

Going to take my time - months probably - and think about this carefully. My scopes are for keeps, I like them. I just want to move onto the next stage if I can and I know CCD is the vehicle for that.

Sorry for my waffling questions and appreciate your thoughts. £1600 buys a complete ATIK 314L setup from FLO with camera, wheel and filters. I will have that money in May due to a bonus I am expecting

Rgds, Steve

[swag72]

The 314L+ is a cracking little camera, I love mine. But, I began to crave a wider field of view and so I got a 460 as well. The 314 goes on for the smaller stuff and the 460 for the nebulas. If I had an RC8 the fov with the 314 on the smaller galaxies would be superb in my opinion. I spend many hours on CCDCalc looking at different camera and scope combos. Have you looked at that? It will give you a real feel for the fov you'll get with both scopes.

Mono superb, full stop. So much more versatile and sensitive. All boils down to your personal preference with field of views.

Meant to say as well that the capture software with the Atiks is excellent, really simple and easy to use, does just what it should do and with the minimum of fuss.

[PARTY MARTY]

To be honest with you! When I first started out CCD imaging, I went for QHY8L colour CCD which is much better CCD than 314L+, it's a 6 mega-pixel 28mm CCD chip, It's PEC cooling which can cool down to -35 below ampitent! And comes with all the drivers and software in a complete package of £899. My first CCD and definitely a keeper, I've compared to the ATIK they are good cameras but they are expensive, the Atik 383l comes no where near better performance than the QHY8L and that CCD is £1600 mark! Other's will disagree with my opinion, but they cannot argue that £899 is hard to beat!!

[Gina]

I echo what Sara said As you probably know, I have the Atik 314L+ with EFW2 Baader LRGB filter set and Astrodon Ha and OIII filters. The Astrodon filters are a definite luxury, bought because I'm very much into narrow band. The difference in going from modded and cooled DSLR (squeezing the very best out of an 1100D) is phenomenal in every aspect! The camera is probably ten times as sensitive, the noise is virtually non-existant to the extent that you don't need darks and the software does it all with no fuss and is so easy to use. Everything is so very much easier - I'm overwhelmed.

I expected to use the DSLR for adding colour to NB in tandem with the 314L+ (grabbing two lots of images at the same time) but TBH I can't see myself using the DSLR for imaging ever again - after the Atik system it's so much hassle. Focussing was always difficult with the lower sensitivity as was finding a faint DSO. With the Atik system you can increase the sensitivity by binning up to x8 - that's a sensitivity increase approaching 64 times. The Artemis software has a loop facility whereby it takes repeated exposures and displays the result on screen with a huge variety of viewing controls. You can change the gain, black level, zoom in up to 10 times etc. This permits very easy focussing just as if you had a very bright object like the moon with the Canon Utils Live View feature. Artemis Capture gives you live view with image integration and all the picture controls you could think of. To say I'm impressed is a huge understatement. I'm totally won over.

OK... having said all that... The image sensor is much smaller than the DSLR but big enough to give great images on a standard monitor of say 1650x1080 as long as you don't crop your image too much. Framing becomes more important so it's just as well framing is so much easier than with the DSLR. Personally I have got over the smaller field of view by using short focal length optics in the form of camera lenses. A 200mm f4 telephoto gives much the same FOV as a DSLR with ED80 (it's also faster). Going to shorter FL lenses gives you true wide field. Admittedly this has required some DIY to mount the camera, FW, lens combo onto the mount but guide scope rings will do it with very little effort.

The other point with lenses is focussing. The focus is very critical with these short focal lengths and some form of motorised focussing is needed. In this case I don't know of any off-the-shelf solutions and some DIY is required. My efforts in this are detailled in another thread :- http://stargazerslou...lled-focussing/

[swag72]

To be honest with you! When I first started out CCD imaging, I went for QHY8L colour CCD which is much better CCD than 314L+, it's a 6 mega-pixel 28mm CCD chip, It's PEC cooling which can cool down to -35 below ampitent! And comes with all the drivers and software in a complete package of £899. My first CCD and definitely a keeper, I've compared to the ATIK they are good cameras but they are expensive, the Atik 383l comes no where near better performance than the QHY8L and that CCD is £1600 mark! Other's will disagree with my opinion, but they cannot argue that £899 is hard to beat!!

I think that to say the QHY8 CCD is much better than the 314L+ CCD is rather like comparing apples and pears. For example, I wasn't talking about a 314L+ colour, but a mono. It's a very different beast. Can a QHY8 OSC do narrowband as effectively as a 314L+ mono? Is the QHY8 better because it has a 6 mega-pixel chip? Considering I often read that chip size is rather an irrelevancy in AP, that doesn't do it for me. I think that for the price a QHY8 has it's place, there's no disputing that at all. People use them to very good effect indeed ........... but better? I'd say different, not better!

[kirkster501]

Thank you guys for your replies! Gee whiz, complex or what? I think I need to have a serious think. I will have a play with the FoV calculators.

I don't doubt for a moment that mono is the *best* way to go. The only thing with mono that concerns me is its feasibility in the UK weather as is oft discussed! I just wonder if its possible to automate getting R,G,B,L and then repeating teh sequence n times (until bedtime or it clouds over) in an automated fashion without re-focusing between each colour?

Rgds, Steve

EDIT: I was looking at this:

http://www.firstlightoptics.com/atik-cameras/atik-314l-efw2-filter-wheel-baader-lrgb-filters-.html

I see four filters come with this. How does one apply LP filter to this setup? I have a IDAS 2" filter. Can that still be in front of the filter wheel etc etc?

[swag72]

You can get filters that are parfocal (Baader ones for example) and they are marketed as not needing to be refocused. In reality this is not the case, although the chances are that it's the scope that is more the reason for the lack of parfocality with the filters as I understand it!! I would always say that it's best practice to refocus between filters. With an electronic filter wheel and the Artemis software you can set it to capture any sequence. You could use an electronic focuser and some clever software so that the system will automatically focus between each filter change.

[PARTY MARTY]

Mono CCD are more sensitive than coloured CCD's, however opting for a Mono CCD is not always a good start imaging for the beginner, when especially you're dealing with filter wheels, As a beginner myself, I found that the coloured CCD's are easier to use and get images you want much faster and without the hassle! I personally I agree that mono is better option but not a wise choice for the beginner, He'll or she'll will have a lot of time trying to work out how to image then faff about sorting filters! However swag72 the QHY8L is a better CCD than the 314L+, and it does have bigger chip than the 314l+, and as you say it depends on which telescope you're using! I've found that the QHY8L is truly awesome with it's wide field view when coupled onto the Skywatcher F4 8" Quattro, being much wide field compared to dinky 314L+, I can get the entire M31 Andromenda Galaxy and it's companion in the QHY8L chip, I have image of it. The 314L+ will struggle to fit in it's tiny chip!

[PARTY MARTY]

This is my image of Andromenda Galaxy with the QHY8L and Skywatcher 8" F4 Quattro and this is not a mosic image, this is just a normal 1x1 bin image! Can the 314L+ match this?

[Freddie]

I think you've missed Sara's point a bit there Marty. As was said, definately not better but different.

[PARTY MARTY]

I guess you're a 314L+ owner as well Freddie?

[Gina]

I have found that the Skywatcher Evostar 80 ED and Baader LRGB filters are parfocal as near as I can determine and I'm quite fussy. So I was able to do an imaging run by very carefully focussing with the L filter then doing a sequence of LRGBLRGBLRGB unattended for a few hours. The luminence channel determines the sharpness of the final image and thr RGB channels can even be binned 2x2 without any loss of perceived detail. This procedure produces a good colour image in much less time than an OSC camera.

I know the mono v OSC debate will rage on. And I can see that OSC would be simpler for a beginner but the original post was not about that. For the beginner with very limited funds the cheapest option is a DSLR and there's still a lot to be said for getting used to AP wiith one before splashing out on a CCD. I think to upgrade to an OSC CCD would be more of a sideways step as the OSC CCD lacks many of the main advantages of the mono CCD for the slightly more advanced astrophotographer.

Incidentally, I aslso found the Astrodon 5nm Ha filter to be parfocal with the Baader LRGB which is a bonus I wasn't expecting.

[kirkster501]

How do you get a LP filter in front of the CCD please? Or am i thinking DSLR mindest?

[Freddie]

Yep, and with a 400mm FL scope you can fit just as much of M31 on the chip as with your cam. So it's not just all about the cam !

[swag72]

As Freddie said, I said that the QHY8 and the 314L+ is different, and I wouldn't say that one was better than the other - Different yes. Is the mono CCD route that difficult for a beginner? I think not. I have a OSC CCD and I can not process it for toffee. The bayer matrix and the removal of such in the stacking routine was difficult for me and processing this colour image was something akin to witchcraft. I certainly feel that a mono CCD is easier. I have used a DSLR, mono CCD and OSC CCD and without hesitation for me the mon was easier, by far. But that is just based on my experience.

Regarding the M31 image posted, I am definitely not getting into a slanging match of my camera is better than your camera - Can a 314L+ produce an image like that? Absolutely based on the information you have given, assuming of course that we accept that mosaics are allowed? Or were you talking quality of image or size of the chip?

I will bow out now, I'm really not into argumentative posts or "male appendadge" waving about who has a better camera.

[Gina]

This is my image of Andromenda Galaxy with the QHY8L and Skywatcher 8" F4 Quattro and this is not a mosic image, this is just a normal 1x1 bin image! Can the 314L+ match this?

You haven't got it all in You can't get it all in even with a DSLR and ED80 - it's huge. You need camera lenses to get that in eg. http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/174973-reprocess-of-m31-1100d-with-200mm-lens/

[PARTY MARTY]

Indeed the edges have been cut at the sides! But whole idea is to show how much can you get of M31 however it's a huge DSO, can the Atik 314L+ match this with the QHY8L with same focal length?? HHHmmm where's your images to prove this?

[PARTY MARTY]

As it seems! that's just asked my question!!! I would love to know why a QHY8L is different to a 314L+ and yet nobody as good answer to that as well?

[kirkster501]

Calm down, calm down...

... I don't get the bit about LP filters and the CCD and colour filters guys? How does that work and what component "holds" the LP filter please?

[PARTY MARTY]

:lol: :lol: :lol: Now that's a good move!!! Thanks Kirkster501!

[PARTY MARTY]

To be honest with you Kirkster501! I would ask the same question, that's why I opted for the coloured CCD QHY8L in the first place! Mono's are really good if you done some research on Mono's. For me I wanted some decent images and focus on less time with filters an wheels, plus you need to spend a quite of sum of money to invest in these filters and wheels, For the only filter I need to use to fit on my QHY8L is my trusty Astronomik CLS filter which helps DSO stand out better on the images from the light pollution! And all I do once my imaging rig is set polar aligned and guided, I just simply take as much light frames as possible. With mono you have to faff about on a few light frames, than change the filter wheel round and take another set light frames and so on and so on, For me I would like to be completely running and leave the image train well alone and spend more time observing the night sky than fiddling about with the image train, also for me as a beginner myself I would advise anyone who's first starting out in this imaging lark and opt for a coloured CCD as a first time buy alway's Seriously on I would imaging is a massive steep learning curve, and if anyone advises a beginner to a mono CCD might be a to much for a beginner to start out !

When my experience in CCD imaging gets better than I might consider a MONO CCD they do produce much better colour images, However I'll will get another QHY8L in mono with it's fantastic wide field CCD chip!

[RAC]

Im going to put a plug in here for the Atik 383l+mono. Its not much more money than a 314 and alot less than a 460ex.

It takes cracking shots. You can use 1.25in filters just with a filter wheel and no problem with a filter drawer.

[RAC]

Mart you will never be able to do really good simple mone narrow band shots with the colour sensor. This is very important for someone with a lp problem. Some people dont even bother about true colour when you've got a mono sensor. It lets you do things you just otherwise cant(do well).

For me a i still want my dslr for quick colour comet shots but the rest is all mono ccd. Being abile to make nice big ha widefields in little time makes it all worth wile.

[PARTY MARTY]

Thanks RAC!

There's some good advice here at least someone can explain and define this a bit more!

It all seem's clear that a mono ccd would be a good move when I'm more experienced, However the colour CCD will have to do now for time being! However I was really quite impressed achieving an image like this through my new 80mm F7 ED APO (Reduced down to F5.5 with a TS 0.7x Focal reducer and field flattener) and QHY8L CCD, And I managed a 1Hour 30mins exposures of various 10secs, 30 secs, 120 secs, 300 secs light frames, 15 darks and 15 bais frames, all stacked in Deepsky stacker and final processing with Paint shop PRO X5, to produce this stunning image of M42 Great Orion Nebula, and the Running man Nebula. The image was guided using a 9x50mm finder scope guider (QHY5v) and PHD Guiding software!

Again the QHY8L CCD providing that awesome wide field of view with it's big 28.5mm CCD chip! I wish I could image Andromenda Galaxy was high enough in the sky to enable me to image it and see how how the QHY8L performs!

Again there's a lot of members under estimate the performance of QHY8L, I know they are Chinese made CCD's but they are very good quality cameras and at a very good price and there's a lot of people say that the QHY8L used to have frosting problems on the chip, but this is been 4 years ago since they were first introduced, I've owned the QHY8L for a year now and I say that they don't frost anymore, that problem is now ironed out!!!

[Uranium235]

This is my image of Andromenda Galaxy with the QHY8L and Skywatcher 8" F4 Quattro and this is not a mosic image, this is just a normal 1x1 bin image! Can the 314L+ match this?

Youre getting too hooked-up on chip size and optics, its not all about chip size, you really need to look into the properties of the chips used. The sony 285 is incredibly sensitive in Ha, and has virtually no noise - so no messing about with darks. The only chip ive seen that I would want to replace it with is the ICX694 (used in Saras 460ex) as detailed in the following test data:

http://www.astrosurf...oise/result.htm

(look at the dark signal for the 285, its almost non-existant)

Also, an OSC camera would be more or less redundant under a full moon. But for those savvy folk with a mono camera, all they need to do is pop on a Ha filter and continue imaging unabated

Edit: Pssst... its also not good form to label your own images as stunning, its far wiser to stay humble and work at your art.