Great Global Warming Swindle (Ch4 last night)

[Becky]

and also, manufacturing a car is much, much more economically unfriendly than all the fumes it produces over its lifetime. Rather than saying "drive your car less", we should really be saying, "buy less cars and keep them longer".

Andrew

I've seen this argument before and support it totally. If you take an average (generous) of a new car every five years, then my 1973 Land Rover (Series III) has saved on the manufacture of seven cars. When you add to the fact that most of the parts on it are second hand AKA recycled then its savings have far outweighed any of it's polluting. Given the fact that I only do a couple of hundred miles a year in it too, I have to claim it to be pretty green

[darditti]

I have only just come to this thread. The issues have been pretty thoroughly gone over here, but I would add, if you want a decent balanced perspective on the Durkin film (which those who believe the Gospel according to Durkin will not want or accept), look at the Wikipedia article on the programme.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle

Also, the point raised by Kaptain Klevtzov about wate vapour was never really addressed.

Most of the greenhouse effect is caused by water vapour as this is much much higher in concentration.

The difference in the greenhouse effect that would occur if we suddenly burnt all the fossil fuels all at once, is less than the normal changes that we get on a day-to-day basis because of changes in atmospheric humidity.

What is missing from this analysis is the understanding that pressure and temperature in the Earth's atmosphere are balanced at the triple point of water, so with small changes in conditions, water exists as solid, liquid and gas on the Earth. Water vapour is the dominant greenhouse gas, but it's concentration is very sensitively related to temperature. No process is increasing the amount of water available, in the way that the burning of fossil fuels is liberating CO2. So the concentration of water vapour is a secondary or escalating effect of global warming. If other factors push the temperature up only slightly, the concentration of water vapour increases greatly, and this reinforces the warming process. It's all been thoroughly computer-modelled. Yes, there is an effect of the reflectance of cloud as well, and all that can be taken into account. It's all very similar to the process that is believed to have operated in the early history of Venus.

The direct effect of global warming on us as (mostly) UK astronomers is the increase in winter cloud cover evident over the last few years, as more water goes into the atmosphere, and we have warmer, damper winters dominated by the westerly Atlantic flow that we are currently suffering from, and probably will continue to do until about March, which is why we have nothing better to do than be on these forums.

David

[saturn5]

By the time governments decide what to do about it it will be to late to do anything anyway,or was there anything that could have been done in the first place?

Ive read the greenhouse gas theory/cosmic ray theory and one scientists saying the cosmic theory fits perfectly and the next one saying cosmic theory could only raise the temp by a maximum of 0.2C,oh yes ,the earths wobble,what effect does that have on climate,what scientific evidence do we have on that subject?None! at all..

Last year EON UK produced 26.4m tonnes of carbon dioxide,slightly more than the whole of croatia.

EON,RWE N POWER,DRAX,CORUS AND EDF produced over 100m tonnes of co2 between them,more than the entire car owning population of the UK.

It makes it difficult to see what is the point of housholds and individuals cutting their "carbon footprint" when corporate pollution remains the MAJOR problem.(even higher than F1 )

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

Last year EON UK produced 26.4m tonnes of carbon dioxide,slightly more than the whole of croatia.

EON,RWE N POWER,DRAX,CORUS AND EDF produced over 100m tonnes of co2 between them,more than the entire car owning population of the UK.

It makes it difficult to see what is the point of housholds and individuals cutting their "carbon footprint" when corporate pollution remains the MAJOR problem.(even higher than F1 )

The point is that Eon et al supply the power etc that you use in your household and you have a carbon footprint. Eon is merely the shop where you buy it, so pointing at them is ridiculous. Almost all power companies have a zero or negative carbon footprint as they use "renewable"energy themselves. I'm not sure if they use this because its a good idea or politically expedient.

Kaptain Klevtsov

[Sam Bo]

I agree with you there KK but alot of energy firms are not offsetting there carbon completely by using renewables. Many use the whole carbon offsetting schemes to make money. I dont believe it works myself. It is true that the general public can make a change if we ALL change the ways we live our lives..eg. light bulbs, stop using car, house insulation, energy efficiency, change energy supplier, local food etc etc. Im extremely scared of the Peak Oil crisis that is gonna hit the economy soon, and i reckon its gonna have a greater impact on civilisation than climate change. Once oil production starts falling, transport and food prices will increase (as they already are), and the precious economy will fall. We dont have any realistic fuel alternatives and the governments have made no real plans or investment. We cannot use Biofuels because we need the land for growing crops. Also, they can produce more CO2 than burning petrol!!! (add up fertiliser use, transport, soil emission of GHGs). We need 2.5 planets to sustain the global population (and its rising). The only sustainable country is Cuba!. Some even think we have already reached Peak Oil (we wont know until after its happened). We need twenty years to find an alternative fuel before we reach PeakOil. Add in the global problems of climate change and its quite easy to believe that civilisation (as we know it) really is gonna end sometime soon. The planet needs a major ecological and economical revolution to prevent this doom but i believe that it is possible if we all take our heads out of the sand.

Hope i havent been too gloomy for a monday morning

Sam

[Ant]

anyone read STARK by Ben Elton.?

This thread echo's a lot of what he said when he wrote the book!

Ant

[saturn5]

All this stop buying or using cars is making me feel real guilty about my Audi A4 2 litre turbo,...ok so i lied.

[Ferox]

I heard something not long ago that made quite a lot of sense. It was to do with risk assessment and went along the lines of:-

Humans may or may not be responsible for global warming so what are our options?

1 Do nothing to try and stop it

2 Do something to try and stop it

If we are not responsible and we do nothing - no problem

If we are not responsible and we do something - no problem we just make the planet a nicer place to live on

If we are responsible and we do nothing - huge problem

If we are responsible and we do something - we might safe ourselves from a global disaster

I've not quoted and I can't remember the precise terms but it's obvious there's only one intelligent way to go because the longer we as a species argue about it the less time we'll have to do anything.

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

But like the man said, its getting warmer, but is it getting worse? It might be getting better in more ways than its getting worse.

Kaptain Klevtsov

[Ferox]

Agreed, but should we take that risk?

[saturn5]

But like the man said, its getting warmer, but is it getting worse? It might be getting better in more ways than its getting worse.

Kaptain Klevtsov

Agreed, but should we take that risk?

Be on the safe side,make sure your car has air con.

[Tiny]

When I was young there was no global warming worries. The news that was endlessly discussed then was what would happen when the coal and oil supplies ran out - all of was expected to happen around the year 2,000. The bottom line was that in 2,000 they didn't run out and the world seems to have completely forgotten all the wringing of hands that went on back then that they would.

So - global warming - maybe we should sit back and smell the flowers - if they survive the acid rain and all those jet vapour trails cutting off the sun from them and ruining our starry nights.

[Sam Bo]

When I was young there was no global warming worries. The news that was endlessly discussed then was what would happen when the coal and oil supplies ran out - all of was expected to happen around the year 2,000. The bottom line was that in 2,000 they didn't run out and the world seems to have completely forgotten all the wringing of hands that went on back then that they would.

So - global warming - maybe we should sit back and smell the flowers - if they survive the acid rain and all those jet vapour trails cutting off the sun from them and ruining our starry nights.

The world has not forgotten it and it is going to run out..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

[Vega]

We ... sooo need Fusion Power to work. If we don't find an viable alternative to oil (there currently is not one) before all supply is depleted, life will be unimaginably simplified to what it is now. No Planes, No Cars, No ferries, No international imports/exports of goods (erm that includes all US/Chinese goods folks !). You could only get around the UK by electric trains, cycling or walking! (unless you are fortunate enough to have a bio-fuel / electric powered car costing an absolute bomb being the only alternatives to petrol/diesal cars).

Is this thread creeping in to political/debate territory ? {...As team of mods start to lock n' load at SGL HQ}

Matt

[Andrew*]

Is this thread creeping in to political/debate territory ? {...As team of mods start to lock n' load at SGL HQ}

These kind of threads always have a tendency to brush the political borderline, but I have to say I'm quite impressed at how well we're doing in this case.

I don't see a problem yet, but that's not to say it should be pushed

Andrew

[saturn5]

Now there's a preemptive strike if ever i say one.

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

We ... sooo need Fusion Power to work. Matt

Couldn't agree more. Free power! Imagine not having to switch the street lights on and off.

(unless you are fortunate enough to have a bio-fuel / electric powered car costing an absolute bomb being the only alternatives to petrol/diesal cars).

Matt

A lot of diesel cars can sucessfully run on Biodiesel fuel now. According to the manual, mine's not supposed to run on more than 5% biodiesel but there are those that use nothing else. Anybody watch "it's not easy being green"?

Kaptain Klevtsov

[Tiny]

Has anyone developed the heavy water engine yet? You can make heavy water with current atomic powerstations and the by product of using it is power and water.

[darditti]

You could only get around the UK by electric trains, cycling or walking!

Believe it or not, some of us do that now! And it works! (OK, you do have to hire a taxi or van from time to time, but I don't think that affects the principle.)

David

[Kaptain Klevtsov]

Has anyone developed the heavy water engine yet? You can make heavy water with current atomic powerstations and the by product of using it is power and water.

I think water engines are actually called steam engines.

How do you get power out of heavy water then?

Kaptain Klevtsov

[Tiny]

Heavy water has extra hydrogen (as in H6 not H2). The Germans made it in the war in Norway for purposes unknown and the allies were so worried that the resistance blew the ferry it being carried on. (they made a film - the heroes of Telemark - about it. I once washed my car not far from the spot using water from the lake. Didn't help the mpg though.

[supernova]

Heavy water has extra hydrogen (as in H6 not H2). The Germans made it in the war in Norway for purposes unknown and the allies were so worried that the resistance blew the ferry it being carried on. (they made a film - the heroes of Telemark - about it. I once washed my car not far from the spot using water from the lake. Didn't help the mpg though.

Lets hope it dont rain my head hurts

[MartinB]

The world and human kind are heading for disaster, we just don't know when it's going to be. But it's coming, some time. And then we'll all be cosmic dust. Makes you wonder why we bother

[SteelRat]

Makes you wonder why we bother

Oh - the futility!

[saturn5]

The world and human kind are heading for disaster, we just don't know when it's going to be. But it's coming, some time. And then we'll all be cosmic dust. Makes you wonder why we bother

The meaning of life is an elusive concept that has been the subject of much philosophical, scientific and theological speculation and ,errrr ............s.o.d it ,i'm with you guys. :laughing6: