Do you think apos will ever come down in price, given enough time?

[tenbyfifty]

Do you think the cost of the materials used in apo scopes eg fluorite will ever fall to the level of normal glass making or do you think it will always be kept high so they can sell high end kit? Are there any other types of wonder glass in development?

I realise there's more to a scope than the lenses btw.

[The Warthog]

By analogy with other products, such as alloy bicycles and graphite shafted golf clubs, I would expect that, shortly after I die, the price of APOs will come down to something I could have afforded if I'd lived. Fortunately, I did live to see affordable graphite golf clubs.

Once the price of APOs comes down to working-class prices, though, the equipment snobs won't want them any more, so they'll have to come up with something new. It's a constant spiral.

[John]

I reckon apos are coming down in price over time - but only as new players start to make them - as Skywatcher did with th ED80 and ED100 - the price for these was about 1/3 to 1/2 the going rate for an apo when they came out. I'd be suprised if makers such as Tele Vue and Takahashi produce "budget" apos as they want to keep their niche at the the top end of the market.

Another development could be some sort of enhanced apo design which would create a new top end of the market and "ordinary" apos would then get more affordable. I have noticed that this has happened with diagonals - until recently a dielectric diagonal was the thing to have but now a new model the quartz dielectric has come out and there will be a scramble by those who like to use "the best" to get the new design - watch for the ads to start to appear on for slightly used dielectric diagonals !!.

John,

North Somerset

[Rob]

I think the current 66 & 80 market bubble is looking to burst by January... get Christmas out the way and grab a bargin!!.

Just my thoughts of course.

Rob

[Brass n glass]

I think they will go on getting cheaper now that China is moving into the market in a big way. It will probably be like watches; years ago everyone had one watch and had to spend a fortnight's wages on it. Now they're much cheaper and prettier so a lot of people buy several of the things. Little apos already sell like hot cakes in many countries - much more than they do here.

[FLO]

APO scopes are falling in price.

Consider... This whole 'APO thing' arrived on the photographic market several years ago. Whilst there was less fuss amongst photographers, there was a noticeable chain of events:

First, only the rich could afford them; they were status symbols (lens elements were also small, before Canon got involved).

Then, the Japanese did get involved, improved the process and opened up the market. The rich refused to accept the Jap offerings as genuine pucker APO.

Finally, the Taiwanese and Chinese got in on the act, which lowered the price further so that your average Joe could afford it. The rich declared fluorite as 'yesterdays material' and looked for something else to spend their money on. APO photographic lenses have became so commonplace that today, manufacturers often don't bother mentioning it.

Makes you think...

PS: It was Canon (the camera/lens manufacturer) that developed the technology necessary to produce fluorite lenses up to 6" and Takahashi (friends of Canon) who first put one in an astro scope... Not a lot of people know that.

Sorry ... Didn't mean it to be such a long post :roll:

[Jamie]

Yeh you don't half go on a bit Steve

Some good and relavent info there mate.

I just wonder what "they" will use a s a replacement for proper flourite glass

as the process for making "proper" flourite glass causes too much polution.

Any ideas Steve?

[Greg]

Any ideas Steve?

I wish you wouldn't ask that question Jamie...His post will go on too long..

I can see the drop in prices in the camera industry..

But when are we going to see the drop in price for scope equipment over here compared with the states...

Bit of a loaded question I suppose....

Steve, could you limit your answer to 50 words or less.....There have been complaints that your posts are too long

[FLO]

I just wonder what "they" will use as a replacement for proper fluorite glass

as the process for making "proper" fluorite glass causes too much pollution.

I wasn't aware that fluorite was a problem.

Recently, glass manufacturers have been working to remove toxic heavy metals such as lead and arsenic from optical glass. (Interestingly, Corning, the maker of Pyrex, have led the way by replacing the heavy metals with titanium). The new eco-friendly optical glass has a higher refractive index and is both thinner and lighter for a given magnification.

Personally, I am expecting aspheric lens elements to be the next 'hot topic'. Like fluorite, it isn't new but great progress has been made in its manufacture and it has a lot to offer.

Flat-field doublet anyone 8)

[GordonCopestake]

Forget flat-field doublet, i want a colour free, flat field singlet hehe. Nice and light please!

But on a more serious note, costs tend to come down with mass production techniques. Look at the ED80 and ED100's, they are made in vast numbers and hence are the cheapest APO's on the market. As a rule the price will come down when the demand goes up. So we can all have a cheap TMB 130 when we all BUY a TMB 130. Until then they are hand made in small numbers which means the price is high. Simple economics

[FLO]

But when are we going to see the drop in price for scope equipment over here compared with the states...

Bit of a loaded question I suppose....

Thats a helluva loaded question

Lets be clear, it is not the retailers that have created the situation where we pay more in the UK. The products are priced that way when they come into the country.

[GordonCopestake]

Blame the government for wanting all your money! You pay tax when you earn your money, and you pay tax when you spend your money. You even pay tax when you save your money. Great country isn't it

[Jamie]

Blame the government for wanting all your money! You pay tax when you earn your money, and you pay tax when you spend your money. You even pay tax when you save your money. Great country isn't it

Oh what a taxing thought.

[tenbyfifty]

- until recently a dielectric diagonal was the thing to have but now a new model the quartz dielectric has come out and there will be a scramble by those who like to use "the best" to get the new design - watch for the ads to start to appear on for slightly used dielectric diagonals !!.

I noticed James has put up a glossary of astronomical terms on this site,

how about a glossary of exclusively equipment related terms eg doublet, triplet, dielectric, in fact anything you think newbies might be unfamiliar with. Photos and diagrams would help as well.

In South Wales, Di Electric is the guy who comes round to fix your telly!

[FLO]

In South Wales, Di Electric is the guy who comes round to fix your telly!

Priceless

Good suggestion

[MartinB]

I wouldn't like to be a televue/TMB shareholder right now. There will always be people with more money than sense who are prepared to pay for the ultimate quality so I think Astro-physics are safe. I read an interesting review where a guy compared a 5" meade apo with similarly sized scopes from AP and Takahashi costing several times more. He couldn't tell any difference but the owners of the other scopes were sure they could. The fact is that Chinese apos are pulling the rug from under the high end manufacturers very quickly.

[GordonCopestake]

I've seen reviews of 80mm scopes where the synta ED80 wins over scopes 5 times it's cost. I agree that cheap equipment will show you 99% of things, whereas to get that final 1% costs you LOTS more.

The £5 plossls i also own show me the stars, but the naglers I own are SO much better hehe

[russ]

At the moment the Chinese don't really have decent Apo triplet and they are lacking at the 5"+ end of the scale. Plus their engineering is still perhaps a little lacking compared to those premiums brands. But they are closing so quickly now in all areas that, as Martin says, the premium brands have got to be quaking in their boots.

I compared my ED80 to a TV76 and Tak Sky90, couldn't see much of difference myself in the eyepiece. They said i was kidding myself. I said they were just trying to justify the extra £££££ they had spent. There's a lot of telescope snobs about and they don't like the idea these Chinese/Taiwanese scopes can compete with their beloved TV/Tak/TMB's. hehehe

I agree Gordon, they are paying thousands more for that extra 1%. Perhaps my eye isn't well enough trained to see the difference. But i couldn't see it in the eyepiece and it sure as heck doesn't show in their photos.

Russ

[GordonCopestake]

Yup, a guy on CN just sold his TV76 and brought a ED80. Couldn't tell the difference and pocketed the £700 difference.

The only time i would disagree is that the naglers are much better than the £5 possls. But are they 100x better? Neah! i only buy them second hand if they are cheap enough.

[tenbyfifty]

decent Apo triplet ...

I keep reading this word 'triplet' - what excactly does it refer to and why is it better - one for my mooted technical glossary methinks.

[MartinB]

3 lens elements. Gives the lens and extra go as sorting out any chromatic aberration(refractive colour errors). Gordon, I am sure an ED80 with a nagler will give better views than a similare aperture TV with a budget EP

[GordonCopestake]

A triplet means 3 lens cemented together. Each lens brings a different colour to focus (RGB) as each of the 3 colours has a different focal point. Most achro scopes are doublets which means that only 2 of the colours are in focus at any one time. This shows as a purple fringe around bright objects (such as stars!). The word Apochromatic (APO) means without this purple colour. This is only achievable by using 3 lenses. However modern designs use an ED or flourite glass to only use 2 lenses to bring all 3 colours to focus at the same point. These doublets are not really true APO's, but they get pretty close.

[FLO]

A doublet simply means 'two' lenses and a triplet 'three'. The third lens provides (at least it should) a flat-field image without curvature - bending of the image in (pincushion) or out (barrel). Triplets are popular with imagers.

<edit> Ah, Gordon & Martin beat me to it.

[GordonCopestake]

Gordon, I am sure an ED80 with a nagler will give better views than a similare aperture TV with a budget EP

I agree

[russ]

There's only currently two 'cheapy' triplet Apo refractors available. The William Optics Zenithstar ED Triplet 80 and the Meade Series 5000 80mm. The William Optics is very nice. The Meade it appears has been done on the cheap using less than ideal glass and is currently taking quite a bit of flak around the web.

Russ