Which CCD ?

[gingergeek]

OK, so I currently have an ED80 with the SW focal reducer coupled with a Canon 1100 DSLR and I've decided it's about time I grew up and purchased a mono CCD. Having been to Astrofest deliberately to view the CCDs I think I have settled on Atik but the question that is haunting me is which one ?

I worry about the noise and and the mechanical shutter of the 383L and look favourably towards the 460ex but worry if the FOV is too restrictive (have used ccd calculator). The next issue would be the spacing arrangements for example of the 460 with the ED80 + FR + OAG of some sort with a filter wheel. Surprisingly I have not managed to find a imaging train arrangement that matches the above but I'm sure people have done it.

Arrrrghhhh ! Too many questions and of course keeping in mind I would like to attach this to a future scope (Tak or similar fast refractor) so the pixel size may have a part to play here.

GingerGeek

[emadmoussa]

I'm not sure...the major reason people adopt DSLRs, especially the 1100D, is to avoid CCD astro cams - either because of the high cost or dedicated function.

[gingergeek]

Emadmoussa, I used a DLSR because I had one to hand and did save on the initial cost when I first started. Another reason to go narrowband was to mitigate the effect of the obnoxious light pollution my local council seems to one to inflict on society especially the one at the directly at the bottom of my garden (Rant over).

From my reading doing HA CCD would also allow me to image moonlight nights.

[emadmoussa]

Emadmoussa, I used a DLSR because I had one to hand and did save on the initial cost when I first started. Another reason to go narrowband was to mitigate the effect of the obnoxious light pollution my local council seems to one to inflict on society especially the one at the directly at the bottom of my garden (Rant over).

From my reading doing HA CCD would also allow me to image moonlight nights.

I see. Makes sense. Have you tried to contact your Council so the can shield/mask the one at the bottom of your garden. I'm in the process now.

[gingergeek]

Yes, I have tried the council route, the shades are completely useless (much like the council) and make no improvement whatsoever If you have a decent shade fitted then let me know (send me a picture) with the lamp post serial number via pm please.

[emadmoussa]

Yes, I have tried the council route, the shades are completely useless (much like the council) and make no improvement whatsoever If you have a decent shade fitted then let me know (send me a picture) with the lamp post serial number via pm please.

They said they'll paint it. I'll let you know.

[swag72]

The move from a DSLR to a mono CCD is a very worthwhile exercise in my book. I initially went for a 314L+, a great little camera, requiring no darks at all and offering a nice fov with the smaller refractors. Then I decided that I wanted a wider fov, and so I got a slightly smaller scope ( I was previously using a 120ED) reduced it further and purchased an Atik 460EX. My refractor now gives me 352mm at f4.7 reduced - It's fantastic and with the 460EX on the back it gives me a very pleasing fov. Of course, I'd always want a little more, but compromises do have to be made.

The options for me with the wider field stuff was either a 460EX or a 4000. I eventually decided on the former due to much agonising and also the sensitivity of the 460 is better than the 4000 and I rather like a spot of NB.

The mono can be used on moon lit nights, but don't expect wonders. I am going to change my Ha filter to a 3nm and I never bother imaging OIII or SII in a full moon. I always thought that the NB stuff is for when the moon is out, but when I did some tests I was getting such a high background reading with the moon out that I decided I'd be better off spending a few nights either side of the full moon on the sofa. I am hoping that the 3nm Astrodon filter will allow me to still get some decent contrast on moonlit nights, certainly better than the 7nm.

[emadmoussa]

The move from a DSLR to a mono CCD is a very worthwhile exercise in my book. I initially went for a 314L+, a great little camera, requiring no darks at all and offering a nice fov with the smaller refractors. Then I decided that I wanted a wider fov, and so I got a slightly smaller scope ( I was previously using a 120ED) reduced it further and purchased an Atik 460EX. My refractor now gives me 352mm at f4.7 reduced - It's fantastic and with the 460EX on the back it gives me a very pleasing fov. Of course, I'd always want a little more, but compromises do have to be made.

The options for me with the wider field stuff was either a 460EX or a 4000. I eventually decided on the former due to much agonising and also the sensitivity of the 460 is better than the 4000 and I rather like a spot of NB.

The mono can be used on moon lit nights, but don't expect wonders. I am going to change my Ha filter to a 3nm and I never bother imaging OIII or SII in a full moon. I always thought that the NB stuff is for when the moon is out, but when I did some tests I was getting such a high background reading with the moon out that I decided I'd be better off spending a few nights either side of the full moon on the sofa. I am hoping that the 3nm Astrodon filter will allow me to still get some decent contrast on moonlit nights, certainly better than the 7nm.

beautiful photos you've got there on flickr.

[gingergeek]

Thanks Sara, I did follow your threads when you were looking at a CCD. I think the 460 might be best but I need to figure out my imaging train arrangement : ED80 scope->SW FR->OAG->Filter Wheel->Atik 460

I would like to keep the the FR attached as it speeds up the scope and improves the FOV. I'm FLO would love the sale (hint) but another thing to consider is the mix of different vendors filterwheel (?)/OAG (TS)/CCD (aAtik) and it's effect on spacing.

Love the pictures btw

[johnrt]

The 460 looks like a cracking camera (Sara is putting it through it's paces if you have a look at her flickr page in her sig) and certainly gives you more pixels to work with than the 314l+ (which is what I use). You can get around the smaller fov with a good reducer, but this can't be a whole other discussion in itself. The versatility of a mono camera is superior to a DSLR or OSC CCD and personally I haven't looked back since I made the switch from a DSLR to an Atik 314l+. A trade off in chip size you will just have to learn to expect. However from moving from a DSLR to mono CCD to you gain so much more than you lose.

I used to do a bit of imaging with the full moon out (narrowband) but like Sara I give it a miss now as it disappoints in comparison to what I know my set-up is capable of producing.

My personal recommendation would be to go with an Atik - simple easy to use software and reliable sensitive hardware, you will find they are a respected manufacturer for a reason! If I was buying one today I'd & could afford it I'd get the 460ex. Don't forget the cost of filters and wheel too, this will cost you another £500 on top of the camera cost!!

[Fordos Moon]

I need to latch on here as I have same set up and will be considering same step up myself when finances allow :-)

[johnrt]

Thanks Sara, I did follow your threads when you were looking at a CCD. I think the 460 might be best but I need to figure out my imaging train arrangement : ED80 scope->SW FR->OAG->Filter Wheel->Atik 460

I would like to keep the the FR attached as it speeds up the scope and improves the FOV. I'm FLO would love the sale (hint) but another thing to consider is the mix of different vendors filterwheel (?)/OAG (TS)/CCD (aAtik) and it's effect on spacing.

Love the pictures btw

You can buy T-spacers in various different sizes to get the correct space between the reducer and imaging chip. The exact spacing will depend on your reducer. The order you have above looks good to me.

[swag72]

When you are looking into spacing, I can not recommend highly enough getting a pair of digital callipers. You can get them off the bay and they really take the guess work out of measurements. it will make a very stressful time (my experience of spacing) slightly less so!!

[gingergeek]

I think my issue is not knowing from which point the spacing is calculated, from the end of the FR to the sensor on the CCD ? Currently my DLSR attachs direct with a EOS adapter to the FR. Of course I haven't even considered the size of the filter wheel (not all are equal) and if manual or usb controlled.

My head hurts, must stop banging it on the desk !

[RikM]

Spacing is normally from the lens to the chip. I got a little bag of these things for fine tuning http://www.firstlightoptics.com/adaptors/baader-t2-delrin-spacer-ring-set.html

[ollypenrice]

I'd go for the 460 every time. I'm not a fan of the 8300 chip unless it's located in the very expensive makes of camera like QSI or FLI. It's a slow chip in most applications. You may also pay more for the filters since only the cameras with built in filterwheels really get the 1.25 filters close enough. You can get away with them with the Atik but I think it's marginal with a lot of vignetting. Flats may cure it but you'll still have lower signal in the affected parts of the image.

CCD is, for my money, way ahead of DSLR especially if you want to shoot Ha.

Olly

[gingergeek]

Thanks Olly, I have done a lot of watching of related threads in the last few months and I thought I was a little closer to a desired solution based on the 460ex. So with Atik and the filter wheels I will get vignetting ? The all in one QSI (QSI 583ws) packaging looks interesting and I was considering it but it's based on the Kodak chip (higher noise) and the mechanical shutter plus it was only a 5 slot filter wheel so I would have to do some swapping.

I will consider my options a bit more I think.

GingergGeek

[ollypenrice]

No, with the 460 you won't get any vignetting but you would get some with the 8300. In my line of work I get to meet lots of imagers and levels of satisfaction with the 8300 chip are so-so except for those with the QSI and FLI.

Unfashionable it may be but I also rate the Atik 4000. It's quite expensive and does need darks but, boy, is it ever a good camera with a decent sized chip.

Olly

[gingergeek]

Thank you Olly, your experience in these matters is very much appreciated and that goes for the others that have participated.

I now just need to decide on which OAG for my new Lodestar (replace ST80) and which filter wheel (preferrable holds LRGB + some NB) then work out the spacing on my ED80 + FR.

GingerGeek

[swag72]

Filter wheel wise I've got a Trutek Superslim - It's about the slimmest width out there - I found you can always add space, but never take it away. It has an 8 slot carousel, so holds my LRGB filters as well as Ha, OIII and SII and still there's a space to fill. A good quality wheel all round with no light leekage.

[gingergeek]

Sara, thank you I did see that in your signature and TrueTek are only 12miles away from me. I was mulling over a manual or USB but given the outrageous cost of the non-manual it seems a moot point except with manual it will risk will be nudging the scope a little.

[ollypenrice]

If you want an electric wheel (it isn't necessary and is quite costly) the Atik can be controlled in the same software as the camera. That's the very friendly Artemis Capture.

Olly

[Starflyer]

Thank you Olly, your experience in these matters is very much appreciated and that goes for the others that have participated.

I now just need to decide on which OAG for my new Lodestar (replace ST80) and which filter wheel (preferrable holds LRGB + some NB) then work out the spacing on my ED80 + FR.

GingerGeek

I recently went through the same but with a 314L+, I decided on the Atik EFW2 / SX OAG. From what I read the EFW2 is the best filter wheel to buy but the Atik OAG is too long to allow the correct spacing. The Atik wheel and SX OAG aren't directly compatible but can be made to work and give the correct spacing, see my thread here, especially Steve's reply.

Cheers,

Ian

[gingergeek]

I did indeed see that previously but it wasn't clear how you made the SX OAG connect to the EFW2. What the distances were or how you achieved any distance short fall. So if from my SW focal reducer to the sensor should be 55mm (right ?) the SX OAG is 13mm, EFW2 is 22mm giving a distance of 35mm leaving me with 20mm (not including any filters).

Obviously I will need to include the connection from the filter wheel to the CCD where the sensor is roughly 13.5 mm within the casing ?

[Gina]

I have and recommend the Atik EFW2 filter wheel - very slim with 9 filter holes and runs directly off the Atik Artemis Capture software the camera uses making a very neat arrangement. It's beautifully made and a thoroughly sound engineering job. I'm delighted with mine