TAL 100RS or Evostar 120 ... that age-old discussion

[Mr Fiery Jack]

I would buy the TAL, a classic, simple as. That said if you can pick up a second hand ED100 I certainly would do so

[Raga]

There is one very simple very scientific very definite way to solve this issue....................

....................flip a coin.

Works with every choice in life I find.

Heck, if it had gone tails instead of heads, my wife would be my sister in law now.

[Marki]

This is quite an interesting question. In the interest of full disclosure, my name is Mark and I am a fractor-holic

I love the views through my TAL100rs - crisp and near perfect across the field. There is some CA, but at f10 it is limited and I don't really notice it anymore. The focal length will be reasonably forgiving of cheaper eyepieces too. The crayford focusser is excellent, and the tube will indeed last forever, as Qualia posted, and the whole thing feels nice and robust. The finderscope is very good, the supplied 25mm plossl is excellent for its type (the 6.3mm rather less so). The best views of the moon I have yet had have been through this scope.

On the other hand, the extra aperture of a 120mm will make a difference, but primarily on dsos, where the light grasp is more of a boon. My experience with my 125r is that the extra aperture does increase resolution, so that things like globular clusters really start to leap out more. There may also be a little to gain on planets in terms of better resolution, although I haven't noticed that as much.

John's suggestion of the ED100 is pretty good too. I have read a lot of good things about them, and at least one former and very keen TAL100rs owner on this forum really raves about the improvement he sees in the ED100 he now owns. The Lyra is also well regarded, and some members here think that the difference in price over the TAL is more than made up for by the build quality (and the optical quality too). I haven't had the opportunity to try either of these as yet.

It is a hard call - but for me the TAL100rs is an unbeatable achromatic refractor for its price. I've looked though an evostar 120 only once (and I admit this is maybe not nearly enough time to see what that scope can really do), but I think the TAL is a much better scope in terms of optical quality and the crispness of image it serves. You are never going to get Williams Optics build quality, but the TAL optics are first class and in a tube that is very forgiving of the odd bump (may be worth bearing in mind when introducing youngsters to using telescopes...?). It will be a perfect match with an EQ5 too,and whilst it can happliy take modification it also needs next nothing in the way of maintenance. For me, its a classic, and completely fits the mental image I've had since I was a kid of what a telescope should be! Knowing what I know now, it is the telescope I would have bought first. I don't think you would regret it once you got it out under the stars! You may well get a serious dose of aperture fever later, but I'd bet you'll fall in love with the TAL and end up keeping it anyway (I own a few larger and supposedly more capable scopes than my TAL100 now, but I'm not about to sell it!).

I started with a larger aperture scope (a 200mm SCT goto) but I rarely use it these days. I genuinely prefer the views through my 100mm or 125mm refractors, and the aperture of these is more than adequate for my current needs and observing habits. And I really seem to like how refractors look better than other scope types. Some of this is just a purely emotional response, but hey, so what . It suits me, and gets me out and looking up, and that's what counts.

In the end my advice is quite simple - go with your gut instinct, and whatever choice you make, I wish you clear skies so you can get out there and gaze in awe at the stars !

[Qualia]

Tony - what you have written above was exactly my sentiments when trying to decide on my first telescope and Mark as beautifully summed the solution. Sleep on the question for a couple of days and listen to what your heart tells you. I think whatever choice you make you will not be disappointed.

[TonyD]

Mark, thanks so much for your time to present your views on the TAL 100RS. Your contribution is invaluable.

Qualia, thank you for your continued interest and insights into my dilemmas and helping me through them

I think I have my heart set on a refractor for my first scope because there is so much I will learn and develop skills and understanding with a high-quality, low-maintenance, robust piece of equipment.

The TAL is really talking to me!

There is one further consideration due to the fact I am in Norway. Bear in mind, as I have said earlier, that anything available in Norway is going to automatically cost over twice as much as the same product in the UK (check out these prices!). Therefore, I will certainly source one from the UK.

On the other hand, because I will incur some extra (fixed) expenses in getting the scope here to my residence, the proportional cost of the Lyra over the TAL will go down - possibly making the "quality per cost" ratio less significant. Bear in mind, as I have said earlier, that anything available in Norway is going to automatically cost over twice as much as the same product in the UK.

The cost of the Lyra Optics scope is about £120 more than the TAL, but there seems to be general consensus that it is better, although quality per cost, the TAL is still a better deal.

The Lyra Optics 4" scope comes in at £380, but to that I need a few more things that come as standard in a TAL or Evostar package.

The Lyra 4" has the Vixen Style dovetail, but I'd need a mount (probably EQ5 or CG5) - what would be the best option for getting the mount as a separate item? I guess I could consider a used mount system.

I'll need an EP or two too.

Lyra Optics will check anything that is delivered from them meticulously so I do not have to worry about major or minor quality control issues with the scope - can any suppliers of TAL promise the same, I wonder. This is dead important, because I would hate the stress and disappointment of getting the equipment back to Norway and finding that there are things that need adjusting that could have been caught and dealt with by experts at the point of departure. Of course, the logistics of safely transporting the gear back to Norway is another issue, but that is something that I have managed in the past with other delicate items - for example, fragile cuckoo clocks* from the States - ( boxes inside other boxes with bubble wrap in between - minimising the effects of the most violent jolts that can occur during transport. [Mark, I have read with concern your experiences getting the TAL 125 from Italy...]

Any other essentials I'd need to put in the shopping list?

So, if I were to go for the Lyra 4", what would you suggest I do to source the rest of the equipment for as reasonable price as possible?

And, one other question, is the Lyra as robust as the TAL (or, at the very least, is it robust enough to be considered robust - or is it a more delicate instrument that could suffer from the odd knock?)

- Tony

* An interest in astronomy, clocks and autochanger record players. Coincidence? Clockwork things and things that go round ...

[TonyD]

I've noticed I've repeated myself a bit while musing and constructing my above post. I can't see how to edit the post, so I apologise for it being a bit sloppy. Any ideas how to edit? I checked the Help at the foot of the page, but nothing jumps out at me (knowing my luck it is staring at me in the face! )

-Tony

[Marki]

Hi Tony

I think editing is time limited, but also only availble once you have a certain number of posts.

[TonyD]

I think editing is time limited, but also only availble once you have a certain number of posts.

Thanks Mark, I kind of figured that... the editing option was not available at all and I am used to it being there on other message boards I have used in the past.

- Tony

[John]

Sounds like you have settled on either the TAL 100 or the Lyra 102mm F/11. Both great choices but I'd certainly want assurance that the TAL has been thoroughly optically checked and cleaned by the dealer BEFORE shipping to yourself.

With regard to your question regarding accessories I'd be definitely looking for used ones as your money goes so much further. I've bought all my gear used (scopes and eyepieces) and saved massively that way - I'd never be able to afford even half as much kit as I have otherwise !

[Marki]

Arghh...pressed "post" too soon.

I am told the CG5 mount is excellent, largely due to its 2" steel tripod legs. I use an eq5 and that has 1.75" diameter legs and I find theTAL100rs is perfectly fine with this - I'd assume the Lyra would be ok too, I think it is longer than the 100rs though?

As for transport - as you already know it is better to pay more for a quality delivery service (pref by air, and with insurance). I've not heard of the TAL100rs's being affected during transport, but they are very robust. As for my TAL125r, pretty sure that was down to transport (and in no way reflects on Giuliano at Tecnosky) - I should have paid for a better delivery service option, rather than the cheaper entirely by road service I went for. As I have not handled a Lyra I can't comment on their robustness, but I'd magine they're pretty good - everyone comments on their great build quality.

You may find good deals on TAL100rs with eq5s/cg-5s from a number of retailers (not sure if our sponsor still does this?), like Green Witch maybe? I'm sure you could negotiate an appropriate delivery arrangement. Similarly, I'm sure Glen at Lyra would be able to put a good deal including transport together - not sure he'd be able to source a mount though? I understand he's very helpful and approachable, so maybe drop him an email?

AS for extras...I'm not sure if the Lyra comes with a diagonal, you want want to check. If not, put money aside and I recommend a dialetric Williams Optics (2" maybe, depending on what the Lyra takes). You'll need a finderscope - I think the Lyra does come with the scope rings/foot, but not the finderscope. I'd recommend a reasonable size (min 6x30) and maybe a Right Angled Correct Imagae one for comfort.

Note that the TAL should come with a perfectly acceptable (and independantly collimateable) 1.25" diagonal, and good finderscope and 2 plossls (25mm and 6.3mm).

As for eyepieces...whole new can of worms! Orthoscopics are great for planets, but it is nice to have something with a wider field too. At the moment I mostly use 5mm and 7mm Baader orthoscopics - if you can get the new Classics they're good at around £50-60.Glen at Lyra does sell some Circle t orthos for around £50 - well worth it. For wider field I used a 20mm GSO and a 30mm erffle type from Teleskop Service. If you want one general purpose (albeit a little expensive) eyepiece I'd heartily recommend the Baader Hyperion 8-24mm zoom mk III - but you get a lot for your money. You might also want to consider a barlow - the TAL x2 is excellent for around £50 if you can get hold of one.

Good places to look for secondhand are Astrobuysell and the classifieds on this site (not sure if you can access those yet? depends on number of posts I think) - most astronomers are pretty careful with their kit and pretty honest in how they describe and sell. Some peple are happy to buy via online auction sites - you may have your own views on that!

Hope thats helpful - once the spend on accessories starts, its hard to stop....

[Qualia]

Tony, my heart too was set on getting a frac as my first telescope and I have never regretted the decision. For next year I want just a little more aperture, but I'll never give up on the Tal. In the end a dob and frac end up complementing each other.

By way of idea, I bought my Tal and CG-5 (an EQ5 by Celestron) from Valkanik in Spain and have had regular dealings with the family run business. Indeed, they also serviced me with a number of my X-Cels and some of the Baader gear. I have never had any problems with Valkanik but I get the feeling José and his wife would be on the case if there were. They will check everything over before sending it and I think you'll be able to come to some agreement on postage costs.

Buying from the UK, if you were going for the Tal, then First Light Optics should be your first and last stop. What I have judged from being at SGL is that F.L.O is considered the best retailer of astro gear in the UK and again, I imagine they will make sure everything is perfect before sending it out. Steve - the owner - is a regular poster here, and from dealings with the chap, he is an absolute gentleman.

If you were buying from Germany, then AstroShop is a good bet. I have never brought an OTA from them, but I have dealt with them and their quality of service and attention to detail is again, top notch.

As we've seen in the thread, Foundaplanet is buying a Lyra 4", so he might be worth giving a shout just to hear his opinions on the service and attention to the client etc. For a difference of £120 (the price of a new mid-range EP), this certainly sounds a very interesting deal and with the EQ5 from FLO, you'll be up and running.

Regarding EPs. The forgiving f/10 and f/11 will mean that you won't have to fork out loads of money for some cracking views. For a new EP under €100, Celestron X-Cels come highly recommended as do BSTs in the UK (and are about half the price), Baader Genuine Orhtos and Televue plossls. Again, I'd set up a new thread on that one!

With over some 300 Tal 100rs hours of use, although all my EPs get a showing each week, when I look through my sketch book, I find that I have used the 25mm, 18mm and 7mm the most.

P.S: Tony, I wrote to another member yesterday with a personal comparison between my AZ 4 and CG 5, so if you thought it useful I could cut and paste it and post it up here.

[TonyD]

Thanks again Mark - very enlightening. Good tips on where to look!

My plan is to go out and purchase the telescope from the UK - whether it is picked up directly from the supplier or sent to family in the UK for me to collect would have to be decided as things unfold. I'd return with the item with me by air. There are lots of options for transporting special and delicate equipment (such as musical instruments and sports equipment), so I think that would be fine.

It seems I cannot access the classified on this site yet. I'm not sure what the deal is accessing buy and selling items on SGL so I'd better investigate!

Been on AstrobuysellJust found a "well used EQ5 Mount and tripod (Maxvision version)" for £70. It's got an illuminated polarscope and one counterweight. Does anyone know anything about the Maxvision tripod? £380 + £70 takes me to the price of a TAL or Evostar 120 with EQ5 and tripod package. Also an EQ5 white Mount & tripod with Dual drives for £200, but I don't want to mess with motorised mounts yet.

Uhming and Ahhing (again!): there seems to be a lot of extra costs involved with the Lyra, so it might be easiest in my situation to plump for the TAL, With all of the glowing reports, I very much doubt I will be disappointed. The only thing is making sure it has been fully checked, cleaned and tested before despatch - that would be a must.

One thing: I am in no rush. I can take all the time I need and enjoy the experience of finding out about the equipment options and accessories.

- Tony

[TonyD]

Hi Qualia,

Wow - thanks again for your insights.

I will consider Valkanik, but the issue with having things sent rather than collected is Norwegian toll charges. I can carry into Norway goods up to £700 before I have to declare them, but sending items from commercial firms kicks in at £20! Well, I could check out where they are based and RyanAir down to them, I suppose!

I would be very happy to deal with FLO if they could really help me and check what was supplied was fully tested and working to tip-top condition when it left them. So if Steve is able to give me some assurances here, that would work very well in the TALs favour.

I will also check out AstroShop - travelling to Germany might be possible if they are based in the north.

I am looking forward to foundaplanet's report regarding the Lyra and first impressions.

Your last comments about the most useful EPs and how forgiving the long focal length of the tube are very reassuring.

Once again, many, many thanks to you (and to Mark in the previous post) for the attention and care you have taken to inform me. I appreciate your time and effort no end!

Please, if you could post up that comparison, or PM me, that would be enlightening to readd.

Best wishes

Tony

[foundaplanet]

Lyra Optic 4" f11 arrived this morning..

I only ordered it yesterday at 11.30. It is packed very very well and on first impressions I am amazed at it for its price, amazed . Glen (Lyra Optic) is a gent and I would have to say flawless in service.

More to follow..

[nightfisher]

Tony, if you speak to Steve at FLO, ask him to check a tal 100 over for you, i know he did this with my one, but dont try ringing, use the email.

Regards the classifieds here on SGL, unfortunately you have to have a min of 50 posts to view adds, and 250 to be able to post an add, this might seem harsh, but we had trouble with dealers pretending to be private individuals

[TonyD]

unfortunately you have to have a min of 50 posts to view adds, and 250 to be able to post an add

I fully understand the rules. In many ways, I am relieved, because once I can access them I will feel a bit more protected. I have also found out I have to wait 30 days from joining to access them. This does not worry me in the least! I have so many questions the 50-post threshold will quickly be reached, and I am not in a rush to buy anything just yet.

Thanks Jules.

- Tony

[nightfisher]

I have to say im in the dilemma of having the Tal and wanting the Lyra f11, but if i get the lyra i would have no choice but to rehome the Tal, i i am reluctant to do this, i have 2 large refractors the tal and my antares 105 f15, though i dont see me keeping the antares as its to long to be practical

[TonyD]

though i dont see me keeping the antares as its to long to be practical

Well make sure I get up to 50 posts and the 30-day limit before you put it up for sale on SGL!

-Tony

[Stardust]

I had the Tal 100RS, Celestron Omni 120, Celestron C100ED and Intes MN56 all out together. Yes

I'm a bit of a magpie, ooh shiny, where's my wallet! A pretty tough line up to choose from.

The Intes just wasn't getting used much, I really wanted to try a 120, which was nice. I probably should have kept the 100ED over the Tal but it was going to raise more funds and I just love the Tal.

The bottom line is, the Tal is still here and all the others are gone and replaced with a Meade 127 which is the kind of refractor I wanted to work up to.

[nightfisher]

you would not want the antares, its far to long to be practical, i use an HEQ5 and it wobbles on that, having owned one, i see why the 4" f15`s died out

[TonyD]

you would not want the antares, its far to long to be practical, i use an HEQ5 and it wobbles on that, having owned one, i see why the 4" f15`s died out

Presumably it gives some great views when it's not wobbling!

- Tony

[John]

Well make sure I get up to 50 posts and the 30-day limit before you put it up for sale on SGL!

-Tony

Just for clarity, you need 50 posts / 30 days to view the classifieds section but 250 posts to place an advert there. These rules are there for a reason of course and drawing on experiences gained from a previous classifieds feature on the forum.

[Qualia]

I wrote the following to Mike last night, and I don't think he'll mind me sharing the following...

A Very Subjective Review of the CG 5 (EQ5) and AZ4

I've got two mounts (each with a different tripod), the AZ 4 and the Celstron CG-5 which is essentially an EQ5.

I'm really happy with both and would prefer to always use the CG-5, but I sometimes travel on a bus to desert lands near where I live and I just can't manage to carry the EQ with all the other gear. Hopefully in the future - touch wood - I'll have a portable dob for these bus trips, but for now the AZ4 must suffice.

The CG-5 mount is supported by a lovely 2" steel-legged tripod. So too the AZ 4, but the quality and sturdiness of the former is a lot better.

There's a holed-tray on both set ups to keep your EPs in and whether you raise the legs to standing height or lower them for sitting, you'll find that both tripods establish a firm foundation for the 100rs.

I've had no problem with the tripod's thick plastic feet at all. The CG-5 feet are of heavy duty plastic whilst the AZ 4 are a little softer and not so heavy duty. When you check out the mount give them a tug to see if they come off or move a little. If they do, you can simply glue them on without a problem.

The CG-5 mount has a provision for visual polar alignment (you take off a kind of dust gap built into the mount and actually look through the mount) and used manually, with no Go To or tracking motors, I have found the RA and Dec knobs to be smooth and precise. Sometimes these plastic knobs wobble a little loose, they can even fall off, but you just squeeze them back in their slot as you did when first setting up the gear.

The AZ 4 is a different game. You point and aim and the ‘tracking’ is done all by your own hand – pulling and tugging - if you get my meaning? For this reason, I use the AZ4 steel leg for purely visual work and with my 4.5kg 4" f10, plus a large 9x50 viewfinder and Telrad and EP, it works absolutely fine, even at 200x. Nevertheless, I think one needs a little practice getting the balance and tension just right to one's own 'strength of tug' disposition, that is, when moving the two axis (horizontal and vertical), so that the planets or dsos don't leap out of view too often.

I have found that there is a wobble in the image if I knock the tripod or OTA and there's a couple of seconds before settledown time. Thus, I have found the AZ 4 impractical for measuring stuff like doubles, solar spots and for the ease of sketching. However, the simplicity, weight and ease of set up with the AZ 4 is brilliant. You master set up in seconds and as to its weight, it really isn't heavy and makes an excellent (at least for car-less me) a fine 'lug-and-go' set up.

Back to the CG 5.

So long as you don’t dismount the mount from the tripod, you can set up the CG 5 in minutes. I carry mine (when going away with my girlfriend) in a long bag, slip it out, put on the counter weight, level the tripod and of you go. If you dismount the mount I can imagine it will take longer to set up, but not that much longer seeing as you’re essentially screwing in a longish shaft through the tripod into the mount and tightening two screws of the alignment control.

As suggested the stability of the CG 5 far surpasses the AZ 4. Indeed, I can measure doubles with this mount to quite a high degree of magnitude - within seconds of arc - which would be impossible with the AZ 4 and its longer settle-down time if the OTA is knocked a little.

My CG-5 came with a 5kg counter balance and with the whole set up (OTA, Telrad, Viewfinder 9 x 50, EPs etc) I have seen no reason for concern. There is literally no wobble.

To my eyes, the CG-5 reveals a consistently high level of finish quality, the casting and black paint is smooth and clean, there is no issue of settledown time from vibration, and even with a firm knock on the scope, within split seconds the image returns to normality. My girlfriend bought me a bag to keep the whole thing in and if I had a car, I'd simply be using this mount all the time.

Don't get me wrong. I love the AZ4 and it gets as much use - if not more - as does the CG5, but I just prefer working with the GEM. It tracks the sky (manually) in a much more intuitive fashion (for my brain at least), you can lock down the clutches and gently follow your planet, Moon, Sun or DSO without having to tug at the axis (as with the AZ4) etc, which makes things like taking measurements, star-hopping, sketching etc so much easier. It looks stunning with the frac, like a proper professional set up and if you can get yourself a nice price, and if you like using GEMs, I really don't think you'll be doing yourself down.

To sum: the AZ 4 makes for a really nice, light, super fast set up, lug and go mount for the Tal 100rs but the CG-5 although a lot heavier offers far more quality and ease of use.

Another excellent suggestion and avenue of thought is what Mike suggested - a pilar of some sort with garden set up. I'd probably do this if we had gardens in Spain

Okay, time for my siesta and then back to work.

[TonyD]

Thank you again, Qualia. Superb and informative write-up.

- Tony

[Mike73]

I wrote the following to Mike last night, and I don't think he'll mind me sharing the following...

Not at all!!

Infact I think the 2012 SGL award for 'Ask a quick question and get a lengthy and precise answer' goes to..........QUALIA!!!!

Enjoyed reading this thread, I've made my mind up that for me a Tal or Lyra on a pier would be the best (and easiest) way to observe from home without lugging the 16" out for a quick session.

Just a case of waiting for a used one to come up for sale.